Why I Disagree With The Racial Divide

[Pommer]

Why would I need to shut up?

Am I less than anyone else in some way? Does my opinion hold less value because of my skin color?

Okay, so we’ll just repeat the last fifty years’ worth of “race-relations”?
Fine.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Okay, so we’ll just repeat the last fifty years’ worth of “race-relations”?
Fine.

Would it be acceptable for you and your children and grandchildren to be discriminated against in opportunities, jobs, education, loans, etc, for the color of their skin (whatever color that is)?

 

[Pommer]

Would it be acceptable for you and your children and grandchildren to be discrimination against in opportunities, jobs, education, loans, etc, for the color of their skin (whatever color that is)?

Just Asking Questions is a thing, but you’ve made it an art form.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just Asking Questions is a thing, but you’ve made it an art form.

Is that a tough question to answer? I'm on the no side....because I don't believe that is equal or just or fair.

I have values, and I believe the law should strive to treat everyone equally, even if it's imperfect.

Why is that hard for you to answer? If you favor race based discrimination, let's hear why.

 

[stevil]

Do you think that's true? Do you think those racist thoughts become racist behaviors if unaddressed?

Absolutely, yes.
If some people have a perception that people of a race are lazy or criminal or irresponsible then they may have some reluctance to hire people from that race.
Also as I have said to you before, many people get jobs via connections rather than via a blind assessment of CVs. and as long as people tend to handout with people of their own race and as long as people of a particular race aren't typically in high up jobs and hence not in a position of hiring others then their race are less likely to get those jobs.

It could be. It would be better if we actually examined the problem. If a group of students are doing poorly in school....and I find out the main reason is they don't attend school....calling the teachers racist won't fix a thing. It might make it worse.

When people say there is systemic racism , they aren't calling teachers racist, they aren't calling police and judges racist, they aren't calling employers racist.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Absolutely, yes.
If some people have a perception that people of a race are lazy or criminal or irresponsible then they may have some reluctance to hire people from that race.

Ok...

So there's this lady. She's a Dr, female, person of color....saying some pretty racist stuff.

A Psychiatrist Invited to Yale Spoke of Fantasies of Shooting White People

How would you address this so she doesn't harm anyone with her racism? Would you strip her of her psychiatry license/degree? What is the method?

That's real racism right there. A deep hatred of white people. Obviously, there's no way that changing all white people to conform to the views of a racist like this is possible....nor would I want to let some racist like herself influence my behavior.

We're going to have to examine her and her racism and explain why she's holding awful views, right?

When people say there is systemic racism , they aren't calling teachers racist, they aren't calling police and judges racist, they aren't calling employers racist.

I appreciate it stevil....I really do. This is like whenever Christians try to explain what god isn't to me. It means absolutely nothing at all if you can't explain what it is. I'd hope as an atheist that you would understand this...it's the exact same sophistry.

Haven't you ever asked a Christian how they can tell a miracle occurs? Isn't it always some kind of "I know it when I see it" answer?

 

[stevil]

Ok...

So there's this lady. She's a Dr, female, person of color....saying some pretty racist stuff.

A Psychiatrist Invited to Yale Spoke of Fantasies of Shooting White People

How would you address this so she doesn't harm anyone with her racism?

I couldn't read that article. I don't have an account and I don't really want to set one up.
But, it isn't illegal for a person to be racist.
It isn't illegal for a person to have fantasies, nor should it be.

Would you strip her of her psychiatry license/degree? What is the method?

I don't think we should be hunting down racists and making sure they all lose their jobs.
Is there something special about the psychiatry profession which means a person with racist fantasies is a danger to the public? IDK?
But, I would have major problems if this person refused to accept clients of a specific race, or was proven to give bad, like negligent or dangerous advice/service to clients of a specific race.

We're going to have to examine her and her racism and explain why she's holding awful views, right?

It would be beneficial to try to work out why people go down the path of racism.

I appreciate it stevil....I really do. This is like whenever Christians try to explain what god isn't to me. It means absolutely nothing at all if you can't explain what it is. I'd hope as an atheist that you would understand this...it's the exact same sophistry.

I've been down this path with you before. I went to great lengths to explain this all to you. From my perspective of course. I didn't avoid it. I tackled the challenge head on.

