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GenemZ

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The text doesn't say "souls". They were male and female humans...that means they had bodies and God told them to multiply and that is through childbirth.
Correct.. It does not say souls directly.

The Hebrew of Genesis 1:27 means that God created instantly something out from nothing. Something not yet having a body. That came later.

In Genesis Two no such thing took place. For, the body was not created out from nothing.

The Hebrew indicates realities that English translations can smooth over and make obscured.

It takes time to learn these things.
 
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ewq1938

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Correct.. It does not say souls directly.

The Hebrew of Genesis 1:27 means that God created instantly something out from nothing. Something not yet having a body. That came later.


Nope. The people of day 6 were fully human with bodies. There is zero support for your position.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man here is
H120
אָדָם
'âdâm

This is the name for humankind not Adam's personal name. Bodiless souls aren't H120 adam.
 
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GenemZ

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Nope. The people of day 6 were fully human with bodies. There is zero support for your position.


You are still failing to understand the Hebrew.

God created man out from nothing in Genesis One. Bara is the Hebrew word used for "created."

In Genesis Two? It says that God rested and had stopped creating out from nothing. The body was not 'bara.' In contrast... the body was molded and formed from what had been created out from nothing. The Hebrew word is 'jatsar.' Its not what happened in Genesis 1:27. They do not speak of the same things.

If you do not want to be bothered with such details? Just tell me.

God chose Hebrew for a good reason. For, in Genesis Two the Lord did not create the lifeless body "out from nothing, as He had done with male and female in Genesis 1:27.

You are your soul. It says your body has been crucified with Christ. GOD SEES YOUR BODY AS CRUCIFIED. Yet, you keep insisting that the body is the man.


I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in
me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who
loved me and gave himself for me."
Gal 2:20​


When you have a new resurrection body it will not be like the one you now have. Yet, your soul will remain being you. You are your soul. Souls are male and female. In Genesis 1:27 God created two kinds of souls.

The body is something our soul experiences and is needed to navigate our souls in this material world.

grace and peace....
 
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ewq1938

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You are still failing to understand the Hebrew.


I am not the one misunderstanding the Hebrew used. Adam means humans and humans have bodies. Your view on this is extremely non-orthodox and should be rejected automatically.
 
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(David)DD

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Thanks for sharing with me your interesting thoughts. Please can you Please explain these verses too.

1. One creation in the six day.
Exodus 20:1 And GOD SPAKE all these words, saying,
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and ALL THAT IN THEM IS, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. One creation in the six day.
Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Lord's saying.

The beginning, Genesis 1, 2
made them male and female. from Genesis 1
Matthew 19:5 from Genesis 2
 
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GenemZ

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I am not the one misunderstanding the Hebrew used. Adam means humans and humans have bodies. Your view on this is extremely non-orthodox and should be rejected automatically.

You are orthodox? Orthodoxy mandates knowing the Hebrew. You're not orthodox. I have studied from scholars who know Hebrew. One must do so if he wants to know the truth.

 
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ewq1938

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I have studied from scholars who know Hebrew.

Can you cite any of these Hebrew scholars you have studied from that agree bodiless souls are what were created on day 6?
 
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GenemZ

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Can you cite any of these Hebrew scholars you have studied from that agree bodiless souls are what were created on day 6?

I am talking about what they agreed upon the meaning of the Hebrew.
Bârâ'' - Hebrew Thoughts- Language Studies - StudyLight.org


Can you look at the Hebrew and what it says? Can you understand the meaning of the different words I showed you?

In Genesis 1:27 it says that God created man "out from nothing." BARA!

The Hebrew word used is bara. But, in Genesis 2:3? It says God stopped doing any more BARA... So? The body was made after man had been created in Genesis 1:27. For God was no longer creating out from nothing when the body was produced!

Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he
rested from all the work of creating that he had done."
Gen 2:3
Can you see it? God rested from all BARA. No more creating something out from nothing as He had done with man in Genesis 1:27.

