An Adventist view of New Covenant vs Old Covenant

[BobRyan]

Since many discussions with Seventh-day Adventists eventually get the point of talking about New Covenant vs Old Covenant - and how that relates to Adventist doctrine regarding the Commandments of God - I think it would be helpful to have a "reference thread" that deals with "definition of terms" so that when one person says "I am talking about A" the other person says "Ok I understand what you mean when you say A".

1. New Covenant an Individual Covenant– Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12

• The (One Gospel Gal 1:6-9) of all ages ... preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
  
• Made with Israel (the people of God)
  
• Moral Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. New Birth, New Heart
• Adoption into the family of God
• Forgiveness of sins
• “Sin IS transgression of the Law” even in the NT – 1 John 3:4
  • So then: Still a sin to take God’s name in vain (for example)
• The moral law of God written on the heart “includes” the unit of TEN where “The first commandment with a promise” is “Honor your father and mother”
• One person in a household may be under the New Covenant while another person in the same household may still be under the old.

2. Old Covenant (two forms)
a. As Nation Covenant at Sinai (Only a “type” of the covenant with all mankind “obey and Live”)

• The newly formed Nation of Israel was to “Obey and Live”
  
• Not made with individual , not broken by individual
  • Individuals at Sinai that dishonored parents or stole from a neighbor – did not break national covenant
  • Individuals at Sinai that broke the Sabbath – did not break national covenant though they were doomed as individuals
• Contains the moral law of God that defines what sin is.
• Includes the TEN spoken directly by God to Israel and written with His finger on stone.
• Also included civil and ceremonial laws etc.
• If the nation broke the Covenant they would no longer be God’s chosen people, but individuals in the nation (like Moses ) could still be saved.

b. As an Individual Covenant – with our first parents and mankind

• Adam and Eve – “obey and live” – one sin and that would doom man.
• Contains the moral law of God that defines what sin is (Rom 3:19-20, 1 John 3:4).
• All mankind doomed to this very day under the “obey and live” rule for all have sinned. Rom 3:19-20,23
• An individual in a given household may be under the New Covenant while another person in that same household is still under the old covenant

 

[BobRyan]

I am not necessarily arguing about the terms - just want people to have a good idea of what is meant when I use those terms.

Everyone has free will and can choose as they wish - I am just using this as a helpful reference for what I mean when I use the term.

 

[BobRyan]

One more term/definition

Prescriptive Law:
1. Defines what is right vs wrong. Defines what sin is 1 John 3:4 "Sin is transgression of the Law" even in the NT (- see also Romans 3:19-20)
2. When it ends: Take these examples of prescriptive laws:

• man's command: 55 mile an hour speed limit
  
• God's command "Do no take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7.

This sort of command/law does not get deleted as soon as one person complies with it.

Predictive Law:
1. Predicts some future event. Usually a ceremony predicting a future event.
2. When that event is accomplished the prediction ends.

Examples:
ceremonial "Sacrifices and offerings" ceased at the cross - Heb 10:4-12
"Christ our Passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5.

 

[RBPerry]

So your point is? This will get around to the Saturday Sabbath and that has been beaten to death.
Since we don't have the original stone that God wrote the commandments on he could have very well said keep "a" sabbath day.
Your biggest problem is that the implication is God waited fifteen hundred years and all of a sudden said. hey look, these people are keeping Sunday instead of Saturday. We better get that corrected and I know just the people to fix it. Now doesn't that make a lot of sense?
I sometimes wonder if the "great awakening" wasn't inspired by Satan to help divide the church.
Like Jesus said "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
Paul said "All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable". What did he mean by that?
There is no question the Jews kept Saturday as their sabbath, we protestants decided to keep Sunday, besides most of us are gentiles anyway. Take a hard look at Paul's messages to the gentiles.
Here is a funny one, go around and ask most people working five days a week. What is the seventh day, half of them will say Sunday, why, because they work Monday through Friday.
The point is God said the seventh day is for rest. We protestants keep Sunday, and many of us will not conduct any business on Sunday or make other work on Sunday. However that is a very few anymore.

 

[rockytopva]

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Galatians 4:13

 

[pasifika]

Since many discussions with Seventh-day Adventists eventually get the point of talking about New Covenant vs Old Covenant - and how that relates to Adventist doctrine regarding the Commandments of God - I think it would be helpful to have a "reference thread" that deals with "definition of terms" so that when one person says "I am talking about A" the other person says "Ok I understand what you mean when you say A".

