• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Anselm's Second Ontological Argument

Status
Not open for further replies.

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
No, not if you think anything is possible.

Something that is merely possible, according to Cambridge, "might or might not happen."

Do what you like.

I'm actually quite shocked you decided to reserve the right to invoke reification fallacies as-if they were rational. I'm appealing to reason here. Are you saying you believe "science" is an entity of some sort? And if so, how can you possibly demonstrate that?

Neither is a good definition.

And yet question-begging, or playing coy, is never a good definition. This statement is avoiding a complete answer in any case. One cannot give a complete answer simply by saying what something is not. It looks dodgy.

This is a long discussion. But out cognitive abilities can be directed at finding truth. This has been demonstrated over and over again.

How? Not scientifically. Because science is inductive, and thus never arrives at truth.

Nope. Good evidence is evidence that convinces me using my standards of evidence.

But you're not even going to specify those standards. Furthermore, if those standards are based on "good evidence," then it becomes a circular argument. I don't think you'd do such a thing, and really think you're more reasonable than that. So please, specify your standards for what constitutes, "good evidence."

The same is for you and any other person on the planet. Everyone gets to determine if some evidence convinces them or not for themselves. No one else gets to. What I consider good evidence may not be what you think is good evidence. This is a larger discussion so please don't take what I say and read into it.

Who taught you that arbitrary rule? <-- Rhetorical question, it's no rule at all. That explanation there in your quote is a form of hyper-relativism.

Evidence is objective.
Persuasion is subjective.

^ Your assessment of evidence is always in the "persuasion" category.

Take flat-earthers, for example. To them, no amount of evidence for a round Earth is considered "good evidence." People can take their standard of "good evidence" to unreasonable and/or downright deceptive levels, whether to themselves or when dealing with others.

You are just redefining supernatural.

Sorry, but bare assertions don't really count. You have to explain why. And I checked, it's very-very supernatural in the literal sense.

I never claimed such a thing.

No problem. It's okay, just a precaution. That's usually the "go-to" for the atheist whenever I go there.

Ok, that is not me.

But you're still stalling on that definition of what you think science is. We've already established that we have completely different perspectives on the matter. I think it's what scientists "do," to achieve new innovations in our knowledge of nature. You think it's a "something(?)" or an "entity(?)" or a singular methodological being that "does things," and can exercise self-correction. It's very hard to tell.

Again and again I never said such a thing. You seem to keep placing beliefs on me that I never said I held. makes arguing easier huh.

I'm just filling in gaps here. If I'm wrong, then please answer my questions. You're encouraged to specify your case. And if it's simply, "I don't know, I need time to look into it to decide for myself," then that's okay too. No one's gonna judge you for that.

I said best method, not only method.

On the one hand, you "never said" that science was a method, and now it's not the only method. Can you please clarify? Please? Don't you even want to communicate? If not, just let me know, and I'll quit. Okay?

I Have admitted that 100% certainty about truth is not attainable at least that is what I believe. But that does not mean we can't be really close to it.

How do you even know where truth is located if you don't believe with 100% certainty that it's attainable?

The only reason we cannot be 100% certain is because no one has solved solipsism.

So you believe solipsism is a real possibility that can have an effect on this?

However, truth can be demonstrated to a high degree. Just look at a plane. We understand the truth of the physics behind a plane. We know this because we demonstrate it everyday thousands of times. You can deny it but we see it everyday.

But inductively speaking, it's never certain you're even looking at a plane.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Something that is merely possible, according to Cambridge, "might or might not happen."
Sure, however somethings cannot ever happen. Have a probability of zero. So are not possible.

I'm actually quite shocked you decided to reserve the right to invoke reification fallacies as-if they were rational. I'm appealing to reason here. Are you saying you believe "science" is an entity of some sort? And if so, how can you possibly demonstrate that?
I am not saying science is an entity. Here is my unofficial definition of science to start with:

Science is the active pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural world using a systematic process and is evidence based. Science includes observation, measurement of data, analysis of data nd evidence, repetition of verification and testing. Peer review is a necessary part of science. Science uses this process to find out truth which is what corresponds to reality.

And yet question-begging, or playing coy, is never a good definition. This statement is avoiding a complete answer in any case. One cannot give a complete answer simply by saying what something is not. It looks dodgy.
I did define what good evidence is. Here it is again:

Nope. Good evidence is evidence that convinces me using my standards of evidence. The same is for you and any other person on the planet. Everyone gets to determine if some evidence convinces them or not for themselves. No one else gets to. What I consider good evidence may not be what you think is good evidence. This is a larger discussion so please don't take what I say and read into it. Just ask if you have more questions.


