Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[BobRyan]

Just so I can understand, and hopefully discuss this in an edifying way, when you say
"...but the laws didn't disappear and its still a sin to lie, cheat, covet or break any other one of God's commandments."

Do you mean none of the laws disappeared? And it is a sin to break any one of God's commandments?

But how does that fit with what you call "shadow laws", some of which I believe are called commandments in the King James?

Good question -

In 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" comes right after saying "circumcision does not matter".

In Heb 10:4-11 - all animal sacrifice and offering laws end at the cross.

In Eph 6:1-2 one of the Laws that remain includes the one where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" in that unique unit of "TEN".

And this is not just the view of Bible Sabbath keeping scholarship - it is also the view of the Bible scholarship in most Sunday keeping groups, rather than an obscure Bible detail nobody found except for those that keep the Bible Sabbath.

 

[Leaf473]

Don't be surprised if you do not get a response. I believe the thread has reached a point of contention.

Some people make a god out of words. No different than in Jesus' day when they would search the Scriptures because they thought life was in the knowing and doing of what they read. God's very first commandment is to have no other gods before Him - and yet people use His own commandments as their object of worship.

The people who make the law their god are self-imposed slaves or have never come out of slavery.

What I am trying to say is they cannot see the freedom in Christ. And just as Satan could not stand to see Adam and Eve in their freedom, so do some people use the law to try and enslave those who are free - and keep those who are not free in the captivity they are in.

The people whose god is the law are not looking for freedom, and the ones who have tasted freedom - then gone back to captivity - simply will not hear about Christs' freedom again. Unfortunately, the passage is fulfilled by them;

[Heb 6:4-6 ESV]
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Satan's goal was not to try and get Adam and Eve to break the commandment of God. His goal was to get them to eat the fruit. For in doing so, he knew, from experience, that it would forever corrupt their thinking. Satan used God's commandment to get them to sin.

[1Ti 1:8-11 ESV] Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

Well, unfortunately, sometimes our Christian brothers and sisters who believe themselves to be under the law do indeed want to spy out the freedom of those who are not.

 

[Nathan@work]

Many have responded to you over and over so that is misleading considering how many have responded.

No one worship words, that is absurd. We worship God and we are told every Word from His mouth is the Truth and is pure. Proverbs 3:5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. 6. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. This includes Exodus 20 that is now written in our hearts in the New Covenant. We are told keeping God's commandments is mans all Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

There is even a warning for those who are teaching others to break God's laws Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Jesus came to do the will of His Father and did not come to destroy God's laws and He teaches us the importance of His laws. Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. Luke 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

We are given free will, which means we have choices we can DO the will of God or do the will of the other spirit. You can not obey two masters.

True repentance requires a changed heart and turning away from sin (keeping God's laws). When Jesus healed He said go sin no more.

James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Here is where I think you may miss the whole point. Jesus is the Word of God.

Many put their trust in the Bible which is literally just words printed on paper. Jesus, came in the flesh, and it is Him who points to God. While the Bible contains the words that He spoke when He was on the earth in His flesh - now He speaks to us through His Spirit.

This is why so many people have the single Bible as their proof text, yet can disagree on so many things. Why? Because the Bible does not speak to us - it is not living - only the Spirit of God can speak to us.

When you interpret what the Commandments mean yourself, even if you think you are good intentioned, and then teach others what you think they mean, then you are teaching others to break them by doing so.

God has not called His people to teach others the law. He has called us to teach others about the Faith.

True repentance, which can only happen with true Faith, is turning away from yourself and your thoughts of what is good and evil. This is the root of sin.

The person who has the Spirit, who is led by the Spirit, will do His commandments.

Doing them, the way you think they should be done, void of the Spirit, will not give you right to the tree of life.

To use an example you may understand, you can "keep" all 10 commandments - and still not be perfect.

[Mat 19:16-22 ESV] And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

God demands perfection. Just when you think you have done all there is to be perfect, He will show you yet one more thing. He does this so we will know that our dependence is on Him and Him alone - that only He is perfect.

