Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

Maria Billingsley

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I agree, it's cutting a fine hair. But, I think it matters. I have always been of the position that temptation is not, in and of itself, sin. And I am happy to continue holding that position. But, if I do, then how do I explain that a desire for something sinful is not, in and of itself, sinful? But, yeah, I would go with you and Augustine and call it "weakness."
Or call it covetousness. That is a sin. :scratch:
 
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AubreyM

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Today believe the only sin a Christian can commit is not having love towards God, and not having loves towards their neighbor.

Because Jesus christ said to Love God, and Love our neighbour as ourself.

All other sins have been paid for though we lay down our old lifestyle before Christ, and put on Christ and walk in newness of the spirit in love for God and Love for Others.

God's grace is not a license to keep living in our natural hateful, deeming way towards others, or towards God -> or live it up like their is no tomorrow, we lay our lives old lifestyle down and walk in the newness of life by the spirit that God gives and live towards Him,

and that is tough and it why we need Christ Jesus, and the Father to help us in our daily walk.

@public hermit
 
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Pavel Mosko

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That's an odd position to hold, in my opinion. What would make this opinion even more controversial is the implications it has for our Lord's Incarnation. I think the orthodox position is that our Lord was tempted, but did not sin. If Calvin argues that our Lord was tempted, then (based on this passage) he would also have to conclude that our Lord sinned in even being tempted. I seriously doubt Calvin would be comfortable with that conclusion (although, Calvin is comfortable with all kinds of positions that make most folks uncomfortable). So, assuming the above passage is his settled position, Calvin is not being consistent.

At any rate, what do you think. Is being tempted itself a sin?

Wow that point really came up in that previous thread. Basically Apollinarianism, that Christ had to be not just true God, but true Man. It is possible to go too overboard on Christ's Divinity, where you see him as being "God in a Man suit" as one friend put it, or "God in a Bod" as one pastor said(the famous Mark Driscol of Mar's Hill Seattle seemed to advocate in one sermon).

Christ has more than a body, but a human soul etc. to go with that body, and seeing Him as Beyond temptation inadvertently screws a lot of things up. It basically would be cheating as temptation goes, because he is suppose to understand our condition and be our example but if he bounces temptation off him, like the armor plating of a battle ship vs. a BB gun that is much different than being truly human. It also screws up the Biblical notion put forth from the Church fathers that "What is not assumed cannot be healed / redeemed".
 
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public hermit

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Personally I would say that temptation itself is not sinful. (If it is we are all in a lot of trouble...) However, when I read this verse "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mathhew 5:28. I can see where someone could make the argument even thinking about sin (temptation) is sinful. That is quite the high bar!

That is an interesting passage, now that you point it out. Here, sin is equated with temptation, I think. Interesting. How could Jesus be tempted without some mental assent to the temptation, or at least some inner desire for the thing that tempts? I'm not saying he did, God forbid! I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.
 
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public hermit

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Wow that point really came up in that previous thread. Basically Apollinarianism, that Christ had to be not just true God, but true Man. It is possible to go too overboard on Christ's Divinity, where you see him as being "God in a Man suit" as one friend put it, or "God in a Bod" as one pastor (the famous Mark Driscol of Mar's Hill Seattle seemed to advocate in one sermon).

Christ has more than a just having a body, but had a human soul etc. to go with that body, and seeing Him as Beyond temptation inadvertently screws a lot of things up. It basically would be cheating as temptation goes, because he is suppose to understand our condition and be our example but if he bounces temptation off him, like the armor plating of a battle ship vs. a BB gun that is much different than being truly human. It also screws up the Biblical notion put forth from the Church fathers that "What is not assumed cannot be healed / redeemed".

Right, so I guess we have to conclude that Jesus experienced the desire for the things that tempt, but didn't give into the desire. In other words, tempting desires are not sinful. I guess that makes sense, although it is odd to thing that Jesus might have actually desired tempting things. Maybe I have too much "God in the bod" in my thinking, lol. :)
 
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AubreyM

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You and pavel make good points. @Maria Billingsley thank you for your points too.

Personally see it as God helping in and through His Son for him not to fall into temptation, though he was tempted in all things.