How? Not scientifically. Because science is inductive, and thus never arrives at truth.
You are confusing what is 100% certain to be true with what we have good reason to believe is true. Science deals with what we have good reason to believe is true.

But you're not even going to specify those standards. Furthermore, if those standards are based on "good evidence," then it becomes a circular argument. I don't think you'd do such a thing, and really think you're more reasonable than that. So please, specify your standards for what constitutes, "good evidence."
You never asked for my standards. This is not an easy question. My standards are whatever convinces me something is true and this will be in proportion to the claim. If a claim is mundane like if you told me you ate eggs for breakfast I would believe it to be true based on that. A lot of people eat eggs for breakfast and if you didn't, it has little to no consequence to me or others. If you said that you can walk through solid walls I would not take your word for it. I would need more evidence probably I would need to see it in person. So when a claim is made I need to evaluate the evidence and see if it convinces me. Some people may take your word for it that you can walk through solid walls or believe a video of it. Different people will believe something to be true or false by the same evidence based on their standards of evidence. What it takes to convince them and those standards will change based on the claim.

Who taught you that arbitrary rule? <-- Rhetorical question, it's no rule at all. That explanation there in your quote is a form of hyper-relativism.

Evidence is objective.
Persuasion is subjective.

^ Your assessment of evidence is always in the "persuasion" category.
Evidence is objective, how we analyze or interpret the evidence is subjective. Scientists use methods to try to take as mush subjectivity out of it.

Take flat-earthers, for example. To them, no amount of evidence for a round Earth is considered "good evidence." People can take their standard of "good evidence" to unreasonable and/or downright deceptive levels, whether to themselves or when dealing with others.
I agree. So what?

Sorry, but bare assertions don't really count. You have to explain why. And I checked, it's very-very supernatural in the literal sense.
At least you checked. I will need a definition of what you think supernatural is.

But you're still stalling on that definition of what you think science is. We've already established that we have completely different perspectives on the matter. I think it's what scientists "do," to achieve new innovations in our knowledge of nature. You think it's a "something(?)" or an "entity(?)" or a singular methodological being that "does things," and can exercise self-correction. It's very hard to tell.
See above.

I'm just filling in gaps here. If I'm wrong, then please answer my questions. You're encouraged to specify your case. And if it's simply, "I don't know, I need time to look into it to decide for myself," then that's okay too. No one's gonna judge you for that.
I have answered all questions you have asked. When you "fill in the gaps" you are just making things up. If you are not sure what I mean please ask.

On the one hand, you "never said" that science was a method, and now it's not the only method. Can you please clarify? Please? Don't you even want to communicate? If not, just let me know, and I'll quit. Okay?
See above.

How do you even know where truth is located if you don't believe with 100% certainty that it's attainable?
What do you mean by "where truth is located"? I can pursue earning $100 million. Is it not pursuit if I only make $10 million? 100% certainty is the goal, even if we never attain it.

So you believe solipsism is a real possibility that can have an effect on this?
My stance on solipsism is I don't know. I have a low confidence that it is true but I have not read any argument that can rule it out.

But inductively speaking, it's never certain you're even looking at a plane.
No but I am 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% confident I am looking at a plane.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Sure, however somethings cannot ever happen. Have a probability of zero. So are not possible.

Making them literally "impossible." And I agree! But watch closely:

- Impossibilities aren't really "anything" at all. I clearly stated, "anything is possible," which pretty much means anything that could possibly exist is possible ("A = A" or "-A" = "-A").

- There is a clear distinction between a possibility vs. an impossibility. An impossibility is far more determinate, verified, and certain. While "possibility" alone is much more ambiguous, as-in, "it might or might not happen." That nasty "or" always messes things up for us, don't it? ;)

^ Possibilities by nature always remain held within that indeterminate "stasis" of ambiguity. As impatient human beings, we generally want to further categorize any mere possibility as more likely determinate, one way or the other, but we really can't. Not if we don't have anything more substantive to go on, to make a mere possibility into something more than just mere possibility.

Science is the active pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural world using a systematic process and is evidence based. Science includes observation, measurement of data, analysis of data nd evidence, repetition of verification and testing. Peer review is a necessary part of science. Science uses this process to find out truth which is what corresponds to reality.

