Looking for literal Creationists among Sabbath keeping groups - are you one?

[BobRyan]

Ok so I am looking for literal Creationists that believe that just before day 1 of creation week the Earth was in this form - with no life on it

2 And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Are you one of those?

If so I need your help with a project.

 

[BobRyan]

If that is you - then

1. please go here and view these two posts. #1 #2

2. If you agree with the posts - please reply (don't just add an emoticon) to the first post -- so then add a comment regarding your agreement.

3. Then come back here if you want to discuss the topic or comments you find there. Since this is a safe place for Creationists to post and we can discuss any point we wish without being insulted.

(But be very careful not to reply to atheists there that will then demean or accuse when seeing your comment -- as they can often be demeaning toward creationists when evolution is not spoken of with high praise)

================================ some background info

"The Purpose" of the thread I linked to -- is to create the platform of common ground between theists and creationists on "A-" the starting condition. (Namely that the Earth did exist at one time with absolutely no life on it). And also on "B-" the fact that we now exist on Earth with a wide diversity of life forms.

(We could add "obviously" -- but atheist are a bit wary by this time).

When you reply to the first post saying that you notice the details in it and find that it is stating something that is obvious and easy to follow. (If that is what you think of these two posts) -- you help disabuse the atheist self-talk that says "no details can be seen if they are not convenient to belief in evolution, and no post to that effect would be agreed to by the reader".

We help our atheist friends to embrace reality when we provide evidence of it - even though reality may not flatter some of the self-talk that is piled around belief in the doctrine on origins found in their particular evolution narrative.

 

[PeterJames0510]

I'm a non Sabbath keeping Young Earth Creationist. Lol.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm a non Sabbath keeping Young Earth Creationist. Lol.

Well welcome to the forum anyway

 

[HIM]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Do you think Verse one is part of Day one Ryan?

 

[DarylFawcett]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Do you think Verse one is part of Day one Ryan?

As he may have missed that post, I am alerting @BobRyan about that post.

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Do you think Verse one is part of Day one Ryan?

As he may have missed that post, I am alerting @BobRyan about that post.

Thanks for that


EACH day starts with "THEN God said" and ends with "evening and morning nth day" - (A time-boxed chronological sequence)

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters...And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered ...13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse ...19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem ... 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ... And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

This means that:
Gen 1:1 is a summary of all God's creative acts in the entire universe..
Gen 1:2 is intro ... preface to day 1. But day 1 starts in vs 3

So the actual 7 day timeline begins with vs 3.

Summary:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Intro/preface to day 1 of creations week:
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

The preface is a time when
1. Earth exists
2. the surface of the deep (face of the deep) - exists
3. The waters covering the Earth exists
4. There is "something" that is covered by water.

==================

So then vs 2 "Allows" for a state of Earth where it "exists" but has no life on it. So also is this the case on day 1 in vs 3,

and on day 2.

At all these points - Earth would be in a state where it "exists" but has no life on it.

 

[BobRyan]

At what other point is Earth "formless and void"??

NASB 1955
Jer 4:
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.

8414 Formless: תֹּהוּ tôhûw, to'-hoo; from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:—confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness

H8414 tohuw

Is 34:11

11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation (H8414)
And the plumb line of emptiness.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. KJV (H8414)


Jer 4:23

23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


==================================
Formless and Void state of Gen 1:2


1. "Earth exists" at that point -
2. It exist with water covering the surface of the deep. vs 2.
3. It has a surface of the waters. Vs 2
4. It also had "the surface of the deep" -- vs 2.
5. AND it had no life on it.
6. Formless and Void - Jer 4:23-26 with "hills moving to and fro"

 

[BobRyan]

I'm a non Sabbath keeping Young Earth Creationist. Lol.

Well then you may still have accepted a 7 day creation week that fits the description above #7 where earth exists in vs 2, and vs 3 and vs 4... but there was no life on earth at that point. So welcome to the thread

- would you like to click the link and note my comments in the first two posts of that area of the board - and indicate agreement with this point? If so then it might help a couple of atheists over there that struggle with the idea that other Creationists exist that hold to that POV.

 

[PeterJames0510]

Well then you may still have accepted a 7 day creation week that fits the description above #7 where earth exists in vs 2, and vs 3 and vs 4... but there was no life on earth at that point. So welcome to the thread

- would you like to click the link and note my comments in the first two posts of that area of the board - and indicate agreement with this point? If so then it might help a couple of atheists over there that struggle with the idea that other Creationists exist that hold to that POV.

Hmm, let me read over who you are writing to and why and then we'll see.

But in essence if I understand it correctly, day 1 & day 2 is stage setting for life to begin on day 3.

Interesting question, though ... what are the waters of day 1 and the seas of day 2. How are they different? I'm just realizing that for the first time *right now*. - Peter James

 

[BobRyan]

Hmm, let me read over who you are writing to and why and then we'll see.

