Equality Act

[rjs330]

The first six were completely wrong and at that point it was obvious the link writer had no clue what they were talking about so I stopped wasting my time looking up the studies. In your honest opinion, how many citations that are nothing more than steaming bull excrement should I reasonably be expected to read before I get to one that might not be completely wrong and still consider the whole thing to be valid article as valid?

Some of the earlier studies delt with kids that were preprubertal discordance. The issue is they were confused about their gender. Kids didn't run around claiming to be transgendered. They thought they might be girls. In the end it turned out they were xonfus s about what they were and were homosexual boys instead. Now what would have happened if we listened to them and started giving them blockers and so on. Helping them become girls. It would have been a nightmare for them.

Later studies absolutely included transgender kids and they show they primarily stop being transgender as they get older.

I'm done with this conversation. You and others like you will never be convinced no matter what study is shown. You will just call them haters if they disagree with you and your nonsense about kids being transgendered. The blockers and so on are dangerous and there are more and more people coming back wishing they didn't transition. Kids are NOT mentally capable of making such a life changing decision. Their brains have not fully developed and neither have their bodies. It's patently absurd to think they have any real clue as to what they are doing it getting themselves into at that age. Especially when so many of them do not stay transgendered. How many transgender kids grow up to stay trans?

 

[SilverBear]

In the later studies it absolutely included transgender kids. Gender dysphoria absolutely includes these people. Gender dysphoria is related to transgender. So yes the studies absolutely include transgender kids.

the later studies were on gender dysphoria. Most transsexuals don't have gender dysphoria.




Steensma, T. D., McGuire, J. K., Kreukels, B. P. C., Beekman, A. J., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2013). Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: A quantitative follow-up study. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 52, 582–590. noted that a primary issue seemed to be misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria and suggest that it may be impossible to actually diagnosis this prior to adolescence

 

[Aldebaran]

the later studies were on gender dysphoria. Most transsexuals don't have gender dysphoria.

Then why would they have a sex change?

"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics."
Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes.

 

[SilverBear]

Then why would they have a sex change?

"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics."
Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes.

it's called self acceptance...try it sometime

 

[Pommer]

Then why would they have a sex change?

"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics."
Gender dysphoria - Symptoms and causes.

Because a MTF transsexual is perfectly happy being a girl/woman. It WOULD have been nice of their body matched, but is doesn’t, so they do as much (or as little) as they need to do, to be happy.

And what’s “wrong” with that?

 

[Aldebaran]

it's called self acceptance...try it sometime

Oh, I get it now. This is one of those subject where we are supposed to use newsspeak.
When someone is a boy, but thinks he's a girl, and then gets a sex-change, it's called "self-acceptance". Then what if a boy accepts that he's a boy? Is that "self denial"?

 

[Aldebaran]

Because a MTF transsexual is perfectly happy being a girl/woman. It WOULD have been nice of their body matched, but is doesn’t, so they do as much (or as little) as they need to do, to be happy.

And what’s “wrong” with that?

Perfectly happy? Is that your scientific conclusion? Probably not. Well, let's take a look at "the science", which is all the rage these days:

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

 

[SilverBear]

Oh, I get it now. This is one of those subject where we are supposed to use newsspeak.
When someone is a boy, but thinks he's a girl, and then gets a sex-change, it's called "self-acceptance". Then what if a boy accepts that he's a boy? Is that "self denial"?

if a transsexual has self acceptance then it is highly unlikely that they will have gender dysphoria. Try paying attention

 

[Pommer]

Perfectly happy? Is that your scientific conclusion? Probably not. Well, let's take a look at "the science", which is all the rage these days:

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Imagine not seeing “you” in the mirror.
That can be torture for these people. Therapy is needed for those unable to cope with this reality, but it is real even if you’ve never experienced it for yourself.

Where’s compassion?
“You’re a GIRL? Well you got BOY PARTS! Buck up and get over it!”

 

[SilverBear]

Perfectly happy? Is that your scientific conclusion? Probably not. Well, let's take a look at "the science", which is all the rage these days:

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

the author of the study, Cecilia Dhejne was asked in an 2012 interview about how her work was being misrepresented: "It’s very frustrating! I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences. The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans healthcare and impact systems of anti-trans oppression. Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria.
It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

 

[Aldebaran]

Imagine not seeing “you” in the mirror.
That can be torture for these people. Therapy is needed for those unable to cope with this reality, but it is real even if you’ve never experienced it for yourself.

Where’s compassion?
“You’re a GIRL? Well you got BOY PARTS! Buck up and get over it!”

In your overriding goal of focusing on me, you completely glossed over what the scientists found. Go back and read, unless this is one of those times it's more convenient to ignore the science.

 

[Aldebaran]

if a transsexual has self acceptance then it is highly unlikely that they will have gender dysphoria. Try paying attention

If the person had self acceptance, then it is highly unlikely they would feel a need to fundamentally change themselves.