Okay. That's fine, but it's full of implicit assumptions that I don't believe you've taken the time to really get into:

1. This is a claim without evidence. Is there scientific evidence for science? No, because that would be circular reasoning. What is the "best method" of determining the claim of science itself? Doesn't that mean science exists without evidence, or is a belief based on blind faith?

2. What "systematic process" is being referred to? Is any systematic process acceptable as long as it produces verifiable results, or is there a singular (universal) prescriptive method being asserted here? If the latter, then that's simply another claim without evidence.

3. When you refer to "observation," don't you really mean "empirical observation?"

4. When you refer to measurement of data, you mean using math, right? Isn't math necessary for measurement?

5. When you refer to "evidence," don't you really mean "empirical evidence?"

6. How much repetition of verification and testing is enough?

7. Re: "Verification." Have you ever heard of "verificationism" in philosophy of science? If you have, then can you tell me generally what year verificationism failed, and why? If you don't care about this question at all, or don't even care to look it up, then why is verification still necessary?

8. Why is peer review "gatekeeping" still necessary in the age of information? What if peer review isn't as reliable in the real world as we were led to believe in class?

9. What is the justification for your assumption of the existence of "truth?"

10. What is your ontological "reality" here, and how can you possibly justify the assumption of it?

^ These are not meant to "get you." They are just very real questions that I don't believe you've ever taken time to seriously consider, and you are not required to answer any of these. I'd strongly suggest doing yourself a favor, walking away, and not debating any further. Metaphorically speaking, Br'er Rabbit has already punched way too deep into the proverbial tar baby by now.

You are confusing what is 100% certain to be true with what we have good reason to believe is true.

You have no objective standard of truth to work in either case, whether deductively (100%) or inductively.

Science deals with what we have good reason to believe is true.

What do you mean by "good?" Utility? Personal preference?

You never asked for my standards. This is not an easy question. My standards are whatever convinces me something is true and this will be in proportion to the claim.

So you admit that you can change your personal standard on what is both convincing as well as proportion. At whim. You know, like flat-earthers do.

If a claim is mundane like if you told me you ate eggs for breakfast I would believe it to be true based on that.

Not if it's related to say, a murder trial, or a lawsuit involving the poultry industry. Context is everything here. Suddenly, nothing is "mundane" and every little detail matters: "What grocery store? Which farm? Powdered eggs or fresh? Cage free, or regular? What grade?"

If you said that you can walk through solid walls I would not take your word for it. I would need more evidence probably I would need to see it in person. So when a claim is made I need to evaluate the evidence and see if it convinces me.

But by your own statements here, you're stating that you've already "convinced" yourself before any honest or impartial evaluation of the evidence.

What it takes to convince them and those standards will change based on the claim.

Which means that after all is said and done, it's more about ones subjective will (choosing to be convinced) rather than the objective evidence itself. One's subjective will is generally the gatekeeper for evidence; regardless of how real it is or not.

I agree. So what?

It means that pretty much anyone is capable of doing that, and it's not limited to flat earthers alone.

At least you checked. I will need a definition of what you think supernatural is.

It's very basic: "That which is superior to, surpasses, supercedes, transcends, or goes outside of nature." Many dictionaries flip it against science, but taking it back to the direct compound words is more thorough. Many who profess to be "pro-science" assume that nature is all there is. But that's simply begging the question, which is never rational.

No but I am 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% confident I am looking at a plane.

That's because you're just taking your own sense perception for granted. How do you know you're not merely dreaming of looking at a plane? How do you know for certain it's not a very elaborate scale model? <-- I assure you, they're surprisingly detailed nowadays. How do you know you're not having a sudden hallucination? Etc. Throw the Problem of Induction on top of all this and you really don't know what you're looking at. Are you even sure you exist? Are we having fun yet? o_O
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
So I am going to respond to you entire post. But I am going on vacation tomorrow so I will get to it next week. But I would like you to think about this until then. You asked me what my definition of science was. I gave you this answer:

I am not saying science is an entity. Here is my unofficial definition of science to start with:

Science is the active pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural world using a systematic process and is evidence based. Science includes observation, measurement of data, analysis of data nd evidence, repetition of verification and testing. Peer review is a necessary part of science. Science uses this process to find out truth which is what corresponds to reality.