But unfortunately I am disheartened to see you still assuming that people who accept "systematic racism" as being real, that they consider (white) people in the system to be racists. This is why I say that I don't think you listen.
Of course my own explanation to you might not be believed by you, and is really only my own explanation, which is why I advised you to also talk to others about what they think.

If you are interested in my view it is right there in the thread in which we talked about it. You could re-read that conversation. I'll see if I can find it, I can't remember what the title of the thread was.

Haven't you ever asked a Christian how they can tell a miracle occurs? Isn't it always some kind of "I know it when I see it" answer?

Some have pointed me to Eucharistic miracles, some have talked about uncorrupted "saints" bodies.

 

[stevil]

I appreciate it stevil....I really do. This is like whenever Christians try to explain what god isn't to me. It means absolutely nothing at all if you can't explain what it is. I'd hope as an atheist that you would understand this...it's the exact same sophistry.

Here's the thread where I explained my views to you of what Systemic Racism is.
Where does this stuff come from?

There are a couple pages of others talking, but then we continued here
Where does this stuff come from?

I understand that you have talked alot about this topic, and you have talked to lots of people. So it might be easy for you to have forgotten this conversation you had with me.
It was a lengthy conversation for me. I don't have huge amounts of time to invest in conversations like this.
But if you are interested to know my position, please re-read that thread, those posts. My position hasn't changed from back then.


Here is also a decent article. It is very lengthy and through and gives lots of examples from around the world
Institutional racism - Wikipedia

The problem though, as I see it, is that a person like you, could easily read through the article and not get it, not understand what is being conveyed.
I feel that subtleties are lost on you. You have a very strong black and white opinion and this hinders your ability to understand this stuff.

One think I would like to highlight is
systematic racism cannot be reduced to individual prejudice and is not necessarily written into rules or laws but the consequences of SR result in the societal problems of under or over representation such as poor schooling, poor home ownership, high criminal rates etc.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I couldn't read that article. I don't have an account and I don't really want to set one up.
But, it isn't illegal for a person to be racist.
It isn't illegal for a person to have fantasies, nor should it be.

Ok...no thought crime. We share common ground there.

I don't think we should be hunting down racists and making sure they all lose their jobs.

Ok.

Is there something special about the psychiatry profession which means a person with racist fantasies is a danger to the public? IDK?
But, I would have major problems if this person refused to accept clients of a specific race, or was proven to give bad, like negligent or dangerous advice/service to clients of a specific race.

Or prescribe medication that harms the race she hates.

More to the point though, I asked if we should address such racist beliefs in order to try and keep them from becoming racist behavior.

She isn't white, or male, or uneducated.

How would you address it?

It would be beneficial to try to work out why people go down the path of racism.

I agree.

I've been down this path with you before. I went to great lengths to explain this all to you. From my perspective of course. I didn't avoid it. I tackled the challenge head on.

I'm genuinely sorry I don't remember this.

But unfortunately I am disheartened to see you still assuming that people who accept "systematic racism" as being real, that they consider (white) people in the system to be racists. This is why I say that I don't think you listen.

Well, I can only derive meaning from context when meaning is explicitly denied.

I admit I can be reading the context wrong.

Of course my own explanation to you might not be believed by you, and is really only my own explanation, which is why I advised you to also talk to others about what they think.

You don't think I've tried?

If you are interested in my view it is right there in the thread in which we talked about it. You could re-read that conversation. I'll see if I can find it, I can't remember what the title of the thread was.

If you can I promise I'll read it.

Some have pointed me to Eucharistic miracles, some have talked about uncorrupted "saints" bodies.

How did you come to atheism? I think we took for granted the idea that we all got there the same way because our responses look similar.

I got embarrassed. I was laughed at by a group of peers and lost confidence in my statement that I didn't believe in God. I it was years after I arrived at the position and I hadn't told anyone. I started examining my position and trying to figure out how anyone can ascertain truth. I didn't have any instructor or epistemological guide.

What I'm left with at this point, is the idea that rationality, logic, and testable evidence are very difficult to untangle because of the fallibility of perspective.

The result is I have to ask "how do you know?" whenever I see the signs of dogmatic groupthink and the group that tells me I should agree, either cannot answer the question, or says they just know...

I can't help but think them mistaken.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I also, am fully aware, that history has created the present.

For example, the situation in which Israel and Palestine are in today are the result of European and British actions.