 

[Aldebaran]

the author of the study, Cecilia Dhejne was asked in an 2012 interview about how her work was being misrepresented: "It’s very frustrating! I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences. The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans healthcare and impact systems of anti-trans oppression. Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria.
It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

Good for her. Now back to her study:
Conclusion
This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalizations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

 

[tall73]

Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: Aspects of its outcome. American Journal of Psychiatry, 128, 1283–1289.
none of the 16 subjects were identified as transsexuals as children or even a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. If you want to claim that trans children turn out one way or the other then you need to start with trans children

I thought the focus was on adolescents with later onset? The WPATH already cited multiple studies showing high levels of desisters among children.

Gender dysphoria was not a diagnosis at the time. And terms have changed considerably over the years. Are you looking at retrospective reviews of case files to see if they would make the threshold of gender dysphoria now? I know for some studies that was discussed. Some of the diagnoses under previous DSM categories still did include the distress element, so that is helpful.

Part of the diagnosis in children is related to non-gender conforming behavior:

What Is Gender Dysphoria?

The DSM-5 defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

 

[tall73]

Because a MTF transsexual is perfectly happy being a girl/woman. It WOULD have been nice of their body matched, but is doesn’t, so they do as much (or as little) as they need to do, to be happy.

And what’s “wrong” with that?

Just to elaborate, the 2015 transgender survey found a fairly significant percentage of mtf transgenders who did not wish to have bottom surgery, or any surgery. A number had no cross hormonal treatment, etc.

And yes, while some may experience distress at times, gender dysphoria is a diagnosis at a particular point and is not necessarily ongoing.

Of course, the 2015 survey was for adults. And while some health experts are willing to undergo chemical or surgical interventions for those who need treatment of dysphoria, because there is a perception that it mitigates suicide risk, etc. there are fewer who would do elective surgery without dysphoria on a minor because there is no offsetting of risk, and it would be better to have consent.

Moreover, that is part of the debate regarding desisting as well. If some are able to manage dysphoria without permanent interventions then it may be wise to delay permanent interventions, in case a person with dysphoria desists or decides that they are accepting of their body even if they continue to identify differently than natal sex.

 

[tall73]

Imagine not seeing “you” in the mirror.
That can be torture for these people. Therapy is needed for those unable to cope with this reality, but it is real even if you’ve never experienced it for yourself.

Where’s compassion?
“You’re a GIRL? Well you got BOY PARTS! Buck up and get over it!”

He was showing statistics of mortality after transition. There is still an elevated suicide risk.

The question that is debated among those practicing in the field is whether earlier intervention with hormone blockers, etc. helps with that, as the study he posted was looking back at data mostly before that was the case.

Part of the debate also centers around whether elevated suicide risk is due to dyphoria, or distress due to discrimination or reactions of others.

The transgender survey suggests a lot of it is from reactions from others, so that may not be alleviated by addressing the dysphoria.

Other distress certainly does come from the dysphoria, and really, contemplating medical risks of blockers, cross sex hormones, surgery, if all those are pursued, is daunting. Meanwhile, if you take blockers you are going to be out of step with folks your age which can add more difficulty (though the hope is less than the dysphoria increase of the onset of secondary sex characterstics for your natal gender). If you do undergo bottom surgery there are ongoing care routines which can be demanding, and which neglecting can cause further issues. If you are on cross sex hormones you have to maintain that. If you undergo hormones and bottom surgery you are likely sterile, and that may also limit partner selection because some want to have children. And at the end of it the reality is that as much as current technology can do the result is still not a total transformation.

Yes, it would be difficult.

 

[SilverBear]

If the person had self acceptance, then it is highly unlikely they would feel a need to fundamentally change themselves.

sounds like you didn't read the definition of gender dysphoria you posted

 

[SilverBear]

Good for her. Now back to her study:
Conclusion
This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalizations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

again the author of the study Cecilia Dhejne: "trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress."


but lets take a look at just one of your highlights: suicide.
in the course of the 11 year study two members of the matched control group commuted suicide. The study group did have more suicides in that 11 year period...one more


and back to the author Cevilia Dhejne repeated what was posted earlier but you apparently didn't read: " the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

 

[SilverBear]

I thought the focus was on adolescents with later onset? The WPATH already cited multiple studies showing high levels of desisters among children.

Gender dysphoria was not a diagnosis at the time. And terms have changed considerably over the years. Are you looking at retrospective reviews of case files to see if they would make the threshold of gender dysphoria now? I know for some studies that was discussed. Some of the diagnoses under previous DSM categories still did include the distress element, so that is helpful.

Part of the diagnosis in children is related to non-gender conforming behavior:

What Is Gender Dysphoria?

The DSM-5 defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

and how many of the 16 boys in the 1972 lebovitz paper would meet this criteria?

of course you can't say because none of these things are actually addresses on a case by case basis or even in general. You can't even say any of these boys were transsexual. If you are making claims about transsexual adolescents then you need to actually look at transsexual adolescents

 

[Aldebaran]

again the author of the study Cecilia Dhejne: "trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress."


but lets take a look at just one of your highlights: suicide.
in the course of the 11 year study two members of the matched control group commuted suicide. The study group did have more suicides in that 11 year period...one more


and back to the author Cevilia Dhejne repeated what was posted earlier but you apparently didn't read: " the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

Saying that, "Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment" is not science. It's just an assumption, even if it was said by a scientist.