But in essence if I understand it correctly, day 1 & day 2 is stage setting for life to begin on day 3.

Interesting question, though ... what are the waters of day 1 and the seas of day 2. How are they different? I'm just realizing that for the first time *right now*. - Peter James

Day one the darkness of vs 2 is divided into night and day.
Day two the waters of vs 2 are divided

If you check in the links in the OP you will see that the thread I point to is about Creation-vs-Evolution and the discussion is primarily with atheists. The reason for getting help here is to help establish "the context" -- that I am not the only Creationist that can see this detail.

When my children were very young -- I was trying to teach them to play hide and seek while I closed my eyes and counted to 10. Their first attempt at not being seen was to close their own eyes and remain standing there in front of me - or put their hand over their eyes -- as if the fact that they could not see themselves or see me -- would also mean that I could not see them either when 10 was up.

This is where the atheists are stuck - they can't find answers so they now respond with the idea that "if they see nothing" then everyone else also "can see nothing" in the points listed.

 

[rectitude]

Sabbath keeping creationist here.
I've read your posts on the other side.
You make it sound difficult to discuss with others not like minded.

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath keeping creationist here.
I've read your posts on the other side.
You make it sound difficult to discuss with others not like minded.

I try to start with facts that both atheists and creationists will admit to - because very often just looking at "the obvious" is enough to clarify some of the differences in POV and world view.

 

[HARK!]

This is a MUST SEE thread!:

Poll: Does the Theory of Evolution have practical applications?

SHABBAT SHALOM!

 

[HARK!]

It seems that the arguments that are being presented by those who support the ToE, that these mutations could have compounded against reasonable probability; "Because it did happen;" that these arguments could be flipped to purport that these mutations could have all occurred in the same day that these species "were created."

Feel free to build on this thought; and make it your own.

 

[DarylFawcett]

@BobRyan ???

Are you still following this thread?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I believe that the literal creation of the earth from absolute non existence (ie was void and without form) is true and accurate. God spoke everything into existence, it is a denial of the power of God to attempt to say he needed to work with an existing form. To go down this pathway is to allow evolutionary thoughts in the door and that leads to conflict, confusion, and ultimately a lowering of our view of the Almighty God.

I also believe that when God inspired Moses to write, and the evening and the morning were the first day...it really was "the first day". God said he created the earth in 7 days, I do not see any reason why one should attempt to manipulate that statement into meaning 7 individual days over millennia. I personally feel that any Christian movement who needs to believe creation is not 7 literal days is doing so because in believing in a literal 7 day creation week, for them, causes a conflict with another denominational habit...worshipping on Sunday. Literal creation is also to believe in the literal Seventh Day Sabbath and a God who said "not one jot nor tittle shall be changed from his laws and statutes..."

We obviously don't know exactly which day of the week the original sabbath is, however, God asks us to live by our conscience ("his laws are written on our hearts"..."we should listen to the still small voice"), it is better to worship on what is generally considered the Saturday from a historical point of view. The obvious tradition for the Biblical Sabbath is that found in the Jewish culture.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan ???

Are you still following this thread?

I am watching this thread - but it does not always pop up on my list when someone posts -- or maybe I miss the notification -- but I have it set to notify.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that the literal creation of the earth from absolute non existence (ie was void and without form) is true and accurate. God spoke everything into existence, it is a denial of the power of God to attempt to say he needed to work with an existing form. To go down this pathway is to allow evolutionary thoughts in the door and that leads to conflict, confusion, and ultimately a lowering of our view of the Almighty God.

I also believe that when God inspired Moses to write, and the evening and the morning were the first day...it really was "the first day". God said he created the earth in 7 days, I do not see any reason why one should attempt to manipulate that statement into meaning 7 individual days over millennia. I personally feel that any Christian movement who needs to believe creation is not 7 literal days is doing so because in believing in a literal 7 day creation week, for them, causes a conflict with another denominational habit...worshipping on Sunday. Literal creation is also to believe in the literal Seventh Day Sabbath and a God who said "not one jot nor tittle shall be changed from his laws and statutes..."

We obviously don't know exactly which day of the week the original sabbath is, however, God asks us to live by our conscience ("his laws are written on our hearts"..."we should listen to the still small voice"), it is better to worship on what is generally considered the Saturday from a historical point of view. The obvious tradition for the Biblical Sabbath is that found in the Jewish culture.

I agree that Sabbath keeping demands a real literal 7 day creation week, but I am not sure that Sunday keeping would not also be fully satisfied with a 7 day creation week. They still have a 7 day week with week-day-1 being sunday the first day of the week - the day on which Jesus was resurrected. So it would not hurt their doctrine at all to have a real 7 day creation week.

But for Sabbath keeping Christians it seems to me to be very problematic for doctrine if it were accepted practice to toy with Genesis so that the week is not actually 7 days.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

yes, kinda sorta