In your reply to this answer you did not quote the part where I said that this was a starting point. So instead of you asking questions from there you went on to give me this:



Okay. That's fine, but it's full of implicit assumptions that I don't believe you've taken the time to really get into:

1. This is a claim without evidence. Is there scientific evidence for science? No, because that would be circular reasoning. What is the "best method" of determining the claim of science itself? Doesn't that mean science exists without evidence, or is a belief based on blind faith?

2. What "systematic process" is being referred to? Is any systematic process acceptable as long as it produces verifiable results, or is there a singular (universal) prescriptive method being asserted here? If the latter, then that's simply another claim without evidence.

3. When you refer to "observation," don't you really mean "empirical observation?"

4. When you refer to measurement of data, you mean using math, right? Isn't math necessary for measurement?

5. When you refer to "evidence," don't you really mean "empirical evidence?"

6. How much repetition of verification and testing is enough?

7. Re: "Verification." Have you ever heard of "verificationism" in philosophy of science? If you have, then can you tell me generally what year verificationism failed, and why? If you don't care about this question at all, or don't even care to look it up, then why is verification still necessary?

8. Why is peer review "gatekeeping" still necessary in the age of information? What if peer review isn't as reliable in the real world as we were led to believe in class?

9. What is the justification for your assumption of the existence of "truth?"

10. What is your ontological "reality" here, and how can you possibly justify the assumption of it?

^ These are not meant to "get you." They are just very real questions that I don't believe you've ever taken time to seriously consider, and you are not required to answer any of these. I'd strongly suggest doing yourself a favor, walking away, and not debating any further. Metaphorically speaking, Br'er Rabbit has already punched way too deep into the proverbial tar baby by now.
So instead of asking me questions to clarify you give a list of things you claim I have never thought of. You also told me twice that I should not even respond to you with the implication that you have so refuted me I would be embarrassing myself to even respond and then claimed victory. I want you to think about how dishonest these are of debate tactics. So I will get to this post next week, hope you have a good week and maybe just maybe think about how you debate here.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: plugh
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
So I am going to respond to you entire post. But I am going on vacation tomorrow so I will get to it next week. But I would like you to think about this until then. You asked me what my definition of science was. I gave you this answer:

I care far less about your (subjective) definition of science than I do the (objective) definition of science.

In your reply to this answer you did not quote the part where I said that this was a starting point.

Then in all honesty, it's a trainwreck of a definition. Nothing personal here, I'm sorry, but it's a real mess.

So instead of asking me questions to clarify you give a list of things you claim I have never thought of.

I know you didn't based on your earlier statements. I know that you know you didn't because of your last response. Let's get real here, please.

You also told me twice that I should not even respond to you with the implication that you have so refuted me I would be embarrassing myself to even respond and then claimed victory.

It is implied, and I was trying to be as polite as possible about it. I never claimed "victory" of any sort. My opponent simply took too many things entirely for granted. That's how I started out. I was the same way once.

I want you to think about how dishonest these are of debate tactics.

Sorry, but like I already asked, you're going to need objective evidence of a standard of truth in-order to even make the credible accusation of "dishonesty" to begin with. I didn't write the rules. So don't hate the player.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I care far less about your (subjective) definition of science than I do the (objective) definition of science.



Then in all honesty, it's a trainwreck of a definition. Nothing personal here, I'm sorry, but it's a real mess.



I know you didn't based on your earlier statements. I know that you know you didn't because of your last response. Let's get real here, please.



It is implied, and I was trying to be as polite as possible about it. I never claimed "victory" of any sort. My opponent simply took too many things entirely for granted. That's how I started out. I was the same way once.



Sorry, but like I already asked, you're going to need objective evidence of a standard of truth in-order to even make the credible accusation of "dishonesty" to begin with. I didn't write the rules. So don't hate the player.
I see your just going to continue on your current path of mind reading and bluster. Ok no problem. Talk to you next week.

BTW, words do not have objective meaning.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: plugh
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
I see your just going to continue on your current path of mind reading and bluster. Ok no problem. Talk to you next week.

It's not mind-reading when you have already experienced the same pattern of response with other people. That's why I posted those questions. If you could answer them directly and without pressure, then you would have shown me you knew the subject. That's why I didn't twist your arm about it.

BTW, words do not have objective meaning.

^ Except your words, of course. Doubles-standard much?
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,640
✟499,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I care far less about your (subjective) definition of science than I do the (objective) definition of science.
There is no objective definition of any word. We humans literally just made them all up. And we change usage of words all the time. We intersubjectively agree to common usage so that we understand each other. But there is not in fact meaning in the characters that make up a word.
 