The odd part to me is if people stop there as if European and British actions aren't the result of Ottoman and Muslim Empires before them....which were the result of Mongol, Timurid, Mughal, and Roman Empire before them.

I can go on but at some point, I'm either laying blame at the foot of all of history....or just choosing a completely arbitrary stopping point and I would be wrong.

To that point, I can either blame everyone or no one. I see no way to hold all of humanity responsible, I can hold individuals responsible for their actions...and that's it.

I cannot reasonably cast guilt upon a group I can't imagine the arrogance of imagining that such a thing is just.

 

[stevil]

How did you come to atheism?

As with everyone ever born, I was born an atheist.
I was never indoctrinated. My parents aren't religious. I've never been to church apart from some weddings and funerals.
I can't make any sense or Christianity, nor beliefs in magical invisible entities.

 

[stevil]

I can go on but at some point, I'm either laying blame at the foot of all of history....or just choosing a completely arbitrary stopping point and I would be wrong.

To that point, I can either blame everyone or no one. I see no way to hold all of humanity responsible, I can hold individuals responsible for their actions...and that's it.

This is also a misconception that I see you have.
It's not about laying blame.
It's not about trying to blame the white race.

It is about trying to address the imbalance.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is also a misconception that I see you have.
It's not about laying blame.
It's not about trying to blame the white race.

It is about trying to address the imbalance.

How?

Consider the school example above I gave earlier.

There was a story earlier this year, Baltimore school, student graduating at the middle of his class with a 0.5 GPA. The reason was he had missed something like 3-4 months of classes.

The problem is that he doesn't attend classes. His classmates don't either.

How does that have anything to do with racism? Do you imagine that his teachers are racist and that's why he and the other students aren't going to class?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can't make any sense or Christianity, nor beliefs in magical invisible entities.

Why not? Aren't the explanations of so many Christians enough?

 

[KCfromNC]

This is also a misconception that I see you have.
It's not about laying blame.
It's not about trying to blame the white race.

Yes, this is the thing which tips me off about what's the real source of these kinds of threads.

 

[Pommer]

Yes, this is the thing which tips me off about what's the real source of these kinds of threads.

When the complaint comes that:
“The system is broken in a racist way!”, immediately solicits a “It’s not White People’s fault!”, response, it let’s us know two things:

• That Whites control “the system”
• Things aren’t going to change

 

[stevil]

If you can I promise I'll read it.

Just incase you missed this post of mine

Here's the thread where I explained my views to you of what Systemic Racism is.
Where does this stuff come from?

There are a couple pages of others talking, but then we continued here
Where does this stuff come from?

I understand that you have talked alot about this topic, and you have talked to lots of people. So it might be easy for you to have forgotten this conversation you had with me.
It was a lengthy conversation for me. I don't have huge amounts of time to invest in conversations like this.
But if you are interested to know my position, please re-read that thread, those posts. My position hasn't changed from back then.


Here is also a decent article. It is very lengthy and through and gives lots of examples from around the world
Institutional racism - Wikipedia

The problem though, as I see it, is that a person like you, could easily read through the article and not get it, not understand what is being conveyed.
I feel that subtleties are lost on you. You have a very strong black and white opinion and this hinders your ability to understand this stuff.

One thing I would like to highlight is
systematic racism cannot be reduced to individual prejudice and is not necessarily written into rules or laws but the consequences of SR result in the societal problems of under or over representation such as poor schooling, poor home ownership, high criminal rates etc.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just incase you missed this post of mine

I feel like you could clarify a couple of things there....

You've said both that it's not about laying blame and...

"Racism in America is an institutional “white man’s problem visited on people of color,”
It's a generalisation of course, because non whites can also be racist.
But in USA the main racism problem is that which is put onto people of colour and primarily it is caused by white people. Not all white people and not even most white people. But to improve the situation you do need white people to address it. They need to stop assuming a black in a white neighborhood is a criminal upto no good.

I highlighted the inconsistency in your position stated here and your recent posts saying that this isn't about "blaming white people" or that it's not about individual racism even though that is exactly the example that you give.

If you are not blaming white people, why would you see the problem as stemming from them and it's their "responsibility" (which is a moral obligation that in this case, infers a moral accusation) to correct this "problem"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

When the complaint comes that:
“The system is broken in a racist way!”,

How so?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, this is the thing which tips me off about what's the real source of these kinds of threads.

And yet, in his explanation of the term...he blames the white race.