Here is Young's Literal

Hebrews 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin;

Talking about Jesus how he was tempted in all things, I believe God with Him helped him to draw back those desires and making the action of choice to partake in any sin.

So we have someone we can relate to -> in seeing the power of God inner working with in the Man JEsus Christ our Lord the Son of God in not falling into temptation, though the desire would have been there, he did not act upon it.
 
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jacks

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So we have someone we can relate to -> in seeing the power of God inner working with in the Man JEsus Christ our Lord the Son of God in not falling into temptation, though the desire would have been there, he did not act upon it.

This seems to make sense, though I would add that not only did He not act upon the desire, He didn't dwell upon it. Which may be what is meant by "lusting" in the Matthew 5:28 verse.
 
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public hermit

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This seems to make sense, though I would add that not only did He not act upon the desire, He didn't dwell upon it. Which may be what is meant by "lusting" in the Matthew 5:28 verse.

That makes sense. The word for lust (epithumeo) in that passage doesn't mean simple desire, but strong desire. The idea is to set one's heart on the thing desired. So, perhaps, we can say that Jesus experienced initial desire to sin, he just didn't set his heart on it. Or as you put it, didn't dwell on it.
 
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Clare73

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See, I agree. But putting that to the side, for arguments sake. If I am tempted by a desire that is contrary to God's will, isn't that sin? If there is within me even the slightest desire (which is what temptation is), isn't that sinful?
Does it matter when we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?

(Do troglodytes live in trailer homes?)
 
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AubreyM

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Just reading in Colossians 3

If you been risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God, set your affections on things above and not on things on the earth.

This is what Jesus Christ done, He was constantly asking His Father For His will to be done and not Jesus own will, because he had his own choice to set his mind on things on heaven or things on earth. His kingdom was of heaven and not earth. (I believe somewhere in the gospel)
 
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public hermit

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Does it matter when we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?

(Do troglodytes live in trailer homes?)

This particular troglodyte does not. But, there is no shame for those who do. :)

I think it matters, in spite of the imputation, or impartation, of Christ's righteousness. Unless he was tempted as we are, can he help us overcome our own struggles?
 
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Clare73

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This particular troglodyte does not. But, there is no shame for those who do. :)

I think it matters, in spite of the imputation, or impartation, of Christ's righteousness. Unless he was tempted as we are, can he help us overcome our own struggles?
Christ had no unregenerate disposition toward sin.

Our sinful desires (desires in themselves sinful, not good desires misapplied) come from our sinful nature.
Christ had no such nature.
But there is no sin in the inclination to avoid pain, abandonment, punishment, etc. when you are innocent, and having to continually choose to accept it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I think most Christians would say that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin. However, I came across a contrary view regarding temptation held by John Calvin. Calvin, who usually agrees with virtually anything Augustine says, takes a different view of temptation.

"Content to designate it with the term "weakness," he (Augustine) teaches that it becomes sin only when either act or consent follows the conceiving or apprehension of it, that is, when the will yields to the first strong inclination. We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God. Indeed, we label "sin" that very depravity which begets in us desires of this sort" (Institutes III.III.10).

Notice with the statement you underlines, ("We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God"), that Calvin does not make it obvious what the "it" is that he refers to. It may be he meant the use of 'it' in this way: "...it is sin to give temptation the time of day"

If, in Calvin's mind, the temptation and the flirting with it are one and the same, (which I doubt), then yes, he disagrees with Augustine, but it seems to me he only disagrees with Augustine's use of 'weakness' as a poor descriptor of what is going on with the 'old man' with temptation.

One possibility is that Calvin is being inconsistent. Perhaps in other places he argues that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin but then fails to be consistent in this passage. As it stands, this passage clearly indicates that temptation is sin. In fact, the nature that could possibly sin (i.e. depraved nature) is itself sin, according to Calvin.

As I showed above, I disagree that it is clear what he is saying. Either way, he is clear that the temptation does not in and of itself = sin, as the sin is not manifested until the will does certain things upon temptation.