Genesis 1:27 was BARA! Therefore the Bible states that creating man took place prior to the providing a body.

You are a soul = man.
Angels are spirit.
Soul and spirit are not the same things!
Man is his soul. Angels are their spirit. Having a body is a biological vehicle for our soul.


Genesis 2:3? It clearly states that God was done with creating out from nothing. No more 'bara.' It says that He rested from 'bara.' Genesis 1:27 was bara!

Very important! The Hebrew states Adam's body was not created out from nothing. The Hebrew says it was 'jatsar' - it was molded and formed out from the elements of the earth.

And... That body began without a soul! It was not yet a man. A soul had to be created to be breathed into the nostrils. The creation of that soul took place first... and the provision of the bodies were not simultaneously produced.

You need to figure it out for yourself. Once shown its not difficult if you can get some old biases out of the way. Its simple enough to see on your own.

When a designer is planning what to build, he will also state what it will do after it is created. When God created man to go forth and multiply it does not mean that man began multiplying instantly. You seem to think it does. Look at the genealogies found in Genesis 5. Men were having their first child at very old ages...
 
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(David)DD

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I am talking about what they agreed upon the meaning of the Hebrew.
Bârâ'' - Hebrew Thoughts- Language Studies - StudyLight.org


Can you look at the Hebrew and what it says? Can you understand the meaning of the different words I showed you?

In Genesis 1:27 it says that God created man "out from nothing." BARA!

The Hebrew word used is bara. But, in Genesis 2:3? It says God stopped doing any more BARA... So? The body was made after man had been created in Genesis 1:27. For God was no longer creating out from nothing when the body was produced!

Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he
rested from all the work of creating that he had done."
Gen 2:3
Can you see it? God rested from all BARA. No more creating something out from nothing as He had done with man in Genesis 1:27.

Genesis 1:27 was BARA! Therefore the Bible states that creating man took place prior to the providing a body.

You are a soul = man.
Angels are spirit.
Soul and spirit are not the same things!
Man is his soul. Angels are their spirit. Having a body is a biological vehicle for our soul.


Genesis 2:3? It clearly states that God was done with creating out from nothing. No more 'bara.' It says that He rested from 'bara.' Genesis 1:27 was bara!

Very important! The Hebrew states Adam's body was not created out from nothing. The Hebrew says it was 'jatsar' - it was molded and formed out from the elements of the earth.

And... That body began without a soul! It was not yet a man. A soul had to be created to be breathed into the nostrils. The creation of that soul took place first... and the provision of the bodies were not simultaneously produced.

You need to figure it out for yourself. Once shown its not difficult if you can get some old biases out of the way. Its simple enough to see on your own.

When a designer is planning what to build, he will also state what it will do after it is created. When God created man to go forth and multiply it does not mean that man began multiplying instantly. You seem to think it does. Look at the genealogies found in Genesis 5. Men were having their first child at very old ages...

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God CREATED the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:21 And God CREATED great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, WHICH THE WATERS BROUGHT forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:27 So God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 
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Tom 1

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In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:11-13 NIV

Still in the first creation story, God creates fish, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Genesis 1: 20-23 NIV

Then God creates land animals and an undetermined number of people on the sixth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Genesis 1: 24-28 NIV

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

We are specifically told that there is "no shrub" and "no plant" when Adam, the first man, is created.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:5-7 NIV

The second creation story gives the impression that plants are made to make Adam comfortable. The tenses here are confusing and I'll say more about that later.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:8-9 NIV

In the first creation story, birds (and fish) are created before land animals while in the second creation story, land animals and birds are created at the same time. In the first story, plants and animals are created before people while in the second, Adam is created before plants and animals. Again, the creation of animals is related to Adam's comfort, since the text distinguishes between "livestock" and "wild animals." The creation of land animals and birds is closely connected with their presentation to Adam.

