Status
Not open for further replies.

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,717
18,575
Orlando, Florida
✟1,264,774.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
People think their interpretation of scripture IS scripture, while everyone else are the ones doing interpretation.

All religious discourse is a matter of interpretation.

The easiest defeater of Evangelicalism is simply pointing out the obvious fact that the original documents of the Bible have no table of contents to define what is, and is not the Bible (which is why Christians have not one Bible, but many Bibles, each having similar yet different contents). Even if there were a divinely inspired document that was inerrant... how would we know it by some "objective" standard?
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,638
15,781
Colorado
✟434,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
All religion is interpretation. Otherwise you are talking about apophatic mysticism.

The easiest defeater of Evangelicalism is simply pointing out the obvious fact that the original documents of the Bible have no table of contents to define what is, and is not the Bible (which is why Christians have not one Bible, but many Bibles, each having similar yet different contents). Even if there were a divinely inspired document that was inerrant... how would we know it by some "objective" standard?
It's a matter of faith, not objectivity. I think every believer secretly knows this.

Yet believers persist in pronouncing their particular interpretations of scripture as absolutely correct for everyone else. I don't understand this.
 
Upvote 0

Religiot

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2020
1,046
384
Private
✟29,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A member sent this to me. “This is a time when the USA needs to be striving for unity, not divisiveness.”

Biden has called for unity. What are we to unify around, and why?
To unite with the world is to separate from Christ.

Believers should unify, to obey the Lord, in all that He says!

The Church of God should be first and foremost, against the evil that is rising right before our eyes, yet where is she? where is the Church in all of this?

The hell that's coming will see to it that we conform or go out to the wilderness--most, of course, will conform.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
A member sent this to me. “This is a time when the USA needs to be striving for unity, not divisiveness.”

Biden has called for unity. What are we to unify around, and why?
What a sad indictment for the USA if you have to pose this question. If you don't believe you should unify, and instead resort to the pathetic display on capitol hill, then your country will further sink in terms of national prosperity and relevance in the world.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I see what you are driving at... the fact/value distinction that Hume articulated.
Indeed. I'm not married to the sort of strict separation between them that I think Hume had, but obviously there's a distinction to be made there.


I think it's a good heuristic, but I don't believe in absolutism. I reject the Christian concept of sin or that there are absolute and objective moral laws.
I'd agree it's a good heuristic, and for Christians at least it should point toward love of God and love of neighbor. I just find it kind of vapid when the golden rule is thrown out sometimes by people who haven't thought too hard about it, as if the rule in isolation is the end-all of moral thought. Honestly I think I'm probably projecting past interactions with others onto you and inferring things you aren't really stating or implying. I apologize for that.

My perspective is as a spiritual humanist who is somewhat of a perennialist. The Rev. Dr. Gordon Bermant, the former bishop of the Buddhist Church of America, articulated it well in a lecture I saw a while back- western civilization has reached a dead end because it's divorced ethics from the rest of philosophy, instead of having ethics central to philosophical questions, as it is in Buddhism. The result has been nihilism, the sort of nihilism that Nietzsche prophesied. That is why you see moral decay and anomie in our society. Christian fundamentalism is merely a manifestation of that nihilism, and Christian nationalism even moreso. People believe in the forms of the religion, but discover it has no substance.

It goes back to that fact/value distinction I mentioned earlier. In divorcing value from facts, the door is opened to nihilism. This isn't an inevitability, but is due to the spurious use of reason and the assumption that there is no intrinsic moral ordering immanent in the world, no interrelationship between phenomena, etc.
Very interesting. Is that lecture online somewhere? If it is, would you happen to have a link to it? I'd be quite interested in checking it out.

Christian nationalism as a term is a little nebulous -- it can range from, say, supporting certain policies because you think those best reflect Christian teaching, all the way to clerical fascists like Codreanu and his Iron Guard. I'd somewhat agree about Fundamentalism, insofar as it's a reaction to some of the increasingly liberal theology that permeated a lot of Protestantism in the latter 19th century. That's not to say it's nihilistic in its outlook, of course.

I wonder whether the fact/value separation is in itself enough for the sort of Western nihilism you've described. My feeling is that it would have to come along with some of the other byproducts of liberalism (the Enlightenment kind), like the focus on the primacy of individual reason, the conception of man as a naturally free actor who ought not be constrained by unchosen duties and obligations, the erosion of the idea of moral authority, etc.

I also wonder how all this compares to the situation in places where Christianity was never really dominant, particularly in China or other parts of East Asia that were heavily influenced by Buddhism. I know a bit more about Japan than other places in this regard, but I wonder about China specifically because of their recent history.