[Mat 19:23-26 ESV] And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It is only God who saves us, not because of our works, but because of Him working in and thru us. Don't miss that - it is not our works, it is His works. We are simply branches that bear His fruit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, unfortunately, sometimes our Christian brothers and sisters who believe themselves to be under the law do indeed want to spy out the freedom of those who are not.

Not at all, just pointing out important scripture and sharing God's Words. Which we are all free to accept or not. Yes, we do have freedom to obey God's laws and we also have the freedom not to. It's a choice we all have to make and live with.

 

[Nathan@work]

Not at all, just pointing out important scripture and sharing God's Words. Which we are all free to accept or not. Yes, we do have freedom to obey God's laws and we also have the freedom not to. It's a choice we all have to make and live with.

Actually, those void of the Spirit cannot obey God's laws. It is impossible. They are slaves to sin. They are held captive by the law in order that He can show them the way of righteousness - Faith.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is where I think you may miss the whole point. Jesus is the Word of God.

Many put their trust in the Bible which is literally just words printed on paper. Jesus, came in the flesh, and it is Him who points to God. While the Bible contains the words that He spoke when He was on the earth in His flesh - now He speaks to us through His Spirit.

This is why so many people have the single Bible as their proof text, yet can disagree on so many things. Why? Because the Bible does not speak to us - it is not living - only the Spirit of God can speak to us.

When you interpret what the Commandments mean yourself, even if you think you are good intentioned, and then teach others what you think they mean, then you are teaching others to break them by doing so.

God has not called His people to teach others the law. He has called us to teach others about the Faith.

True repentance, which can only happen with true Faith, is turning away from yourself and your thoughts of what is good and evil. This is the root of sin.

The person who has the Spirit, who is led by the Spirit, will do His commandments.

Doing them, the way you think they should be done, void of the Spirit, will not give you right to the tree of life.

To use an example you may understand, you can "keep" all 10 commandments - and still not be perfect.

[Mat 19:16-22 ESV] And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

God demands perfection. Just when you think you have done all there is to be perfect, He will show you yet one more thing. He does this so we will know that our dependence is on Him and Him alone - that only He is perfect.

[Mat 19:23-26 ESV] And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It is only God who saves us, not because of our works, but because of Him working in and thru us. Don't miss that - it is not our works, it is His works. We are simply branches that bear His fruit.

Maybe I am not the one missing the point.... The verses I quoted is from our Savior, so if you reject them you are not rejecting my words, my words mean nothing.

I think we have all have said as much as we can on the subject. You can believe as you wish and that's okay. We are known by what we DO and its our CHOICE, not something Gods gives us as that would eliminate our free will.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Leaf473]

Good question -

In 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" comes right after saying "circumcision does not matter".

In Heb 10:4-11 - all animal sacrifice and offering laws end at the cross.

In Eph 6:1-2 one of the Laws that remain includes the one where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" in that unique unit of "TEN".

And this is not just the view of Bible Sabbath keeping scholarship - it is also the view of the Bible scholarship in most Sunday keeping groups, rather than an obscure Bible detail nobody found except for those that keep the Bible Sabbath.

Hi BobRyan, good to see you again!

We were just recently talking in this thread about when Jesus is saying on The sermon on the Mount how he didn't come to destroy the law, and that no part of the law will pass from the law (or the prophets).

What's the right way to talk about the animal sacrifice and offering laws, in your view?

Do we say they are destroyed? No longer needed or required? That it's okay to break them?
That they have passed from the law?

I've read one school of thought that says once people define the terms, most disagreements go away.

So maybe it's a good time to talk about how to talk about these things, so we can be using the same sets of words?

 

[Leaf473]

Not at all, just pointing out important scripture and sharing God's Words. Which we are all free to accept or not. Yes, we do have freedom to obey God's laws and we also have the freedom not to. It's a choice we all have to make and live with.

Very true!

I think the discussion then becomes, which laws?

As I was just asking BobRyan, what's the right way to talk about the laws that we no longer keep, such as animal sacrifice?

