The Gap and The Sumer Creation Myth

DavidPT

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There are technically no chapters in the original manuscripts. But I do regard the chapters as being placed their by divine means. Anyways, my point here is that 2 Peter is all one letter. The theme of judgment is repeated from 2 Peter 2:5-6 to 2 Peter 3:5-7.



I see Genesis 1 being one whole six day creation and I see Peter referring to this time in 2 Peter 3:5, and then he referred to the global flood in verse 6 (2 Peter 3:6).



I just read Jeremiah 4:23-27 from the Gap Theorist viewpoint.
However, there is a problem, though.
No clear description of such rebellion of Satan exists in Jeremiah 4:23-27.
Sure, I can be imaginative and read this idea into the text and it kind of fits, but the text does not say an actual rebellion of Satan took place in this passage.



If 2 Peter 2:5-6 was not in the context to 2 Peter 3:5-7, you may be on to something, but the context is the global flood involving Noah.

A lot of these teachings come straight from Shepherd's Chapel(late Arnold Murray). I know this for a fact since I spent several years in the past discussing/debating these interpretations with Shepherd Chapel students.
 
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GenemZ

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Again, it talks in terms of pointing a person to the original languages and making one word or a phrase out to be this whole imaginary thing about a Gap Theory.

Its not one word. And I showed why it should make no difference whichever word one chooses involving the "one word" you have tunnel vision about. Look around that word in the Hebrew and find out why some insist it should have read "became." There are other words on the page, and you can not unlock your eyes from just one. As long as you do that? You do not have to rethink your erroneous position...... How convenient.
 
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DavidPT

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Its not one word. And I showed why it should make no difference whichever word one chooses involving the "one word" you have tunnel vision about. Look around that word in the Hebrew and find out why some insist it should have read "became." There are other words on the page, and you can not unlock your eyes from just one. As long as you do that? You do not have to rethink your erroneous position...... How convenient.

Could you point out where two creations fit the following, one creation followed by a recreation?

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
 
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sawdust

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How can 2 Peter 3:6 possibly not mean Noah's flood when 2 Peter 2:5 is meaning Noah's flood? None of the above has a thing to do with an alleged flood upon the earth prior to creation day 1.

Because Peter changes the subject. Chapter 2 is about keeping the righteous safe in times of judgement on the wicked. It deals with both promise of safety and warning against wickedness. Chapter 3 is about the promise to come of a perfected creation.

2 Pet.3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

That's a reference to Gen.1:1. That world of old was deluged with water which is why we find it dark, empty and chaotic in Gen.1:2.

 
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GenemZ

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A lot of these teachings come straight from Shepherd's Chapel(late Arnold Murray). I know this for a fact since I spent several years in the past discussing/debating these interpretations with Shepherd Chapel students.
Because the debate gets centered around one single word... And the earth "was"... Or, the earth "became." Its a bad argument point to decide what it means. For the context speaks a thousand words.. which gets ignored when the "detail fanatics" continue to argue over the diversion.
 
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GenemZ

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A lot of these teachings come straight from Shepherd's Chapel(late Arnold Murray). I know this for a fact since I spent several years in the past discussing/debating these interpretations with Shepherd Chapel students.
Because the debate gets centered around one single word... And the earth "was"... And, the earth "became." Its a bad argument point.
Could you point out where two creations fit the following, one creation followed by a recreation?

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
That's talking about before the "planet" earth was to be created.

Its like talking about the beginning of what we now call New York City. Its gone through different states of being. The New York City of 1848 looks nothing like the new city built on top of it!

This world was created for "man's dominion." The prehistoric world was created for angelic dominion. Satan lost his position of power after the Lord flooded the prehistoric creation and removed all heat (no more light).... The planet had turned into a giant icepack that no life could live in. That is why we find in Genesis One (in the Hebrew) the Spirit "hovering" over the waters like a hen warming her eggs... That icepack needed to be melted!

This was NYC in its earliest stages. Describing it as it was would not line up with what the current NYC stands as being.

1280px-NYC_1848.jpg
 
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DavidPT

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Could you point out where two creations fit the following, one creation followed by a recreation?

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Let me add a little commentary to this.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face(paniym) of the deep(thowm). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Gappers don't have this meaning during verse 1, but have it meaning millions or even billions of years after verse 1 instead.

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face(paniym) of the depth(thowm)

Obviously, the Spirit of God is meaning God, and the 'he' in Proverbs 8:27 is also meaning God, therefore, when he set a compass upon the face of the depth, this is meaning this---And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

A compass involves directions. A compass would be pointless in the pitch dark though, which was the initial state. So how does God then solve that problem?

