Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Leaf473]

The ceremonial laws ended with Christ as our sacrifice. These include the Sabbath(s) festivals (not weekly seventh day Sabbath in the 4th commandment) blood sacrifices and other ceremonial laws given through Moses. Not God's moral laws that we are told are eternal.

The proper way to talk about these laws then is to say that they are ended?

So I just wanted to get this thought down while it was still fresh... lest it drain out of my brain when I'm not looking

Assuming that the best way to talk about the laws we no longer do is to say that they ended at the cross,

then I'm fine with saying that the fourth commandment didn't end at the cross, the part about keeping the seventh day holy.

What ended is the part about doing our own work the other six days.

At the cross, we were bought with a price. We don't belong to ourselves. It is wrong for me to mow my lawn on the seventh day, but it is right that I mow God's lawn any day.

And this is why it's important to me to talk about this, and I agree, let's not argue,
it's just so awesome to do God's work 24/7! And yes, that's my goal and I do stumble a lot... a lotta lot

 

[Nathan@work]

Hello Nathan, sorry but I do not understand your question did you want to explain it a little better? Do you know the difference between ceremonial and moral?

The answer to your question is in the post you are quoting from as posted earlier... The ceremonial sacrificial laws, and other similar laws written in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), were all "shadow laws" that were prophetic pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) meaning they were pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36) so now these "shadow laws" laws for remission of sins under the new covenant are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6).

Hope this is helpful

I know how I define ceremonial and moral. It may or may not be the same as you, or someone else though.

Maybe I can rephrase the question.

Is there a list, or a set definition, of what is ceremonial/sacrificial and what is not? You use the words "other similar laws", which leaves it open to interpretation.

Why do you not consider the 10 Commandments as prophetic pointing toward Christ?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So I just wanted to get this thought down while it was still fresh... lest it drain out of my brain when I'm not looking

Assuming that the best way to talk about the laws we no longer do is to say that they ended at the cross,

then I'm fine with saying that the fourth commandment didn't end at the cross, the part about keeping the seventh day holy.

What ended is the part about doing our own work the other six days.

At the cross, we were bought with a price. We don't belong to ourselves. It is wrong for me to mow my lawn on the seventh day, but it is right that I mow God's lawn any day.

And this is why it's important to me to talk about this, and I agree, let's not argue,
it's just so awesome to do God's work 24/7! And yes, that's my goal and I do stumble a lot... a lotta lot

You are tweaking God's 4th commandment, which is not a good idea. The Sabbaths festivals that ended at the cross were the yearly festivals all about food and drink, God's moral laws has nothing to do with food or drink. Nothing has changed with God's morals laws including the Sabbath commandment to keep the seventh day Holy. Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I know how I define ceremonial and moral. It may or may not be the same as you, or someone else though.

Maybe I can rephrase the question.

Is there a list, or a set definition, of what is ceremonial/sacrificial and what is not? You use the words "other similar laws", which leaves it open to interpretation.

Why do you not consider the 10 Commandments as prophetic pointing toward Christ?

No problem how do you define moral and ceremonial? Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says giving scripture examples on ceremonial laws. Moral simply means right doing (look up the Hebrew or Greek for righteousness or righteous or good). The standard of moral right doing to God and our fellow man is Gods 10 commandments. This of course includes Gods' seventh day Sabbath which is one of God's 10 commandments and our duty of love to God (moral right doing) *Exodus 20:8-11

 

[BobRyan]

Ok -- in the "just a little" category we have
Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" they met for Gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles - as given by Paul.
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching
Acts 17 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching.

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

=================

Nothing like that in the NT for "week day 1" when it comes to Gospel preaching

By contrast in the NT not one single quote of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" -- yet we all know it still matters if one does that or not.

how is this not very clear to all??

true.

BobRyan said: ↑
So then in those texts God is repeatedly saying "there is such a thing as a 7 day week" and nothing more? No other "detail" is found in those texts?? seriously?

No, in those texts you listed, they are using it to define a period of time.

I assume you mean "a 7 day period of time" and that this is all the information we can see in those texts.

For example, a month from now in April, I will be having a birthday. I will be 42 years old. I was born in a hospital on the east coast in April.

Now, I was not teaching about "April" just because I used the word was I? If I was, what did you learn about "April"?

If I had quoted a text that said "we had a birthday party and it was on the Sabbath" that would fit your recasting of the details in those texts perfectly.

For the objective unbiased readers I would say - read the quote at the top of this post and decide for yourself -- is it true that the only detail you can see is of the form "we happened to do something last month and it happened to be on a Sabbath"?

 

[fhansen]

The question really is why do some choose certain laws to be only sacrificial/ceremonial, and then others to be not? Who decides which are which?

Why are the 'non' sacrificial/ceremonial laws not continued in Christ?