1. New Covenant – Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12

• The (One Gospel Gal 1:6-9) of all ages ... preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
  
• Made with Israel (the people of God)
  
• Moral Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. New Birth, New Heart
• Adoption into the family of God
• Forgiveness of sins
• “Sin IS transgression of the Law” even in the NT – 1 John 3:4
  • So then: Still a sin to take God’s name in vain (for example)
• The moral law of God written on the heart “includes” the unit of TEN where “The first commandment with a promise” is “Honor your father and mother”

2. Old Covenant (two forms)
a. As Nation Covenant at Sinai (Only a “type” of the covenant with all mankind “obey and Live”)

• The newly formed Nation of Israel was to “Obey and Live”
  
• Not made with individual , not broken by individual
  • Individuals at Sinai that dishonored parents or stole from a neighbor – did not break national covenant
  • Individuals at Sinai that broke the Sabbath – did not break national covenant though they were doomed as individuals
• Contains the moral law of God that defines what sin is.
• Includes the TEN spoken directly by God to Israel and written with His finger on stone.
• Also included civil and ceremonial laws etc.
• If the nation broke the Covenant they would no longer be God’s chosen people, but individuals in the nation (like Moses ) could still be saved.

b. As moral Covenant – with mankind

• Adam and Eve – “obey and live” – one sin and that would doom man.
• Contains the moral law of God that defines what sin is (Rom 3:19-20, 1 John 3:4).
• All mankind doomed to this very day under the “obey and live” rule for all have sinned. Rom 3:19-20,23

Hello Bob, is Adam and Eve under the old covenant (covenant establish in Sinai)?

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob, is Adam and Eve under the old covenant (covenant establish in Sinai)?

1. In Gen 2 they were under the "Obey and Live" form of "Old Covenant" as per the OP. As long as they obeyed God they had no problem. They were created sinless.

2. As for "after the fall" -- and the "Nation Church" form of Old Covenant at Sinai - they were not a nation after the fall or before it, they had no priests or temple or sanctuary. But they were under the same sort of animal sacrifice system as at Sinai once they had fallen.

3. However as fallen humans they had the same Gospel New Covenant as we see in Jer 31:34 - this is the "one Gospel" Paul mentions in Gal 1:6-9 that Abraham was also under according to Gal 3:8

 

[BobRyan]

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Galatians 4:13

And still a sin to "take God's name in vain" even in the NT.

As Paul says - the same Unit of TEN applies to Christians in the NT where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2.

No wonder Paul says "what matters is keeping the CommandmentS of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

So your point is? This will get around to the Saturday Sabbath and that has been beaten to death. .

My point is that all these threads focused on something that Adventists believe - eventually get around to discussing Old Covenant vs New Covenant.. and that "definitions matter".

 

[rockytopva]

And still a sin to "take God's name in vain" even in the NT.

As Paul says - the same Unit of TEN applies to Christians in the NT where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2.

No wonder Paul says "what matters is keeping the CommandmentS of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Love in honoring the parents
Love in not blaspheming
Love in worshipping Christ on the first day of the week...

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. - 1 Corinthians 16:2

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. - Acts 20:7

I don't think it was the Apostles intention to recreate the sect of the Pharisees!

 

[pasifika]

1. In Gen 2 they were under the "Obey and Live" form of "Old Covenant" as per the OP. As long as they obeyed God they had no problem. They were created sinless.

2. As for "after the fall" -- and the "Nation Church" form of Old Covenant at Sinai - they were not a nation after the fall or before it, they had no priests or temple or sanctuary. But they were under the same sort of animal sacrifice system as at Sinai once they had fallen.

3. However as fallen humans they had the same Gospel New Covenant as we see in Jer 31:34 - this is the "one Gospel" Paul mentions in Gal 1:6-9 that Abraham was also under according to Gal 3:8

Both covenants (old &new) have the same "obey and live" condition, But the old covenant wasn't establish until Sinai..(with animal blood).

 

[BobRyan]

Both covenants (old &new) have the same "obey and live" condition, But the old covenant wasn't establish until Sinai..(with animal blood).

Adam and Eve were clearly under the ultimate "Obey and Live" contract/agreement as Romans 5 points out, as Genesis 3:1-4 points out as well as all of Genesis 3. All it took was "one sin" to end the entire Garden of Eden arrangement and transition to "you will return to dust".

Animal blood was offered by Able and not by Cain - God accepted Able's sacrifice.
Animal blood was offered by Noah in Genesis 8:20.
Animal blood was offered in the book of Genesis - by Abraham

 

[BobRyan]

rockytopva said: ↑
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Galatians 4:13

And still a sin to "take God's name in vain" even in the NT.

