Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

[Direct Driver]

Do you really not understand the difference between the way a car is made and the way living things are made?

It's an analogy.

Only in our dreams could we create cars the way God created life. It's self repairing, self replicating, and rises on its own out of the raw materials around it. We're not that smart.

 

[AV1611VET]

The German engineers who built the Hindenburg knew perfectly well that hydrogen was dangerously explosive and that helium would have been safer.

What changed their mind?

 

[Astrid]

It's an analogy.

Only in our dreams could we create cars the way God created life. It's self repairing, self replicating, and rises on its own out of the raw materials around it. We're not that smart.

Is God smart enough to make a universe that can
run itself without his having to tinker with it?

Corollary...wonder if anyone is smart enough to show
that its not what he did.

 

[Astrophile]

What changed their mind?

They didn't change their minds about the dangers of hydrogen; they had to use it because they couldn't obtain helium, and they designed the Hindenburg so as to reduce the danger that it would catch fire or explode. Unfortunately, their precautions were not good enough.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

What changed their mind?

God fearing US politicians.

 

[AV1611VET]

God fearing US politicians.

Christian politicians to the rescue!

I wonder how many lives were saved because of them?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Christian politicians to the rescue!

I wonder how many lives were saved because of them?

If it had been helium filled there would have been no fire, so probably none. As it stands, 36 people died when your Christian politicians came to the rescue.

 

[AV1611VET]

If it had been helium filled there would have been no fire, so probably none. As it stands, 36 people died when your Christian politicians came to the rescue.

Bear, a hydrogen-filled airship catches fire, and people die.

Then they switch to helium.

I asked what changed their minds and made them switch to helium.

You say it's because Christian politicians changed their minds.

I say hooray for Christian politicians.

Now you say it was the Christian politicians who were to blame.

What gives here?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Bear, a hydrogen-filled airship catches fire, and people die.

Then they switch to helium.

I asked what changed their minds and made them switch to helium.

You say it's because Christian politicians changed their minds.

I say hooray for Christian politicians.

Now you say it was the Christian politicians who were to blame.

What gives here?

Perhaps you should read what others post. As Astrophile explained earlier, the airship was designed for helium but the US politicians refused to sell helium to Germany. So they had to change to hydrogen. Ergo, US Christian politicians coming to the rescue were a major contributing factor in the deaths.

 

[AV1611VET]

So they had to change to hydrogen.

I disagree.

They didn't have to do anything.

No one made Germany build the Hindenburg.

And no one said we had to sell helium to Germany.

Germany: I'd like to buy some helium.
United States: Not for sale.
Germany: Fine. Then I'll use hydrogen, and it'll be your fault if anything happens.
United States: LOL -- you guys may be stupid, but you're not that stupid. Hydrogen-filled airship? No way.

 

[AV1611VET]

... they had to use it ...

Said who?

... because they couldn't obtain helium,

That's like saying they had to use sticks of dynamite, because they couldn't obtain candles.

Who was twisting these peoples' arms to get this Hindenburg off the ground and take people on a joy ride in a floating casket?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I disagree.

They didn't have to do anything.

No one made Germany build the Hindenburg.

And no one said we had to sell helium to Germany.

Germany: I'd like to buy some helium.
United States: Not for sale.
Germany: Fine. Then I'll use hydrogen, and it'll be your fault if anything happens.
United States: LOL -- you guys may be stupid, but you're not that stupid. Hydrogen-filled airship? No way.

UK: I'd like to buy some helium
US: Not for sale
UK: Fine. Then I'll use hydrogen. Thanks for nothing, friend.
<R101 crashes and kills 56 people>
Germany: I'd like to buy some helium because hydrogen is unsafe as seen when British R101 crashed.
US: Not for sale. Don't care if hydrogen is not safe.
Germany: We use it to bring US passengers back to US. You get money from the trade route.
US: Not listening. Don't care.
Germany: OK, we'll try to make things safe, but you could be more helpful.
US: Lalalalala. We're not listening.