The early church understood this matter, and how Jesus had changed our approach to the law with a new way, a way that wasn't concerned with the outer man and outer appearances but with the inner man and inward change. And only the moral law, as He outlined in Matt 19:17 and also as Paul did in Rom 7 and 13:10, mattered under those terms. Inward change would make the man change externally as well, the right way and for the right reasons.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Matt 23:26

Ceremonial observances don't make a man clean, but neither does mere observance of the moral law unless and until he's clean on the inside-and only God can do that; only God can justify IOW.
“I will put my law in their minds"
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

Our job first of all is only to respond to His calling, to enter relationship with Him via faith.

 

[Nathan@work]

No problem how do you define moral and ceremonial? Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says giving scripture examples on ceremonial laws. Moral simply means right doing (look up the Hebrew or Greek for righteousness or righteous or good). The standard of moral right doing to God and our fellow man is Gods 10 commandments. This of course includes Gods' seventh day Sabbath which is one of God's 10 commandments and our duty of love to God (moral right doing) *Exodus 20:8-11

I don’t define them, not in account with Gods laws anyways.

Why do you not consider the 10 Commandments as prophetic pointing toward Christ?

 

[Nathan@work]

The early church understood this matter, and how Jesus had changed our approach to the law with a new way, a way that wasn't concerned with the outer man and outer appearances but with the inner man and inward change. And only the moral law, as He outlined in Matt 19:17 and also as Paul did in Rom 7 and 13:10, mattered under those terms. Inward change would make the man change externally as well, the right way and for the right reasons.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Matt 23:26

Ceremonial observances don't make a man clean, but neither does mere observance of the moral law unless and until he's clean on the inside-and only God can do that; only God can justify IOW.
“I will put my law in their minds"
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

Our job first of all is only to respond to His calling, to enter relationship with Him via faith.

I fail to see a distinction of things as moral versus something else.

Would it not be moral to obey everything God commanded?

Would it not be immoral to disobey anything He commanded?

 

[Nathan@work]

I assume you mean "a 7 day period of time" and that this is all the information we can see in those texts.



If I had quoted a text that said "we had a birthday party and it was on the Sabbath" that would fit your recasting of the details in those texts perfectly.

For the objective unbiased readers I would say - read the quote at the top of this post and decide for yourself -- is it true that the only detail you can see is of the form "we happened to do something last month and it happened to be on a Sabbath"?

What I mean is, if I use a word to describe a particular day I am not particularly teaching doctrine about that day.

The passages you present are not teaching about the Sabbath, they are using the word to teach about something else.

Sabbath simply means ‘seventh day’. There is no teaching on it in the New Testament like there is in the Old Testament.

They mention other days in the New Testament - it does not mean they are teaching on them either.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don’t define them, not in account with Gods laws anyways.

Why do you not consider the 10 Commandments as prophetic pointing toward Christ?

You do not need to define them as the scripture does as shown earlier in regards to ceremonial and moral laws. God's 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws fulfilled in love and our duty of Love to God and man and how love is expressed to God and our fellow man therefore moral laws (right doing) *Psalms 119:172 which are all repeated in the new testament as a requirement and the standard for Christian living and how love is expressed *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; James 2:8-12 in the new covenant (more scripture support here and here linked)

 

[Nathan@work]

Because God's 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws of our duty of Love to God and man and how love is expressed to God and our fellow man therefore moral laws which are all repeated in the new testament as a requirement and the standard for Christian living and how love is expressed *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; James 2:8-12 in the new covenant (more scripture support here and here linked)

I do not understand. How does what you just said negate the 10 commandments from being prophetic about Christ?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I do not understand. How does what you just said negate the 10 commandments from being prophetic about Christ?

What is it specifically you do not understand in what was posted to you? It does not negate anything as shown in the scriptures (e.g. Matthew 5:17-19)

 

[Nathan@work]

What is it specifically you do not understand in what was posted to you? It does not negate anything Matthew 5:17-19

So you do believe the 10 commandments were prophetic of Christ.

It seemed earlier you were making a distinction between them and commandments that were just prophetic of Christ.

 

[Leaf473]

Hope you do not mind me bumping in Leaf. The answer is as Jesus says. He has not come to destroy any of Gods laws but to fulfill them. Jesus obeyed all of God's 10 commandments including the Sabbath so in this sense fulfilled them becoming God's perfect sacrificial sin offering for the sins of the world who was sinless and knew no sin (1 Peter 2:22), without spot or blemish. As to the ceremonial sacrificial laws, and other similar laws written in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), these were all "shadow laws" that were prophetic pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) meaning they were pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36) so now these "shadow laws" laws for remission of sins under the new covenant are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6) under the new covenant.

Hope this is helpful

well hello, LoveGodsWord!

Good to see you again. It's always fine with me for people to bump in. The more the merrier!

I agree that Jesus didn't come to destroy the law or the prophets.

And he fulfilled the ten commandments.

And that the shadow laws are fulfilled.

Now, when we say the shadow laws are fulfilled, I'm assuming we're saying that we don't need to take the particular physical actions talked about in those laws.

