Border Crisis

[Speedwell]

If he intended on living on my property yes I would trespass him.

And when would you determine that he had that intent? Or would you just force him back into his own yard at once because he might have it?

 

[Speedwell]

Depends upon what you mean by "worse".

I don't think any vastly large group of people can be considered better or worse than another unless you're comparing them by a specific measurable factor.

If the factor is something like education...sure, generally speaking, poor people fleeing central American nations tend to be less educated and the education they do have is of a poorer quality than the average Mexican economic migrant.

Yet we fuss ourselves about refugees--in this case, children--while neglecting to take obvious and easy steps to reduce the number of ordinary economic migrants. I don't see the lack of education of Triangle refugees compared to Mexican economic migrants as sufficient justification for the gross disparity in our treatment.

 

[Ringo84]

Borders between countries are just as real, not imaginary, as the property line between me and my neighbor's property. I'm responsible for taking care of what's on my side of that line, physically and financially. It would be a real mess without property lines/borders.

To me, people matter more than imaginary (they are imaginary, as there is no physical line down there) lines.
Ringo

 

[mark46]

Asylum Fact 1 | Center for Victims of Torture (cvt.org)

Yes, the US has the UN responsibility to protect asylum seekers from persecution. Few countries meet these responsibilities. However, we should understand this does NOT require anything but putting folks in camps until they can return or go to a third country that will accept them. Countries have a sovereign right to decide who and how many refugees it accepts into their country as potential members of their society.

Refugees camps for many years are the norm.
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US law requires that within 180 days, a case be decided. In the meantime, facilities near the border are within the law. Hotels could be built if necessary.
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But let's be VERY clear. Are we suggesting the US accept all refugees as potential citizens, all who reach our borders? If so, be prepared for many millions. If Canadian and Mexican refugees organization understand that the US is accepting all refugees, there will be millions.

WHY WILL THERE BE MILLIONS
There would be millions because many millions will die in their countries unless they can escape. Unless prevented by US actions and agreements, Canada and Mexico might very well cooperate is saving the lives of these folks.

BOTTOM LINE SOLUTION
The US needs to make decisions about what we want as a country. Unless there is legislation, the most "reasonable" actions are
1) Meet with Mexico and make it clear that the US will not tolerate folks crossing their territory in order to enter the US as refugees. Provide financial assistance, if necessary, for them to police their borders and to deport as they see fit.

2) When refugees or asylum seekers reach the US, there must be clear guidelines with regard to staying in the US. Cases should be adjudicated within 72 hours if possible, with folks deported quickly. There should be hotels and perhaps a city where folks live until hearings within 6 months.

3) This will be an issue in every election until we have a better immigration system. I think that this is reasonable. IMO, welcoming millions of refugees a year simply because they were able to cross Mexico is not a winning issue for Democrats.

 

[Hank77]

To me, people matter more than imaginary (they are imaginary, as there is no physical line down there) lines.
Ringo

If we didn't have borders where people have to be vetted in order to stay we wouldn't just be flooded with good people searching for a better life but also the cartels, etc. that are a major part of the danger and poverty in Central American countries. It wouldn't be long before the US would be just as dangerous and poor as those countries leaving us unable to help anyone.

 

[mark46]

No, their claims for asylum should be adjudicated.

I think there needs to be a better understanding by all of us about what asylum is and how it is granted.

Asylum Fact 1 | Center for Victims of Torture (cvt.org)

 

[Ringo84]

If we didn't have borders where people have to be vetted in order to stay we wouldn't just be flooded with good people searching for a better life but also the cartels, etc. that are a major part of the danger and poverty in Central American countries. It wouldn't be long before the US would be just as dangerous and poor as those countries leaving us unable to help anyone.

Seems like a slippery slope to me. I wonder how many people showing up at the border actually have anything to do with a cartel and are just impoverished people trying to flee a country we helped to destroy.
Ringo

 

[Hank77]

Meet with Mexico and make it clear that the US will not tolerate folks crossing their territory in order to enter the US as refugees

"We won't tolerate?" We can't tell Mexico who they will allow in their country. So how do you propose that the US "convince" Mexico to respond to our wishes?