Yeah, there are a lot of rabbit holes I'd love to go down.
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I don't in an absolute sense, I merely have reasonable confidence and hold my beliefs provisionally. I am open to correction. However, I have seen insufficient evidence that would imply I was wrong.

The Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh, the founder of the order in which I studied Buddhism, articulated 14 rules for spiritual training, two of which I think are most pertinent, and wise:
I actually have a copy of his book Living Buddha, Living Christ that I borrowed a while back. I really ought to get around to reading it.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree with what Jesus said. I am not convinced that the division is a result of judgement. The pandemic I don't know. I think the aids pandemic would be a closer possibility of judgement.
God controls all that happens. He sends his 4 sore judgements, war, famine, sickness, and wild animals (that also spread disease). Take your pick. If he didn't send this today, who did?
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
lol, what?
This makes God the Author of confusion and us mindless automatons...you might wanna re-think this one?
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I don't in an absolute sense, I merely have reasonable confidence and hold my beliefs provisionally. I am open to correction.
Then there’s no point in discussing anything with you, since you could be wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I take my church as having more authority than your interpretation of scripture.
Where do they get that authority? You didn’t answer that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,659
15,994
✟487,768.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I asked for unity.
Plus said that everyone must come around to your way of thinking for that unity to happen.

Where's that cartoon where a conservative is asking for compromise, and when the centrist moves to the right, the conservative steps back and asks again? Goes back to the point that people shouldn't fall for this sort of a call for "unity".
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Scripture.
Of course, but that does not explain where you get the authority to assert your interpretation of scripture as the only correct one. Ordinarily it wouldn't matter to me, because we do not differ on the essential doctrines of the faith (see the CF definition of Christian, for example) but as you apparently desire your interpretation of scripture to be the basis for political authority in a secular republic, it wants some justification.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: mark46
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,659
15,994
✟487,768.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Then there’s no point in discussing anything with you, since you could be wrong.
You'll have to tell the OP that he's wasting his time posting here. If there's no point discussing anything with an audience who could possibly be wrong, that rules out any sort of communication with any human anywhere on the planet.

Seems like a weird point of view, but oh well, I won't be upset if we see fewer threads like this in the coming years. Gets a certain set of people out of the way while the rest of us look to actually accomplish something useful.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Aryeh Jay
Upvote 0

Groot

Member
Jan 23, 2021
15
18
48
Maryland
✟441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
A member sent this to me. “This is a time when the USA needs to be striving for unity, not divisiveness.”

Biden has called for unity. What are we to unify around, and why?

You know what? I don't know. That is why I came here to see what people are thinking. These times are very confusing for me. I didn't vote, but For like forever, I was told Trump supporters are nuts. Biden won the election and were still talking about Trump as if he is important. Why?

I heard Trumpians saying covid was being exploited for the election. Not 3 days after taking office the all clear is given, and america is opening back up. Then once we are opened back up our economy is going to improve. I'm sorry, but was that intentional?

I heard Trump supporters saying this country was turning communist and they needed to defend it. Then the great purge happened. And all the restrictions on free speech. How am I supposed to take that in reference to unity? I don't like trump, but I feel like I was lied to. Were they as crazy as they sounded??

The entire capital looks like a prison yard, and no one is attacking them. I do not understand what I am seeing here. Not only does none of this make sense in the pursuit of unity, it makes no sense in reality. None of this fits what I was lead to believe. Where are the raging Trump supporters armed to their teeth storming the capital? They're not there. They lost. Now they are licking their wounds looking to 2022.

Now everything Trump has done will be undone. Just like Trump undoing everything Obama has done. What are we unifying? Trump wasn't a unifier. Why are we acting like him?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Plus said that everyone must come around to your way of thinking for that unity to happen.

Where's that cartoon where a conservative is asking for compromise, and when the centrist moves to the right, the conservative steps back and asks again? Goes back to the point that people shouldn't fall for this sort of a call for "unity".
Well, we have to unify around something fixed. King Jesus is the most reasonable.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Of course, but that does not explain where you get the authority to assert your interpretation of scripture as the only correct one. Ordinarily it wouldn't matter to me, because we do not differ on the essential doctrines of the faith (see the CF definition of Christian, for example) but as you apparently desire your interpretation of scripture to be the basis for political authority in a secular republic, it wants some justification.
It’s the authority for all of life. For instance

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities⁠—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
— Colossians 1:16

And

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,209
25,223
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,731,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You'll have to tell the OP that he's wasting his time posting here. If there's no point discussing anything with an audience who could possibly be wrong, that rules out any sort of communication with any human anywhere on the planet.

Seems like a weird point of view, but oh well, I won't be upset if we see fewer threads like this in the coming years. Gets a certain set of people out of the way while the rest of us look to actually accomplish something useful.
I am the OP.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.