1 John 1:9

[Servus]

What you witnessed in that post was the 5 step plan of salvation according to the church of Christ. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, the CoC teaches salvation by faith and works.

Faith and Repentance

That explains a lot.

 

[Butterball1]

The question is, how much human endeavor is needed to create a formula for salvation?

God "needs" us to choose to accept Him in order to maintain our free will. But how much does God need from us beyond that?

God is the one who set up HIS formula for salvation:

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Matthew 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

I did not write the above verses but I do believe them as millions of other people have. Those who choose to attack these simple verses do so simply because they do not fit their preconceived ideas. We have seen proof before our on eyes on this forum as to how they go about butchering these verses. These butcherers have got you to the point you cannot even accept verb tenses or moods, that you would have those who quit believing saved anyway.

 

[HIM]

And all are born spiritually dead in Adam. .

Where did you get that idea?

 

[Dave L]

Where did you get that idea?

Paul, in Romans 5. Why do babies who never sin die in the womb? The wages of sin is death?

 

[Butterball1]

What you witnessed in that post was the 5 step plan of salvation according to the church of Christ. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, the CoC teaches salvation by faith and works.

Faith and Repentance

What do you mean by "works"????

Are you saying for me that I believe salvation is merited by works I do????

 

[Servus]

God is the one who set up HIS formula for salvation:

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Matthew 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

I did not write the above verses but I do believe them as millions of other people have. Those who choose to attack these simple verses do so simply because they do not fit their preconceived ideas. We have seen proof before our on eyes on this forum as to how they go about butchering these verses. These butcherers have got you to the point you cannot even accept verb tenses or moods, that you would have those who quit believing saved anyway.

Well you can't expect everyone to view scripture though a CoC lense.

 

[HIM]

Paul, in Romans 5.

Thought so.
There is a physical death and Spiritual. Romans 5 deals with the physical.

 

[HIM]

Well you can't expect everyone to view scripture though a CoC lense.

How does your comment prove what he posted wrong?

 

[Danthemailman]

What do you mean by "works"????

Are you saying for me that I believe salvation is merited by works I do????

Many people who teach salvation by works typically say they don't believe that salvation is merited by works, but it's sugar coated double talk. Here is a statement below from someone who attends the church of Christ that I was in a discussion with a while back:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

Well if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ help to save us, then there is merit in performing those works in order to receive eternal life. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Servus]

How does your comment prove what he posted wrong?

I was saying others aren't necessarily wrong because they don't subscribe to the CoC method of interpretation.

 

[Butterball1]

Well you can't expect everyone to view scripture though a CoC lense.

There is no lens to be needed to view the simplicity of those verses. It takes a lens to not see the simplicity of those verses, one must work hard at not understanding the simlicirty of those verses.

The bias against these verse stems from the false teaching of faith only and the horrible misconception that if one does a work it means one is trying to merit God's free gift. Yet those that make this false assumption cannot show the first example from the Bible of one who was obedient to God yet their obedience is said to have earned God's free gift.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

I think you & I can agree that the saving of Noah's house was a matter of God's grace, a free gift for God did not owe it to Noah. Right?

Yet God put a precondition on this free gift of His, He commanded Noah to build an ark to receive this free gift. This obedient work in building the ark was not an option but a required necessity IN ORDER for Noah to receive this free gift...no work = no salvation of his household..simple enough. Note how his obedient work did NOT earn the free gift, it is not said to earn God's free gift but Noah's obedient work was just meeting a precondition GOd placed upon His free gift and Noah's work earned him NOTHING. Also note that the verse does NOT say Noah built the ark BECAUSE his house was already saved from a flood that had not yet occurred. It DOES say Noah was to build the ark to (eis) in order to receive the free gift. How simple can it get???? Watch how (ironically) hard faith onlyists must WORK to get around the simplicity of this. Noah obediently doing the work in building the ark did not earn God's free gift no more than my obedience in doing the work of believing, repenting, confessing or submitting to baptism did not earn God's free gift. Martin Luther and John Calvin were not nearly as clever as some people think.

 

[Butterball1]

Many people who teach salvation by works typically say they don't believe that salvation is merited by works, but it's sugar coated double talk. Here is a statement below from someone who attends the church of Christ that I was in a discussion with a while back:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

Well if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ help to save us, then there is merit in performing those works in order to receive eternal life. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

You claimed you one attended the church of Christ but I am having a hard time believing it. Your refusal to understand that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting those preconditons does not in any sense earn the free gift does not make me wrong.

What Christ did on the cross He did it for every man Hebrews 2:9 then why isn't every man saved? Because every man will not obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) failing to take advantage of what Christ did do on His cross.

SHow me an example of a person obeying God where his obedience is said to have earned God's free gift.

 

[Servus]

There is no lens to be needed to view the simplicity of those verses. It takes a lens to not see the simplicity of those verses, one must work hard at not understanding the simlicirty of those verses.