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now a compass makes sense.
 
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GenemZ

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Let me add a little commentary to this.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face(paniym) of the deep(thowm). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Gappers don't have this meaning during verse 1, but have it meaning millions or even billions of years after verse 1 instead.

THAT IS "FAKE NEWS." It does not mean millions of years. Its undisclosed. Its evolutionist that insist that is so. Please get your ducks on the pond in a row.. You have been getting wrong information about the GAP Fact to prejudice your thinking.
 
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GenemZ

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Here is a really good article against the Gap Theory.

https://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-gaptheory-problems.html

What I like particularily about the article is that it tell you about the bad effects of believing in a Gap Theory has had on the familes in recent history.

The Devil suppresses the truth wherever he can.

And, with whom ever he can.

He does not want believers understanding why he is still free and allowed by God to test people after infallible God has already sentenced him to the Lake of Fire.

Why is Satan and his angels not already in the Lake of Fire now?

'Satan' means "accusing attorney." There is an appeal trial going on, and unscrupulous, evil, Satan offers no mercy. Whom ever he can deceive he will. He will pit one believer against another.

If we do not understand the prehistoric creation? We will be left with too many missing pieces from the puzzle. He knows that. You'll never will be able to get the big picture.

Problem is and why so many fail.. Some believers will not tolerate the pressures that come when resisting the Devil to fight for gaining truth. They retreat and hide behind a wall of erroneous interpretations so the pressure will leave them alone...
 
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The Devil suppresses the truth wherever he can.

And, with whom ever he can.

He does not want believers understanding why he is still free and allowed by God to test people after infallible God has already sentenced him to the Lake of Fire.

Why is Satan and his angels not already in the Lake of Fire now?

'Satan' means "accusing attorney." There is an appeal trial going on, and unscrupulous, evil, Satan offers no mercy. Whom ever he can deceive he will. He will pit one believer against another.

If we do not understand the prehistoric creation? We will be left with too many missing pieces from the puzzle. He knows that. You'll never will be able to get the big picture.

Problem is and why so many fail.. Some believers will not tolerate the pressures that come when resisting the Devil to fight for gaining truth. They retreat and hide behind a wall of erroneous interpretations so the pressure will leave them alone...

I am not really seeing how that is attached to a Gap World Viewpoint. While the Gap Theory does not teach Evolution, I see the Gap Theory as potentially leading one's children to accept an Old Earth (Which can lead to other Old Earth explanations like Evolutionary thinking). It also opens pandoras box in trying to interpret God's Word in a way that is over imaginative in seeing things in the Bible that are not clearly there, too (and claiming them as biblical fact).

So the problem with believing in a Gap Theory is two fold - IMO.
But the problem in my not believing in a Gap Theory that appears to strain the text and it is highly imaginitive? What problem is there?
 
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GenemZ

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I am not really seeing how that is attached to a Gap World Viewpoint. While the Gap Theory does not teach Evolution, I see the Gap Theory as potentially leading one's children to accept an Old Earth (Which can lead to other Old Earth explanations like Evolutionary thinking).

Sir! Evolutionist scientist think you are a silly person because they know from the data there was an old earth. Trouble happens when they will distort and exaggerate the age of the earth to fit their narrative needed for their theoretical concept of evolution to be plausible. You in your present state of ignorance leaves them wide open to take a secure stand amongst themselves. Thus, enabling them to legitimately claim that Christianity is for fantasy lovers..... For they know the earth is older than you understand.

Its ironic to what you claimed about the GAP understanding.. For when the GAP Fact is introduced and explained? The cushy carpet they stand on you have provided for them. The one they take their stand on? Gets yanked right out from under them,,, landing them hard on their gluteus maximus.

For the Bible does in fact indicate that there was an older earth than this present world we live in.

In the mean while? They love you!

For your thinking leaves them in the clear. They can smugly build each other up in your denials in what they perceive, as irrational and superstitious religion.

In contrast to your unresolved confusion? Its the GAP understanding that is able to confront them, fully armed, disarming them - making an informed Christian able to demand that they get off of God's old earth, its not theirs!

Your thinking helps the secular evolutionists in their wanting to resist Christianity. For your way of thinking makes it impossible for them to believe the Bible. For what you state contradicts real data. Again, data that they they will exploit and distort to their advantage. Yet, just the same.. data that young earthers can not refute up to a point. For this planet is many more years older than what young earthers claim it is... And, the Bible does reveal an older earth as well. The old earth may have been only thousands of years old to harbor the prehistoric worlds. Not millions as evolutionists play games with because your irrational conclusion makes them free to do so. .