As Paul says - the same Unit of TEN applies to Christians in the NT where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2.

No wonder Paul says "what matters is keeping the CommandmentS of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Love in honoring the parents
Love in not blaspheming

John 14:15 "if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

But the word "Love" does not have the "details" in it that you see in God's Word in places like Exodus 20 where God says not to make any graven image, bow down and serve those it represents etc. For those kinds of "details" one needs to accept the Word of God and read the Word of God -- which those who Love God would naturally do.

Love is not on the path to deleting God's Word - it accepts it, reads it, obeys it.

 

[pasifika]

Adam and Eve were clearly under the ultimate "Obey and Live" contract/agreement as Romans 5 points out, as Genesis 3:1-4 points out as well as all of Genesis 3. All it took was "one sin" to end the entire Garden of Eden arrangement and transition to "you will return to dust".

Animal blood was offered by Able and not by Cain - God accepted Able's sacrifice.
Animal blood was offered by Noah in Genesis 8:20.
Animal blood was offered in the book of Genesis - by Abraham

Thanks Bob, but Adam and Eve were not under the "obey and live" agreement as they weren't dead when God created them (they were sinless). Only when they sin then the "obey and live" condition applies. As God provide the initial sacrifice for their sin in the beginning..and the announcement of "obey and live" condition which is believe the Good news Genesis 3:15

The "obey and live " criteria in Sinai when the law was given to Israel is not the same as the one with Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham had...

 

[rockytopva]

John 14:15 "if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

But the word "Love" does not have the "details" in it that you see in God's Word in places like Exodus 20 where God says not to make any graven image, bow down and serve those it represents etc. For those kinds of "details" one needs to accept the Word of God and read the Word of God -- which those who Love God would naturally do.

Love is not on the path to deleting God's Word - it accepts it, reads it, obeys it.

Do you still keep this commandment?

And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. - Numbers 3:10

 

[rockytopva]

And...
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Galatians 5:2-4

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. - James 2:10

 

[BobRyan]

Do you still keep this commandment?

And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. - Numbers 3:10

Hebrews 7 says the laws for earthly priesthood ended at the cross as Christ became our High Priest.
Hebrews 10:4-12 says laws regarding animal sacrifice ended at the cross

Bible details that even the non-Bible-Sabbath keeping scholarship of almost all denominations admits to -
including -
D.L. Moody
Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
C.H. Spurgeon
R.C. Sproul
...

 

[BobRyan]

And...
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Galatians 5:2-4

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. - James 2:10

James 2 is not condemning the law to not take God's name in vain nor arguing that we need to be careful not to keep it - else we would have to "obey too much" .


Gal 5 does not condemn keeping God's commandments

1 Cor 7:19 contrasts ceremonial law with the moral law of God "circumcision does not matter - what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and follow His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

Where the Commandments of God include "honor your father and mother" as being the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of Ten. Eph 6:1-2

Bible details that even the non-Bible-Sabbath keeping scholarship of almost all denominations admits to -

 

[now faith]

The Law referring to the Law of Moses, is proprietary to the Children of Isreal before the New Covenant.
The Law is not synonymous with sin, it is impossible to keep without sin.
Christ fulfilled the Law, and took on the Curse of the Law.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It is The everlasting Gospel that will never pass away, Christ said Before Abraham was I Am.

It is God's Word that is eternal, The Law of Moses is the only oracle of God that has been not required in the New Covenant, it was fulfilled under a better Covenant through Christ Jesus.

We cannot keep the Law of Moses because if we break one aspect we have broken it all.
We no longer need a blood sacrifice as atonement for sin.
Christ died once His Blood on the Mercy seat of The Father paid for all sin.
If a person wants to keep parts of the Law in a vow to God that is fine, just don't break your vow.

Romans 14 explains in detail the aspects of keeping a vow, and how we should not tempt our brothers who do keep a vow to God.
Law is not Grace, we are saved by Grace through faith not works.
Whatever is not done in faith is sin.

 

[now faith]

James 2 is not condemning the law to not take God's name in vain nor arguing that we need to be careful not to keep it - else we would have to "obey too much" .


Gal 5 does not condemn keeping God's commandments

1 Cor 7:19 contrasts ceremonial law with the moral law of God "circumcision does not matter - what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and follow His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

Where the Commandments of God include "honor your father and mother" as being the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of Ten. Eph 6:1-2

Bible details that even the non-Bible-Sabbath keeping scholarship of almost all denominations admits to -

Now we have clarity, it is not the law of Moses that is honored by Christians.
As far as dietary ordinance that would be a vow or a sin if broken?