When we come to the fourth commandment, what is the physical action that we no longer take? I think it is the part about do your own work on the other six days.

I don't ever want to run the sweeper in my house. But I will run the sweeper in God's house, if he so leads.

Someone may say that God will never lead you to do something against his commandment. I think this is where the thing that Jesus talks about comes in, that the priests profane the Sabbath in following the instructions of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you do believe the 10 commandments were prophetic of Christ. It seemed earlier you were making a distinction between them and commandments that were just prophetic of Christ.

No the 10 commandments are not prophetic pointing to Christ. God's 10 commandments are God's eternal laws and according to the scriptures give us the knowledge of Good (moral right doing) and Evil (moral wrong doing); Sin (moral wrong doing) and Righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. Their purpose in the new covenant is to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and made free to be born again to walk in God's Spirit (Galatians 3:22-25; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; John 3:3-7). Those who are born again according to the scriptures do not practice sin *1 John 3:3-9. Those who continue in sin breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James stand before God guilty of breaking all of them. Sin is the difference between the children of God according to John (1 John 3:9-10) and the children of the devil.

 

[Leaf473]

And the New Testament states that the moral laws are still in effect, most notably by Jesus and Paul, perhaps. And the ancient churches in the east and west, incidentally, continued to affirm this, with the ten commandments viewed as obligatory for man-and fulfillable now to the extent that we live by the Sprit, remaining in and true to God.

Hi fhansen,
Nice to meet you!

Did those ancient churches also believe that when the church met in ecumenical council, its decisions were led by the holy Spirit? I honestly don't know. The Catholic Church believes that today, I think they say it is an ancient belief.

So when those ancient churches confirmed the ten commandments, did they also say that the fourth commandment was now to be done by worshiping and avoiding work on the first day of the week? Again, I don't know for sure but again, I think the Catholic Church teaches that today.

 

[Nathan@work]

No the 10 commandments are not prophetic pointing to Christ. God's 10 commandments are God's eternal laws and according to the scriptures give us the knowledge of Good (moral right doing) and Evil (moral wrong doing); Sin (moral wrong doing) and Righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. Their purpose in the new covenant is to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and made free to be born again to walk in God's Spirit (Galatians 3:22-25; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; John 3:3-7). Those who are born again according to the scriptures do not practice sin *1 John 3:3-9. Those who continue in sin breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James stand before God guilty of breaking all of them. Sin is the difference between the children of God according to John (1 John 3:9-10) and the children of the devil.

Wow, so this is interesting.

So you believe that the 10 commandments give us the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Leaf473]

You are tweaking God's 4th commandment, which is not a good idea. The Sabbaths festivals that ended at the cross were the yearly festivals all about food and drink, God's moral laws has nothing to do with food or drink. Nothing has changed with God's morals laws including the Sabbath commandment to keep the seventh day Holy. Hope this helps.

But I do keep the Sabbath day holy!

I understand that it appears to you that I am tweaking God's commandment.

I'm sure we agree that we are bought with a price, that we don't belong to ourselves.

Is there work that you do that you do just for yourself, and that God has no part in? It's an honest question, I don't mean to sound snarky in any way.

 

[Leaf473]

I fail to see a distinction of things as moral versus something else.

Would it not be moral to obey everything God commanded?

Would it not be immoral to disobey anything He commanded?

I've had the same thought, morality has to do with right and wrong.

It is right to do what God says, it is wrong to not do what God says.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

well hello, LoveGodsWord!

Good to see you again. It's always fine with me for people to bump in. The more the merrier!

I agree that Jesus didn't come to destroy the law or the prophets.

And he fulfilled the ten commandments.

And that the shadow laws are fulfilled.

Now, when we say the shadow laws are fulfilled, I'm assuming we're saying that we don't need to take the particular physical actions talked about in those laws.

When we come to the fourth commandment, what is the physical action that we no longer take? I think it is the part about do your own work on the other six days.

I don't ever want to run the sweeper in my house. But I will run the sweeper in God's house, if he so leads.

Someone may say that God will never lead you to do something against his commandment. I think this is where the thing that Jesus talks about comes in, that the priests profane the Sabbath in following the instructions of God.

Hello Leaf,

Jesus came to magnify God’s 10 commandment from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (applying adultery and murder to our thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil (moral wrong doing) begins in the heart. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart according to Jesus is what defiles a man in Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28.

Jesus magnified the law to the inside out (thoughts and feeling) to show us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have God’s new covenant promise to of a new heart to love and why we need to be born again by faith in God's Word for salvation to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10. This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8.

Without Jesus we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. We need to be born of God to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out and applying God’s 10 commandments to our very thoughts.

Whosoever is born of god to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not commit sin according to the scriptures in 1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospel in the new covenant. We have a Savior to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4.

1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow god's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. This results in a people that keep God’s law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-7.

………….

So what the conclusion of the matter?

ECCLESIASTES 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s LAW (10 commandments) are not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit from the inside out *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 14:12.

Hope this is helpful