There are some interesting pieces to a puzzle - a thread within a thread - coming out of this thread for me. I'm going to flag some of you and briefly (not my strong-suit, which I'm sure will be displayed again) and highlight why:
Christ’s humanity goes largely unexplored by the mainstream
Agreed as I also brought up in
#98 and responded to in
#156.
#1. Point being
Christ's humanity and
our first-born brother (Romans 8) raised by
our Father.
So by "personally experiencing the sin problem," you mean his struggle was every bit, and more, of what the struggle with temptation to sin can be, but not that he experienced the problem of sin itself?
Essentially agreed and responded to in
#176 and others.
#2. Point being from Hebrews 4:15
the "similarity" of Christ's humanity, but not the same as ours, as He did not have sin. The virgin birth.
But the involuntary impulse itself -- the initial feeling, lasting seconds...is merely the human body in its nature it seems, though we are changed, given a new heart, by Him, and so this tendency is less strong over time also
Agreed and never responded to by me.
#3. The Point:
Jesus humanity and our humanity: "we are changed, given a new heart, by Him"
I just did a quick search and the same root is used in Matthew, Mark, and Hebrews: peirazo.
Defining "temptation" as brought up by fhansen.
My question back to public hermit in
#153 was whether or not "temptation" was ever spoken of in Scripture as being related to the heart. So far unanswered by any of us.
#4. The Point: Jesus humanity and our rebirth with a new heart.
(Also to public hermit, once again: good thread! Thanks!)
Here we have an interplay between God's will and man's will within Jesus, both appropriate, but with God's higher will winning. And related to this, if not for Christ's aversion we surely wouldn't know with the same dramatic effect just how powerful His-God's-will and His love for us is, just how much He desires the greatest good for man, his salvation.
Agreed. Personally I always appreciate when fhansen chimes in and how he remains in a focus of God's love. As his posts quote: "It is love alone that gives worth to all things." Teresa of Avila
#5. The Point: The "interplay between God's will and man's will within [the humanity of] Jesus."
The request itself is subordinated in obedience, it provides a helpful model for us, and it helps illustrate the depth of God's love.
Agreed and appreciated how succinct is the statement "The request itself is subordinated in obedience." I and others stated in several posts how Hebrews 5:8 talks about Jesus having learned obedience.
#6. The Point: obedience - "it provides a helpful model for us." And "God's love."
There have been several other good posts, but I'll stop with these for now.
Firstly, to answer the OP: Temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted. Jesus requested a change in God's will. None of this was sin, as Jesus was sinless. Temptations become sin when our desires bait us, catch us, drag us away, conceive, and produce sin (James 1:15). No tempting/baiting of Jesus ever succeeded in catching Him and dragging Him away.
And this is where this post begins:
What prompted this post this earlier a.m. was something that came out of a discussion with Clare73:
So, it's very clear here that He was tempted/tested in a similar enough fashion to us, but not precisely the same as He was without sin. He learned obedience without possessing sin. We are learning obedience dealing with sin under subjection to God's grace. Similar enough. Not the same. He fully understands it all having also learned obedience through being tempted and experiencing the weakness of flesh even without sin.
Some rambling thoughts based upon all the above input and context of what I see as a thread within a [good] thread:
1 # 2: Jesus was given a human body that was not the same as ours, but similar enough to: provide for Him the ability to remain without sin; learn obedience through sufferings against temptations; experience the weakness of flesh breaking down in an effort to assert itself against His mental agony in spirit to complete our Father's will; and qualify to accomplish what God, in love, wanted/needed to do to accomplish our salvation.
#1 - 2: Jesus is our first born brother to whose likeness we are being conformed (Romans 8:29). Shouldn't we be
focusing on Him not only as our Lord, but just as much, on Him being our first-born brother, and the new creation/humanity (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15) we are in Christ and thus be focusing much more on what we're supposed to be becoming?
If He, the "last Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45) was given a humanity that was similar enough to ours to qualify and accomplish as He did, then what in turn is this new birth we've been given and how vast is its similarity to the humanity of Jesus Christ? He is our model. He is our brother. Our same Father is involved in raising us. We interact with the same Spirit of God. We have the same will and standards of God excepting some things that have been fulfilled and changed in Christ.
#3 - 4 What is this new heart of flesh we've been given, coupled with having been given God's Spirit? I know a few things for certain: God can and is writing His Law on new hearts of flesh vs. hearts of stone, so we can obey Him (the (Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:26-27; 2 Corinthians 3:3; Jeremiah 31:33; etc.). And our consciences are being perfected under the new Great High Priesthood as never before His being in this position (Hebrews 9).
Was this the heart Jesus had? As a young boy (Luke 2:43) Jesus had been raised by our Father waking Him each morning and teaching Him (Isaiah 50:4-6). By the age of 12 He was spiritually strong / filled with wisdom, His knowledge and understanding amazed the teachers of Israel, and He was focused on the necessity of being in the things of His/our Father (Luke 2:40-49). Even in His sinless body He learned obedience, suffered, and experienced the body of flesh tugging at Him to do what comforted it. What can and is God doing with such a new heart He's given to us? What are we distracted from and not getting for the past 2,000 years? Can this new heart tempt us? What is the power of this new heart in us in Christ indwelt by Him / with His Spirit?
#5 - 6: The interplay of God's will and our will has been modeled successfully for us by our elder brother and Lord in a humanity similar enough to ours to show us it can be done. At the end of the analysis it's all about learning obedience, which is love for God (1 John 5:3; John 14:15, John 14:23-24), required of us for loving one another (1 John 5:4), directly associated with Faith (Luke 6:46 and many others), directly correlated to being born from God (1 John 3:9) and being God's children (1 John 3:10) and to several other vital words and concepts of our Faith.
Hebrews 10 is definitely worth a read again: He was given a body prepared for Him when God no longer wanted sacrifices for sins, and so He could do God's will - God took away the sacrifice system to institute the do-His-will system and:
NKJ Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Sanctified/Set apart for what?:
Hebrews 10:16-17 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
And verses 10:24-31 in this context, explain why we're to be assembling and paying attention to one another (10:25-26 have been thrown at me too many times to get me to come to assemblies that are not doing much of any of the context here and who don't want to consider what the context and reason is for assembling).
FWIW: I think the similarity between Him and us in Him is way more than we think it is. I think we're way behind the curve given 2,000 years of this. I think Cormack nailed it when stating this: "Christ’s humanity goes largely unexplored by the mainstream" and I think my earlier linked comments were in agreement. I think the bulk of this thread has been very productive and it's refreshing to know that there are solid thinkers among my siblings and His. It reveals that His Ekklesia is alive and well and interspersed among denominations and locales, which all makes Scriptural sense.
There are some interesting things going on out there stemming from the persecutions against free speech, and business as usual in things called "church." Maybe at some point we get it and start becoming what we're created to be and in this defeating the temptations/testings pressured against us no matter where they emanate from, or what they are. Assembling to literally "irritate" one another to love and good works might become the norm.
Hitting Post Reply before I change my mind. Your thoughts have been very refreshing and indicative of what we should be able to do in assembling. Calvin, Aquinas, and all those who pondered all these things are valuable, but it's not done, and all of us should be considering and working on why this is.