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
Genesis 2:19-20 NIV

God announces the intention to create Eve, to create the first woman, in verse 18. He does not actually do so until verses 21-23, after the creation and presentation of birds, livestock and wild animals.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
...
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 2:18-25 NIV


In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

Some scholars, like John Walton, approach the text in its own ancient world context, assigning the importance the preoccupations of the day indicate would have mattered to people at the time, in comparison with contemporary writings. A lot of that has to do with order - what is the order of creation, who is in charge, what preordained role do humans have etc. Not the kind of thing we give much thought to, but a major element of how city states, civilisations, empires and so on were organised at the time.

Realism in literature of any kind is a pretty new idea, it's only been the norm for less than 200 years. It doesn't make much sense to cram a story written several thousand years ago into that modern conception of writing.
 
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GenemZ

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God CREATED the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:21 And God CREATED great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, WHICH THE WATERS BROUGHT forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:27 o God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


All creatures have souls. Animal souls are generic and do not have everlasting existence. That is why God can tell man to eat animals.

Man's soul is different from all the animals in that our soul was created in His image. Evolutionists are dead wrong when some try to claim that man is a higher form of animal. Its our soul that makes us unique. Its the soul that is in God's image.

Notice... In genesis Two, God not only formed Adam's body out from the elements of the earth. Animals bodies were also produced in the same way!


Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the
wild animals and all the birds in the sky.
He brought them
to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever
the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the
man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all
the wild animals." Gen 2:19-20
Genesis 1, God lays down the groundwork and declares to all the angels what He has created (known in His mind) and what will be its function. Just like Jesus was slain from the founding of this creation, to be only manifested later in time.

We see in Genesis Two the vegetation beginning to sprout and bud. In Genesis One, God tells all the angels what was up his sleeve for the next creation, and what they are to witness to. Chapter Two is the actual manifestation of what was spoken of from God's mind in Genesis One in regards to vegetation and animals.

The more we can understand this? The more we can learn to understand the nature of God. When He says something is done. Even though its not yet seen? Its done!

grace and peace!
 
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GenemZ

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God CREATED the heaven and the earth.

Note! That was done prior to the first day of this creation. For day one does not appear until later. This creation replaced a prehistoric world. The heavens and earth were created and existing before the six days of this creation.... .
 
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Philip_B

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All creatures have souls.

evidence?

Note! That was done prior to the first day of this creation. For day one does not appear until later. This creation replaced a prehistoric world. The heavens and earth were created and existing before the six days of this creation.... .

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

Hebrew tense is decidedly more complex than you suggest.

The issue of course is was there a time when God wasn't a creator?, and is there a time when God has retired from being a creator?. My answer to both those questions would be no. This of course is more difficult for us to work with as our understanding of time is different to the ancients. They had a concrete understanding that time had a beginning and an ending, where as more contemporary thought talks about now, and time reaches back infinitely so there is no beginning and reaches forward infinitely so there is no end of time. For us, salvation history happens within time, however from a divine perspective time happens with salvation history.
 
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GenemZ

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evidence?

Because something was created unseen in Genesis One. That bodies were provided for in Genesis Two.

Google search it. The Hebrew word "nephesh" (soul) is written in reference to man and animals in the Bible.
 
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GenemZ

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evidence?



In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

Hebrew tense is decidedly more complex than you suggest.

The issue of course is was there a time when God wasn't a creator?, and is there a time when God has retired from being a creator?. My answer to both those questions would be no. This of course is more difficult for us to work with as our understanding of time is different to the ancients. They had a concrete understanding that time had a beginning and an ending, where as more contemporary thought talks about now, and time reaches back infinitely so there is no beginning and reaches forward infinitely so there is no end of time. For us, salvation history happens within time, however from a divine perspective time happens with salvation history.

Since you know so much? Tell us a more accurate rendering of "formless void." And, while you are at it? Explain why Jeremiah quoted Genesis 1:2 as a threat to the rebellious Jews who were about to be destroyed in judgment of destruction, as seen in Jeremiah 4:21-25?