The bias against these verse stems from the false teaching of faith only and the horrible misconception that if one does a work it means one is trying to merit God's free gift. Yet those that make this false assumption cannot show the first example from the Bible of one who was obedient to God yet their obedience is said to have earned God's free gift.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

I think you & I can agree that the saving of Noah's hoise was a matter of God's grace, a free gift for God did not owe it to Noah. Right?

Yet God put a precondition on this free gift of His, He commanded Noah to build an ark to reeive this free gift. This obdient work in building the ark was not an option but a required necessity IN ORDER for Noah to receive this free gift...no work = no salvation of his household..simple enough. Note how his obedient work did NOT earn the free gift, it is not said to earn God's free gift but Noah's obedient work was just meeting a precondition GOd placed upon His free gift and Noah's work earned him NOTHING. Also note that the verse does NOT say Noah built the ark BECAUSE his hoouse was already saved from a flood that had not yet occurred. It DOES say Noah was to build the ark to (eis) in order to reveive the free gift. How simple can it get???? Watch how (ironically) hard faith onlyists must WORK to get around the simlicity of this. Noah obediently doing the work in building the ark did not earn God's free gift no more than my obedience in doing the work of believing, repenting, confessing or submitting to baptism did not earn God's free gift. Martin Luther and John Calvin were not nearly as clever as some people think.

It seemed to me that you were making them less simple with going on about subjunctive mood etc.

 

[Butterball1]

It seemed to me that you were making them less simple with going on about subjunctive mood etc.

I am just going with the facts, not ignoring them. I have no reason to ignore facts (verb tenses and moods) when they support my position. Those that don't want to go along with the facts is because the facts do not line up with their personal bias.


DId Noah's obedient work earn him God's free gift?

 

[HIM]

I was saying others aren't necessarily wrong because they don't subscribe to the CoC method of interpretation.

But the text that they shared stand as they are written.

Like in Luke 13 In respect to sin a condition of repentance must be met or there is a consequence, death. Interesting Word our Savior chose in describing this death. The Greek word there translated perish means destroy fully.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[Danthemailman]

You claimed you one attended the church of Christ but I am having a hard time believing it. Your refusal to understand that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting those preconditons does not in any sense earn the free gift does not make me wrong.

What Christ did on the cross He did it for every man Hebrews 2:9 then why isn't every man saved? Because every man will not obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) failing to take advantage of what Christ did do on His cross.

SHow me an example of a person obeying God where his obedience is said to have earned God's free gift.

The free gift of salvation is received by grace through faith and not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16: 10:16) You confuse the act of obedience with becoming saved with acts of obedience after we are saved.

 

[Servus]

I am just going with the facts, not ignoring them. I have no reason to ignore facts (verb tenses and moods) when they support my position. Those that don't want to go along with the facts is because the facts do not line up with their personal bias.


DId Noah's obedient work earn him God's free gift?

Are you sure that "the saving of his house" didn't mean his house was saved from drowning?

 

[Butterball1]

But the text that they shared stand as they are written.

Like in Luke 13 In respect to sin a condition of repentance must be met or there is a consequence, death. Interesting Word our Savior chose in describing this death. The Greek word there translated perish means destroy fully.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And if we combine John 3:16 with Luke 13:3 we get:

Jn 3:16-----------------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish
Lk 13:3----------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish

All the belief alone in the world will never save an impenitent person, and that NT belief therefore MUST include repentance.

 

[Servus]

But the text that they shared stand as they are written.

Like in Luke 13 In respect to sin a condition of repentance must be met or there is a consequence, death. Interesting Word our Savior chose in describing this death. The Greek word there translated perish means destroy fully.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

When you say text, do you mean the scriptures that were posted or the commentary that followed? Because I was commenting on the accusatory commentary.

In the scripture you provided I believe Jesus was saying unless the Jews changed their way of thinking, as in accepting Him as their Saviour, they would parish. To repent as I understand it means turning from unbelife to belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[Butterball1]

Are you sure that "the saving of his house" didn't mean his house was saved from drowning?

Save his house from the flood. Saving his house from dying in the flood was a free gift of grace, God certainly did not owe it to him. Yet Noah still had to do a work to receive the free gift. I see you are already hard a work looking for a way around the simplicity of this.

GOd did not owe Naaman anything, yet God graciously healed his disease BUT God attached a condition that Naaman had to first dip 7 times in the Jordan River. After stalling and complaining, he finally went and dipped and received the free gift. Again, an obedient work to receive a free gift and the gift was not earned.

Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized is the precondition upon receiving the free gift of 'remission of sins; yet the obedience work in repenting and submitting to baptism earns NOTHING.

Note again, Noah did not build the ark BECAUSE he was already saved from a flood that had not yet occurred, Naaman did not go and dip BECAUSE he was already healed, men do not repent and be baptised BECAUSE they already have remission of sins. See the total lack of logic faith onlyists create when they try and change the meaning of eis to 'because'?

More examples?