 

[fhansen]

With the growing number of churches that are teaching God’s laws are a thing of the past citing arguments like “we are not under the law we are under grace” or “Gods laws are only for the Jews ” I thought I would create a post to examine what does the Bible teach us about the laws of God. If we remove God's laws what are we really teaching and what are we removing from our lives?

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
According to scripture we should test ourselves to ensure we are in the faith.

My pastor preached a beautiful sermon on this topic so I wanted to share here.

What happens if we remove Gods laws? Is God’s character in Gods laws? If we remove His laws are we removing God?

God is Good:
Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God

God’s law is Good:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Holy:
Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.

God’s law is Holy:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Just:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

God’s laws are Just: Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Perfect:
Mathew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God’s law is Perfect:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

God is Love
1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

God's law is Love:
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

God is Righteous
Exodus 9:27 2 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.

God’s laws are Righteous
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous.

God is Truth:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

God’s law is Truth:
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:151 You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

God is Pure:
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

God’s laws are Pure:
Psalms 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

God is Spiritual:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God’s law is Spiritual:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

God is Unchangeable:
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God’s laws are Unchangeable:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God is Eternal
Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God’s laws are Eternal
Psalms 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness

Considering God’s character is reflected in Gods laws, when we remove God’s law what else are we removing?

Yes, we are saved by grace (God’s gift) but what else does the Word of God tell us?

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God's commandments are found in Exodus 20 written in our hearts and mind in the new covenant Hebrews 10:16.

God bless

The law is good, and comes from the heart of God-we're the problem. And we cease being the problem to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. And then the law is fulfilled as obedience flows, willingly and of its own accord, from that love. And this relationship begins, necessarily, with faith.

The New Covenant does not excuse man from the obligation to be righteous, but rather finally provides him with the authentic means to achieve it, in partnership with God, which is to be "under grace" as opposed to "under the law", which means to attempt to be righteous by myself, as if that were even possible. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

 

[Nathan@work]

Maybe I am not the one missing the point.... The verses I quoted is from our Savior, so if you reject them you are not rejecting my words, my words mean nothing.

I think we have all have said as much as we can on the subject. You can believe as you wish and that's okay. We are known by what we DO and its our CHOICE, not something Gods gives us as that would eliminate our free will.

We can agree to disagree.

Actually, I can never agree to disagree. I never understood how people can say that. That is not right. It is actually a selfish statement at its core.

You quoted verses that are printed in the Bible. The same Bible that people use to mean whatever they want it to mean. What does the Spirit say?

I am known by Who's I am, not what I do. I do what I do because of Who's I am.

It is not me that works, but Him working in me to do His good pleasure. My will is to do His will. I know His will is perfect, and mine is not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The law is good, and comes from the heart of God-we're the problem. And we cease being the problem to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. And then the law is fulfilled as obedience flows, willingly and of its own accord, from that love. And this relationship begins, necessarily, with faith.

The New Covenant does not excuse man from the obligation to be righteous, but rather finally provides him with the authentic means to achieve it, in partnership with God, which is to be "under grace" as opposed to "under the law", which means to attempt to be righteous by myself, as if that were even possible. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

True, apart from God we can do nothing, and everything is possible with God, including keeping the commandments. We are saved by grace (God's gift to give or not) by our faith, but its not a license to sin and we obey God's commandments not to be saved, but because of our new heart and want to obey out of love. 1 John 5:3

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, I can never agree to disagree. I never understood how people can say that. That is not right. It is actually a selfish statement at its core.

You quoted verses that are printed in the Bible. The same Bible that people use to mean whatever they want it to mean. What does the Spirit say?

I am known by Who's I am, not what I do. I do what I do because of Who's I am.

It is not me that works, but Him working in me to do His good pleasure. My will is to do His will. I know His will is perfect, and mine is not.

I think we are arguing to argue and its no longer fruitful. Wish you well and God bless.

 

[fhansen]

True, apart from God we can do nothing, and everything is possible with God, including keeping the commandments. We are saved by grace (God's gift to give or not) by our faith, but its not a license to sin and we obey God's commandments not to be saved, but because of our new heart and want to obey out of love. 1 John 5:3

Yes, and that obedience remains an obligation for creation-for us- even as God patiently and lovingly works to accomplish it in us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Very true!