How long must I see the standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?

“For my people are foolish;
they know me not;
they are stupid children;
they have no understanding.
They are ‘wise’—in doing evil!
But how to do good they know not.”

I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void;
and to the heavens, and they had no light.

I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
and all the hills moved to and fro.
I looked, and behold, there was no man,
and all the birds of the air had fled.


Add to that? Since the Jews knew the meaning of the Hebrew? Jeremiah had to let them know, in their case (unlike Genesis 1:2) they would not be utterly destroyed as was shown in Genesis 1:2!


Jeremiah 4:26-27

I looked, and the fertile field was a wilderness.
All its cities were torn down
because of the Lord
and His burning anger.


For this is what the Lord says:

For thus says the Lord: The whole land will be a desolation, yet I will not make a full and complete end of it."


Genesis 1:2 is not speaking about God's pottery class 101. It speaks of the earth being found in a state of utter ruin and destruction. The Lord (through Jeremiah) was trying to scare sense into the sinful rebellious Jews.

I looked, and the fertile field was a wilderness.
All its cities were torn down
because of the Lord
and His burning anger.


For this is what the Lord says:

For thus says the Lord: The whole land will be a desolation, yet I will not make a full and complete end of it."



Genesis 1:2 speaks of an utterly ruined earth...

Otherwise, Jeremiah would have been foolish to use it as a serious threat.

In Christ....
 
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Philip_B

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Since you know so much?
I make no claims as to knowing much. And indeed when it come's to the beginning of creation, I think the point is we know so little.

The formless void is a really interesting idea, for in a sense it pokes a question at those who see creation as ex-nihilo. Is God the creative genius who works with what is available, or is he making something out of nothing. The accounts in Genesis are in a genre I would refer to as stories of origin, and they do not need to be tidy, or answer all the questions. They are really there to tell us who did it, far more importantly than how he did it.
 
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GenemZ

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I make no claims as to knowing much. And indeed when it come's to the beginning of creation, I thin the point is we know so little.

The formless void is a really interesting idea, for in a sense it pokes a question at those who see creation as ex-nihilo. Is God the creative genius who works with what is available, or is he making something out of nothing.


Matter would have to be eternal.. always existing... for God to have only work with what was available. Only God is eternal.
 
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Philip_B

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Matter would have to be eternal.. always existing... for God to have only work with what was available. Only God is eternal.
Firstly You have infused the word only in order to make your point. My point was that these are stories that may have holes all over the place, for that is part of the genre.

The purpose of stories of origin in any culture is to give us a sense of meaning purpose culture and tradition and give an account of why thing are the way we understand them to be. The accounts in Genesis and the Big Bang Theory on that score are very much on the same level. It is just that in our age we accord the Big Bang Theory the word science, and the Genesis Accounts religion, and in reality they are different approaches to the same mystery.
 
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GenemZ

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Firstly You have infused the word only in order to make your point. My point was that these are stories that may have holes all over the place, for that is part of the genre.

The purpose of stories of origin in any culture is to give us a sense of meaning purpose culture and tradition and give an account of why thing are the way we understand them to be. The accounts in Genesis and the Big Bang Theory on that score are very much on the same level. It is just that in our age we accord the Big Bang Theory the word science, and the Genesis Accounts religion, and in reality they are different approaches to the same mystery.
In other words you think God's Word was a myth for its times?
 
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Philip_B

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In other words you think God's Word was a myth for its times?
That is not what I said, and it is not what I intended to say. Myth per se is not a problem anyway, and myth may well be a vehicle of truth. The Big Bang Theory is effectively a myth dressed up in some fancy clothes, and that does not make it wrong or right. It simply shows that we are still interested in this whole area of beginnings. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin discussed this when he spoke of the convergence of the Alpha and Omega Point.
 
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