 

[AV1611VET]

UK: I'd like to buy some helium
US: Not for sale
UK: Fine. Then I'll use hydrogen. Thanks for nothing, friend.
<R101 crashes and kills 56 people>
Germany: I'd like to buy some helium because hydrogen is unsafe as seen when British R101 crashed.
US: Not for sale. Don't care if hydrogen is not safe.
Germany: We use it to bring US passengers back to US. You get money from the trade route.
US: Not listening. Don't care.
Germany: OK, we'll try to make things safe, but you could be more helpful.
US: Lalalalala. We're not listening.

I don't get this.

If it's not for sale, it's not for sale ... period.

Had Germany coerced the U.S. into selling them its helium, then every country would threaten to fill their airships with hydrogen.

Quote: “The Congress has prohibited export sale of helium unless it is found that the quantity, under the circumstances, is not of military importance. The sale is so guarded that it requires the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and also unanimous approval of the National Munitions Control Board, which consists of the Secretaries of State, War, Navy, Treasury, and Commerce. Congress has in effect required unanimous agreement of six Cabinet officers that a proposed sale is not of military importance in order to authorize sale. This is a discretion which each such Cabinet officer may exercise for himself.”*

* SOURCE

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I don't get this.

If it's not for sale, it's not for sale ... period.

Had Germany coerced the U.S. into selling them its helium, then every country would threaten to fill their airships with hydrogen.

Quote: “The Congress has prohibited export sale of helium unless it is found that the quantity, under the circumstances, is not of military importance. The sale is so guarded that it requires the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and also unanimous approval of the National Munitions Control Board, which consists of the Secretaries of State, War, Navy, Treasury, and Commerce. Congress has in effect required unanimous agreement of six Cabinet officers that a proposed sale is not of military importance in order to authorize sale. This is a discretion which each such Cabinet officer may exercise for himself.”*

* SOURCE

Your argument is that scientists chose hydrogen over helium. The truth of the matter is that scientists chose helium, but Christian politicians in US made a decision which forced engineers (not scientists) to alter designs. That had fatal consequences.

Following the Hindenburg disaster airship development pretty much stopped and Germany turned to aircraft. How many lives did the Hindenburg crash save? Since it was indirectly responsible for the development of German bombers, the accident probably led to thousands more deaths than the 36 that day.

United States: LOL -- you guys may be stupid, but you're not that stupid. Hydrogen-filled airship? No way.

Roma, 1922. Nobody's that stupid, eh?

 

[SelfSim]

Looks like the export of Helium was Ok in 1930, according to Hoover(?):

Herbert Hoover [electronic resource] : 1930 : containing the public messages, speeches, and statements of the president, January 1 to December 31, 1930 : Hoover, Herbert, 1874-1964 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Looks like the export of Helium was Ok in 1930, according to Hoover(?):

Herbert Hoover [electronic resource] : 1930 : containing the public messages, speeches, and statements of the president, January 1 to December 31, 1930 : Hoover, Herbert, 1874-1964 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


View attachment 296281

View attachment 296283

Helium Act of 1925.

 

[SelfSim]

Helium Act of 1925.

Both may be correct, (and post-war politics may have still been at play)?(Very interesting!)

Hoover reckons private companies were free to export 2 years before 1930:

PS: From your link, I notice there were several subsequent amendments .. (not sure what they were specifically though.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Both may be correct, (and post-war politics may have still been at play)?(Very interesting!)

Hoover reckons private companies were free to export 2 years before 1930:

View attachment 296287

Since helium was largely used in the zeppelins used by the Germans to attack Britain as well as to act as reconnaissance for trans-Atlantic shipping during WW1, and there was also still the Treaty of Versailles in effect, which forbade Germany from having any dirigibles or zeppelins in the military... yeah, post-war politics, I'd say.

 

[AV1611VET]

The truth of the matter is that scientists chose helium, but Christian politicians in US made a decision which forced engineers (not scientists) to alter designs.

Thanks for the QED of Post 310.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Thanks for the QED of Post 310.

The truth is often unpalatable.