Who's side are you on? The Word of God understood in accuracy? Or, the "team" of like minded believers you naturally have an affinity for and have bonded with? The road to destruction, Jesus warned. Is broad and wide. He said MANY will take that path.. Only a few will find the way to have Life more abundantly as Jesus desires all to have.

grace and peace .......
 
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Sir! Evolutionist scientist think you are a silly person because they know from the data there was an old earth. Trouble happens when they will distort and exaggerate the age of the earth to fit their narrative needed for their theoretical concept of evolution to be plausible. You in your present state of ignorance leaves them wide open to take a secure stand amongst themselves. Thus, enabling them to legitimately claim that Christianity is for fantasy lovers..... For they know the earth is older than you understand.

Its ironic to what you claimed about the GAP understanding.. For when the GAP Fact is introduced and explained? The cushy carpet they stand on you have provided for them. The one they take their stand on? Gets yanked right out from under them,,, landing them hard on their gluteus maximus.

For the Bible does in fact indicate that there was an older earth than this present world we live in.

In the mean while? They love you!

For your thinking leaves them in the clear. They can smugly build each other up in your denials in what they perceive, as irrational and superstitious religion.

In contrast to your unresolved confusion? Its the GAP understanding that is able to confront them, fully armed, disarming them - making an informed Christian able to demand that they get off of God's old earth, its not theirs!

Your thinking helps the secular evolutionists in their wanting to resist Christianity. For your way of thinking makes it impossible for them to believe the Bible. For what you state contradicts real data. Again, data that they they will exploit and distort to their advantage. Yet, just the same.. data that young earthers can not refute up to a point. For this planet is many more years older than what young earthers claim it is... And, the Bible does reveal an older earth as well. The old earth may have been only thousands of years old to harbor the prehistoric worlds. Not millions as evolutionists play games with because your irrational conclusion makes them free to do so. .

Who's side are you on? The Word of God understood in accuracy? Or, the "team" of like minded believers you naturally have an affinity for and have bonded with? The road to destruction, Jesus warned. Is broad and wide. He said MANY will take that path.. Only a few will find the way to have Life more abundantly as Jesus desires all to have.

grace and peace .......

Sorry, I am not buying what your sellin.
I am moving on.
Nothing can be gained any further from this kind of discourse or discussion.
I said what I needed to say with God's Word.
Those who have ears to hear will hear.
 
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sawdust

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Let me add a little commentary to this.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face(paniym) of the deep(thowm). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Gappers don't have this meaning during verse 1, but have it meaning millions or even billions of years after verse 1 instead.

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face(paniym) of the depth(thowm)

Obviously, the Spirit of God is meaning God, and the 'he' in Proverbs 8:27 is also meaning God, therefore, when he set a compass upon the face of the depth, this is meaning this---And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

A compass involves directions. A compass would be pointless in the pitch dark though, which was the initial state. So how does God then solve that problem?

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now a compass makes sense.

All you have managed to show is the Spirit of God was working in the same area, on the "face of the deep". Unfortunately for you, He was doing two different things. Gen.1:2 He was brooding over the surface like a mother hen. Proverbs He's marking the horizon.
 
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Davy

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When looking at words in the dictionary, I can read the Earth as being void as being defined as nothingness.

Void | Definition of Void by Webster's Online Dictionary

Without form suggests the same thing as void. While this phrase “without form and void” is used in a different context in Jeremiah 4:23-27 than in Genesis 1:2, but it does not mean that it still does not mean that the phrase still does not mean: “nothingness.” I can use the word “nothingness” in a literal way (with a literal context), and I can use the word “nothingness” in a more metaphorical way. This is how I see the phrase “without form and void” (i.e. nothingness) being used. It does not mean that the context used the second time must force a meaning upon a previous context.

That's not a valid interpretation, because it was the KJV translators that suggested the without form, and void idea, not the actual Hebrew phrase.

Right, I can say the same.
But I just do not see any clear Scritpural proofs for a Gap Theory.
They just do not exist in my King James Bible in the English.

Yeah, you keep saying that, but instead are wrongly claiming the KJV translation as the 'original' manuscript when that is not so.
 
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Davy

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Scripture intereprets Scripture. In 2 Peter 3:5-7, one judgment on the ungodly involved a flood, verse 5 and 6. The next judgment on the ungodly involves fire, verse 7. Whether it's meaning literal fire or not, that's debatable.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly

And spared not the old world(2 Peter 2:5)----And the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(2 Peter 3:5-6)----bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly(2 Peter 2:5)

You only did just what @Bible Highlighter did, you jumped from the 2 Peter 3:5-6 Scripture to the 2 Peter 2 Chapter, which is another subject.