 

[Speedwell]

"We won't tolerate?" We can't tell Mexico who they will allow in their country. So how do you propose that the US "convince" Mexico to respond to our wishes?

While at the same time we make it easy for Mexicans to sneak over the border.

 

[Hank77]

Seems like a slippery slope to me. I wonder how many people showing up at the border actually have anything to do with a cartel and are just impoverished people trying to flee a country we helped to destroy.
Ringo

I don't think there are many now but if we just eliminated the border, as you propose, they would be free to come in and they would. There would be no vetting process or deportation mechism to keep them out.

 

[Speedwell]

If we didn't have borders where people have to be vetted in order to stay we wouldn't just be flooded with good people searching for a better life but also the cartels, etc. that are a major part of the danger and poverty in Central American countries. It wouldn't be long before the US would be just as dangerous and poor as those countries leaving us unable to help anyone.

The drug criminals--and the drugs--mostly come in through ports of entry. It's apparently only the poor peasants we want to keep out.

 

[Speedwell]

I don't think there are many now but if we just eliminated the border, as you propose, they would be free to come in and they would. There would be no vetting process or deportation mechism to keep them out.

He's not proposing we "eliminate the border" only that we recognize it for what it is. Anybody who has lived on that border for any length of time will agree with him.

 

[Hank77]

While at the same time we make it easy for Mexicans to sneak over the border.

Do you have an answer for stopping the caravans from Central America?

 

[Ringo84]

I don't think there are many now but if we just eliminated the border, as you propose, they would be free to come in and they would. There would be no vetting process or deportation mechism to keep them out.

It's hard to find legitimate information because most of the scaremongering over cartels comes from right-wing rags. This still sounds like fear-based immigration policy. It seems to me that open borders would allow people who want to flee here because of trouble in their home country the ability to do so quickly and easily, without having to jump through bureaucratic hoops. That's a good thing.
Ringo

 

[Speedwell]

Do you have an answer for stopping the caravans from Central America?

1. Establish centers where these refugees can be housed in humane conditions while their cases are being heard.
2. Stop contributing to the failure of the countries they are fleeing from.

 

[Desk trauma]

He's not proposing we "eliminate the border" only that we recognize it for what it is.

A distinction with out a difference. Eliminating any immigration restrictions, as he clearly says he wants along with paying and housing all commers, would have the same effect.

 

[mark46]

"We won't tolerate?" We can't tell Mexico who they will allow in their country. So how do you propose that the US "convince" Mexico to respond to our wishes?

You are correct. We cannot force Mexico to stop allowing folks to enter their country in order to travel 1000 miles to seek asylum in the US. However, we can influence Mexico as we do other countries. We can us diplomatic means. If that doesn't work, other actions relating to incentives, trade and tariffs are the next step.

To be blunt, if the actions of another country damage the interests of the US, the US has means to act.
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BOTTOM LINE
Allowing millions to seek asylum is either acceptable to our government or not. If not, the government should expect to act. Surely, we can envision the campaign ads in 2022 and 2024 if their is no effective action. And it is not just the ads, it is the effect on House and Senate races.

 

[Aldebaran]

To me, people matter more than imaginary (they are imaginary, as there is no physical line down there) lines.
Ringo

Is the property line between your house and your neighbor's house imaginary? If so, won't you please not be my neighbor? I've seen what happens when people don't respect boundaries. It turns out that they don't respect much of anything at all, including themselves.

 

[Speedwell]

Is the property line between your house and your neighbor's house imaginary? If so, won't you please not be my neighbor? I've seen what happens when people don't respect boundaries. It turns out that they don't respect much of anything at all, including themselves.

But if your neighbors house was on fire and he fled into your yard, would you make him go back before the fire was out?

 

[Desk trauma]

But if your neighbors house was on fire and he fled into your yard, would you make him go back before the fire was out?

A poor comparison. The fire will be out in a matter of hours at the worst in which time the neighbor will not need any material support from you to exist on your side of the property line. It will be years at the least before the problems in the countries people are fleeing from are significantly controlled never mind solved. A better comparison would be the neighbor seeing their house aflame abandons it with no intention of return and sets up shop on your land without requesting persimmon nor offering compensation.