That's an odd position to hold, in my opinion. What would make this opinion even more controversial is the implications it has for our Lord's Incarnation. I think the orthodox position is that our Lord was tempted, but did not sin. If Calvin argues that our Lord was tempted, then (based on this passage) he would also have to conclude that our Lord sinned in even being tempted. I seriously doubt Calvin would be comfortable with that conclusion (although, Calvin is comfortable with all kinds of positions that make most folks uncomfortable). So, assuming the above passage is his settled position, Calvin is not being consistent.
Still wrong, I think. I think you mistake what Calvin is saying.
 
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Clare73

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This particular troglodyte does not. But, there is no shame for those who do. :)

I think it matters, in spite of the imputation, or impartation, of Christ's righteousness. Unless he was tempted as we are, can he help us overcome our own struggles?
Can God help us overcome our own struggles?
 
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Jesusfann777888

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I think most Christians would say that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin. However, I came across a contrary view regarding temptation held by John Calvin. Calvin, who usually agrees with virtually anything Augustine says, takes a different view of temptation.

"Content to designate it with the term "weakness," he (Augustine) teaches that it becomes sin only when either act or consent follows the conceiving or apprehension of it, that is, when the will yields to the first strong inclination. We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God. Indeed, we label "sin" that very depravity which begets in us desires of this sort" (Institutes III.III.10).

One possibility is that Calvin is being inconsistent. Perhaps in other places he argues that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin but then fails to be consistent in this passage. As it stands, this passage clearly indicates that temptation is sin. In fact, the nature that could possibly sin (i.e. depraved nature) is itself sin, according to Calvin.

That's an odd position to hold, in my opinion. What would make this opinion even more controversial is the implications it has for our Lord's Incarnation. I think the orthodox position is that our Lord was tempted, but did not sin. If Calvin argues that our Lord was tempted, then (based on this passage) he would also have to conclude that our Lord sinned in even being tempted. I seriously doubt Calvin would be comfortable with that conclusion (although, Calvin is comfortable with all kinds of positions that make most folks uncomfortable). So, assuming the above passage is his settled position, Calvin is not being consistent.

At any rate, what do you think. Is being tempted itself a sin?

you can be tempted because you are fallen, God can't be tempted because He Without Exception
IS Holy.

when it come's to your flesh The Bible Stipulate's to crucify your lustfully desires to avoid Condemnation.

Living a Holy Life is meant to produce a renewal of the mind and a revulsion to the carnal, temptation can not be defeated physically because your flesh is responsible for your lust, therefore it must be defeated By God in your life.
 
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lsume

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I think most Christians would say that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin. However, I came across a contrary view regarding temptation held by John Calvin. Calvin, who usually agrees with virtually anything Augustine says, takes a different view of temptation.

"Content to designate it with the term "weakness," he (Augustine) teaches that it becomes sin only when either act or consent follows the conceiving or apprehension of it, that is, when the will yields to the first strong inclination. We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God. Indeed, we label "sin" that very depravity which begets in us desires of this sort" (Institutes III.III.10).

One possibility is that Calvin is being inconsistent. Perhaps in other places he argues that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin but then fails to be consistent in this passage. As it stands, this passage clearly indicates that temptation is sin. In fact, the nature that could possibly sin (i.e. depraved nature) is itself sin, according to Calvin.

That's an odd position to hold, in my opinion. What would make this opinion even more controversial is the implications it has for our Lord's Incarnation. I think the orthodox position is that our Lord was tempted, but did not sin. If Calvin argues that our Lord was tempted, then (based on this passage) he would also have to conclude that our Lord sinned in even being tempted. I seriously doubt Calvin would be comfortable with that conclusion (although, Calvin is comfortable with all kinds of positions that make most folks uncomfortable). So, assuming the above passage is his settled position, Calvin is not being consistent.

At any rate, what do you think. Is being tempted itself a sin?
As I understand it, God is at enmity with the flesh prior to conversion. The flesh is the beast that must be controlled by Christ who is the only one who can reign it in. The conversion process is illuminating.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Temptation is not desire. It is an outside force trying to convince your flesh to lust after a sin. Typically this is Satan's territory.
Not only does Satan tempt, but we tempt ourselves sometimes.
 
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