As I said before, the 2 Peter 3:5-6 Scripture is pointing to Genesis 1, NOT the time of Noah.

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV


To study God's Word the proper way, we have to rightly divide. That means the example of Isaiah 28, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. In other words, God's Word is not read like a novel. It contains profound truths, even in short phrases. I'll break it down for you...

"that by the word of God the heavens were of old" -- that relates to Genesis 1:1 when God spoke and His creation came into existence. That definitely ain't... pointing to Noah's day.

"and the earth standing out of the water and in the water" -- that relates directly to the status of the earth in Genesis 1:6-9, with God moving the "waters" of verse 2, a portion from the earth to up above the earth to form today's sky, and then moving the rest of the waters overspread upon the earth until the dry land appears. Sorry, but Noah was not yet born when that happened.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" -- "Whereby" is a primary preposition in the Greek, pointing to two Greek words that link the previous verse with this next verse. It's like the word 'because'. It's showing WHY the earth in the previous verse was standing out of the water and in the water. That links back to the timing of 2 Peter 3:5, which is about God creating the earth in the beginning, and then its state in Genesis 1:2-9 with the earth standing out of the water and in the water. Sorry again, Noah wasn't around then.
 
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That's not a valid interpretation, because it was the KJV translators that suggested the without form, and void idea, not the actual Hebrew phrase.

Even with the interpretation upon this particular verse that you have. I still do not see how that warrants a whole imaginative worldview of a Gap. Usually Scripture has two or three witnesses. The witnesses you have brought forth are strained at best. But you can believe whatever you like. It's just not clearly shown in the Bible I have (the KJB).

You said:
Yeah, you keep saying that, but instead are wrongly claiming the KJV translation as the 'original' manuscript when that is not so.

I never said the KJB was the original manuscript. That is a false accusation I have never stated. I believe the KJB says the same thing as the original languages. I believe God's Word was preserved for today and God kept His promise as per Psalms 12:6-7 KJB.
 
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You only did just what @Bible Highlighter did, you jumped from the 2 Peter 3:5-6 Scripture to the 2 Peter 2 Chapter, which is another subject.

As I said before, the 2 Peter 3:5-6 Scripture is pointing to Genesis 1, NOT the time of Noah.

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV


To study God's Word the proper way, we have to rightly divide. That means the example of Isaiah 28, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. In other words, God's Word is not read like a novel. It contains profound truths, even in short phrases. I'll break it down for you...

"that by the word of God the heavens were of old" -- that relates to Genesis 1:1 when God spoke and His creation came into existence. That definitely ain't... pointing to Noah's day.

"and the earth standing out of the water and in the water" -- that relates directly to the status of the earth in Genesis 1:6-9, with God moving the "waters" of verse 2, a portion from the earth to up above the earth to form today's sky, and then moving the rest of the waters overspread upon the earth until the dry land appears. Sorry, but Noah was not yet born when that happened.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" -- "Whereby" is a primary preposition in the Greek, pointing to two Greek words that link the previous verse with this next verse. It's like the word 'because'. It's showing WHY the earth in the previous verse was standing out of the water and in the water. That links back to the timing of 2 Peter 3:5, which is about God creating the earth in the beginning, and then its state in Genesis 1:2-9 with the earth standing out of the water and in the water. Sorry again, Noah wasn't around then.

First, the phrase in 2 Peter 3:5, “that by the word of God the heavens were of old” is in reference to the 6 day creation prior to the global flood. Now, skip back to 2 Peter 2. Notice the word “old world” in 2 Peter 2:5 that refers to the time of Noah. So when we read 2 Peter 3: It is pointing to the heavens that were of old in 2 Peter 2 (that OLD world). Why? Because it's the context!

Second, I know this could be read in a way that could fit the Gap Theory Worldview but the verse says that there are those who are willfully ignorant of this fact. The Gap Theory Worldview is not obvious. Even you will admit that it takes the Hebrew to really see it. So it's not obvious. So it cannot be referring to a Gap Worldview. It can only be referring to an obvious story talking about the global flood that people today even ignore and say that the narrative of Noah's story is referring to a local flood, or no global flood happened at all, etc.

Three, the ungodly being judged is not another subject. It's the same theme being discussed of which you can read in 2 Peter 2:5-6, and 2 Peter 3:7. Notice the words in red below between 2 Peter 2, and 2 Peter 3. The same subject of judgment upon men is being discussed.

“And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5-6).

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:7).
 
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I am not selling what can not be bought...... Its freely given.

Good bye.

Sorry, I don't believe the Gap Theory is in reference to what the Bible actually teaches. It is not the milk that one can buy without price.

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” (Isaiah 55:1).
 
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