Upvote 0

PuerAzaelis

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2016
481
234
NYC
✟216,249.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
That's awful, and yet terrific.
Not to mention that it puts an awesome responsibility on the speaker I suppose to create as much inter-subjective meaning as they can in as least harmful a way as possible.
 
Upvote 0

PuerAzaelis

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2016
481
234
NYC
✟216,249.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
There is no objective definition of any word. We humans literally just made them all up. And we change usage of words all the time. We intersubjectively agree to common usage so that we understand each other. But there is not in fact meaning in the characters that make up a word.

Nominalism started in an opposition to the more classic and much older position that we already introduced as realism. In this context, however, our moderate realism gains a deeper and more important meaning. According to moderate realism an abstract idea of a car or a horse exists actually in every individual car or horse. The universal horse does exist—not, as Plato thought, in some other realm (extreme realism), but in every individual horse. When you see an animal and recognize a horse it is because there is the universal horseness in this particular animal. The correct understanding of this Aristotelian-Thomistic claim is absolutely crucial for understanding the rest of classical metaphysics as well as the problems of theistic evolution.

Let’s go over it again. When you look at a horse you do not see a horse, because your senses do not really perceive a horse. The senses perceive horselike features – the color, the shape, the smell, the sounds – all what typically belongs to a horse. Our human mind has the ability to abstract from these multiple characteristics a unified and universal notion of a horse. Thus, even though every horse is different we can still recognize a horse and distinguish it from anything that is not a horse. Thus we build a general notion that remains in our mind (memory). When we see another object of horselike features our mind associates it with the idea of a horse and thus we can recognize a horse in an animal that we have never seen before. The grand claim of the moderate realism is that the universal horse, or we should rather say – a horse nature, is actually present in every individual horse. In fact it is not our mind that builds the notion of a horse. The horseness exists there in each particular horse and our mind discovers it rather than creates. And the same horse nature exists in each horse. This is precisely why we are able to recognize a horse as a horse even if we haven’t seen this particular horse before. If nominalists were right, how could it happen? Every single feature of a new horse we see is slightly different from a feature of a horse we had seen. Hence, if horse (understood as a horse nature) did not exist in every horse we could not recognize a horse. In terms of moderate realism we can explain our ability of classifying objects thanks to the fact that we recognize the common nature existing in them. Let’s repeat: Moderate realism is the cornerstone of all Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy. Without adopting it one cannot fully embrace Thomistic arguments.


Thomistic Philosophy: An Introduction – Thomas Aquinas on Evolution and Intelligent Design

Post-Kant it may not be possible to be anything other than a nominalist.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Paulomycin
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
I explained it earlier. You redacted the explanation from your quote of me.

"There is no objective definition of any word," is self-refuting. Why? Because if all the words used in the statement are not objectively defined, then the assertion is false. But if all the words in the statement are objectively defined, then the statement is also false.

Therefore, self-refuting.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed

Self-refuting idea - Wikipedia.

Examples:

  • There is no truth” (If there is no truth, then this statement is false, because there would be at least one truth, namely, that there is no truth).
  • You should not judge” (This statement is a judgment, and so it refutes itself).
  • The scientific method is the only means of knowing truth” (But what about this claim to truth? If this claim were true, then it would be false, since it is a claim to truth that is not known by the scientific method).
  • History is unknowable” (If true, then this very statement would be unknowable. Why? By the time you read this statement and get to the last word, the first two words are already history. Thus, even comprehending this statement implies that at least some things from the past can be known in the present).
  • You should be tolerant of views not your own” (Then what about this view, since its different than the view of the one stating it?).
  • Language cannot carry meaning” (If language cannot carry meaning, then what about this claim? Is it meaningful?).
  • Truth cannot be known” (If so, then how does one know this truth claim?).
  • What's true for you isn’t true for me” (If so, then this claim is only true for the one who makes it and isn’t true for anyone else. If so, then why is the person bothering to make the claim in the first place since he obviously believes it does apply to others?).
  • You should not force your morals on others” (Is it okay to force this morality on others?)
  • I have freely chosen to embrace determinism” (If determinism is true, then nothing is freely chosen. If you freely choose, then determinism is false).
So, you'll notice that they're not only self-refuting (i.e. illogical), but they're also hypocritical. Therefore the assertion, "There is no objective definition of any word," would also be meaningless, since there would be no objective definition of any word in the very same statement. It cancels itself out.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.