I think the discussion then becomes, which laws?

As I was just asking BobRyan, what's the right way to talk about the laws that we no longer keep, such as animal sacrifice?

The ceremonial laws ended with Christ as our sacrifice. These include the yearly Sabbath(s) festivals (not weekly seventh day Sabbath in the 4th commandment) blood sacrifices and other ceremonial laws given through Moses. Not God's moral laws that we are told are eternal.

 

[Leaf473]

The ceremonial laws ended with Christ as our sacrifice. These include the Sabbath(s) festivals (not weekly seventh day Sabbath in the 4th commandment) blood sacrifices and other ceremonial laws given through Moses. Not God's moral laws that we are told are eternal.

The proper way to talk about these laws then is to say that they are ended?

 

[Nathan@work]

I think we are arguing to argue and its no longer fruitful. Wish you well and God bless.

I am not arguing. I am trying to help.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi BobRyan, good to see you again!

We were just recently talking in this thread about when Jesus is saying on The sermon on the Mount how he didn't come to destroy the law, and that no part of the law will pass from the law (or the prophets).

What's the right way to talk about the animal sacrifice and offering laws, in your view?

Do we say they are destroyed? No longer needed or required? That it's okay to break them?
That they have passed from the law?

I've read one school of thought that says once people define the terms, most disagreements go away.

So maybe it's a good time to talk about how to talk about these things, so we can be using the same sets of words?

Hope you do not mind me bumping in Leaf. The answer is as Jesus says. He has not come to destroy any of Gods laws but to fulfill them. Jesus obeyed all of God's 10 commandments including the Sabbath so in this sense fulfilled them becoming God's perfect sacrificial sin offering for the sins of the world who was sinless and knew no sin (1 Peter 2:22), without spot or blemish. As to the ceremonial sacrificial laws, and other similar laws written in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), these were all "shadow laws" that were prophetic pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) meaning they were pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36) so now these "shadow laws" laws for remission of sins under the new covenant are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6) under the new covenant.

Hope this is helpful

 

[fhansen]

The ceremonial laws ended with Christ as our sacrifice. These include the Sabbath(s) festivals (not weekly seventh day Sabbath in the 4th commandment) blood sacrifices and other ceremonial laws given through Moses. Not God's moral laws that we are told are eternal.

And the New Testament states that the moral laws are still in effect, most notably by Jesus and Paul, perhaps. And the ancient churches in the east and west, incidentally, continued to affirm this, with the ten commandments viewed as obligatory for man-and fulfillable now to the extent that we live by the Sprit, remaining in and true to God.

 

[Nathan@work]

Hope you do not mind me bumping in Leaf. The answer is as Jesus says. He has not come to destroy any of Gods laws but to fulfill them. Jesus obeyed all of God's 10 commandments including the Sabbath so in this sense fulfilled them becoming our perfect sin offering who was sinless and knew no sin, without spot or blemish. As to the ceremonial sacrificial laws, and other similar laws written in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), these were all "shadow laws" that were prophetic pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) meaning they were pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36) so now these "shadow laws" laws for remission of sins under the new covenant are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6).

Hope this is helpful

The question really is why do some choose certain laws to be only sacrificial/ceremonial, and then others to be not? Who decides which are which?

Why are the 'non' sacrificial/ceremonial laws not continued in Christ?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The question really is why do some choose certain laws to be only sacrificial/ceremonial, and then others to be not? Who decides which are which?
Why are the 'non' sacrificial/ceremonial laws not continued in Christ?

Hello Nathan, sorry but I do not understand your question did you want to explain it a little better? Do you know the difference between ceremonial and moral?

Why are the 'non' sacrificial/ceremonial laws not continued in Christ?

The answer to your question is in the post you are quoting from as posted earlier. Perhaps you missed it... The ceremonial sacrificial laws, and other similar laws written in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7), were all "shadow laws" that were prophetic pointing to the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17) meaning they were pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36) so now these "shadow laws" laws for remission of sins under the new covenant are fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6) under the new covenant.

Hope this is helpful