When does it become "treason"?

[Michael]

Multiple senators are planning to object to certifying the 2020 presidential election

Treason: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

The various States have already certified all of their election results on a state by state basis. The Justice Department has weighed in and the courts have already tossed out the various frivolous lawsuits that were filed due to a lack of supporting evidence of wide spread voter fraud as alleged. No such evidence has been presented. The presenting of the electoral college results to Congress has always been a mere formality, particularly when the results are so heavily skewed in one candidate's favor.

Every congressman and senator swears an oath to uphold and protect our constitution and obey the laws of our Republic. Yet here we see Republican congressman and senators willing to essentially commit treason in an attempt to overthrow the lawfully elected new leader of this country. This isn't an issue related to a single state. It's an attempted federal takeover of all American civil liberties, including the right to elect our own leaders.

Trump lost this election. Not only did he lose the popular vote by over 7 million votes, he lost the electoral college vote too by a *wide* (as wide as the last one) margin. Even the results of a single state will not and do not change the electoral college results.

When Trump won the electoral college by the same margin, he called it a "massive landslide victory" even though he lost the popular vote then as well. Now however, Trump and his supporters are attempting to overthrow the results of the same legally certified "massive landslide victory", in spite of the fact that Biden won the various battleground states by a *much* wider margin than Trump did in the previous election!

IMO, we've now left the realm of Trump and the Republicans just being "poor sports" and "sore losers" and whiners, and we've entered the realm of blatant treason IMO. This kind of careless and reckless action by the Republicans threatens the very heart of our Republic, specifically the right to elect our own leaders!

Trump and his followers already had their chance in court to present their case and they *failed* and failed miserably. Not a single judge in our entire nation agree with any of the lawsuits. Failing to accept the results of the states is simply unacceptable, it's a breach of trust, a conflict of interest, and flat out treason IMO.

 

[seeking.IAM]

My senator is one. He has lost any chance of getting my vote forever. As far as I am concerned they are trying to usurp democracy and support a coup attempt.

 

[Michael]

My senator is one. He has lost any chance of getting my vote forever. As far as I am concerned they are trying to usurp democracy and support a coup attempt.

It certainly does feel and look like a third rate, Banana Republic "coup attempt" in every respect. Trump lost in the popular vote by over seven million votes. He lost the electoral college by the same margin that he won by the last time when he called it a "massive landslide victory", and Biden won the battleground states by a larger margin in this election than Trump did in the previous election.

This isn't funny or cute anymore.

 

[Speedwell]

Technically, I believe, it would be sedition, not treason. Treason is more strictly defined in the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

 

[Der Alte]

...
Trump lost this election. Not only did he lose the popular vote by over 7 million votes, he lost the electoral college vote too by a *wide* (as wide as the last one) margin. Even the results of a single state will not and do not change the electoral college results...

My senator is one. He has lost any chance of getting my vote forever. As far as I am concerned they are trying to usurp democracy and support a coup attempt.

Aren't both of you complaining about Trump doing exactly what the DP spent 4 years doing? Phony Russian dossier, phony collusion charges, phony impeachment charges trying to get Trump out of office.
So I guess it depends on whose ox got gored.
Is the U.S. president doing anything illegal? If not sit back and let it run its course.
In about 3 weeks none of this will matter the duly elected president will be in the Whitehouse and the loser will be out.

 

[Michael]

Technically, I believe, it would be sedition, not treason. Treason is more strictly defined in the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1345095714687377418

It certainly sounds like Trump is making a "call to arms" to Washington DC from my vantage point.

Stop the steal? The only person trying to "steal" anything is Trump himself. He's trying to steal an election which has been sanctioned by every state in the nation, by the courts, and over seven million American voters.

The only remaining question in terms of treason and sedition then is whether Trump and his supporters are willing answer his call and commit violence to try to overturn them.

Elections protests: DC police brace for Donald Trump demonstrators 1/6

Proud Boys to attend Jan. 6 DC rallies 'incognito'

I guess we'll know on January 7th whether it's treason or sedition, but either way, it's not funny anymore.

 

[Michael]

Aren't both of you complaining about Trump doing exactly what the DP spent 4 years doing? Phony Russian dossier, phony collusion charges, phony impeachment charges trying to get Trump out of office.
So I guess it depends on whose ox got gored.
Is the U.S. president doing anything illegal? If not sit back and let it run its course.
In about 3 weeks none of this will matter the duly elected president will be in the Whitehouse and the loser will be out.

I hope and assume that you're right.

It's just sad to see how much damage this single man has done to every single institution in our country, *including* to the very fabric of the nation itself, our unity as a nation.

It says "one nation" not one massively divided nation. Most Presidents have the maturity, the wisdom, the common sense, and the person "class" to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done. It's done out of respect for the instituions of our nation, including the electoral college.

Trump has dragged this nation through hell and back IMO. I"m *really* ready to see him just leave now.

If Trump and the Republicans want to do something useful next week, I suggest that they pass Trump's 2000 per person tax refund which Trump himself asked for, and which Congress has already passed. Instead, Trump and his congressional and senatorial followers seem hell bent on attempting a potentially violent coup attempt in DC.

Sheesh.

 

[JSRG]

Multiple senators are planning to object to certifying the 2020 presidential election

Treason: the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

When it comes to prosecuting someone for treason, the United States uses the definition of the constitution, not that of a dictionary. And the Constitution gives a very specific and narrow definition of treason:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Is this levying war? No. At most, they've tried to abuse the laws or rules and made a bunch of false statements. This is not levying war. Your specific citation is them objecting to the counting of the electoral votes. That is not treason; that is a perfectly allowable thing to do under the Electoral Count Act. Is it a wise thing to do? A moral thing to do? Maybe not. I now have my concerns about what will happen in a future presidential election where the House and Senate are both controlled by the opposite party of the winner. But the point is, not only is it not actual war, it's also allowed. It's not treason.

I do wish to also respond to the claim that "The presenting of the electoral college results to Congress has always been a mere formality, particularly when the results are so heavily skewed in one candidate's favor." (emphasis added) This is inaccurate. It is true that it is almost always a mere formality, not always. The results of the 1876 election were very much in dispute almost up until the day congress formally counted the vote. This resulted in the Compromise of 1877 where they reached an informal agreement in which the votes went to Rutherford Hayes in exchange for the end of Reconstruction. I suppose someone can say that by the time they counted the votes it was a formality, but that's really splitting hairs in my view.

Having established it is not levying war, is it "adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort"? This is even more clearly a no. (for the record, "enemies" means actual official enemies--that is, those the country has formally declared war on)

So there is no treason here. Period. Someone can certainly criticize their objecting to the count, but to claim it is treason is not a valid objection.

 

[Der Alte]

I hope and assume that you're right.
It's just sad to see how much damage this single man has done to every single institution in our country, *including* to the very fabric of the nation itself, our unity as a nation.
It says "one nation" not one massively divided nation. Most Presidents have the maturity, the wisdom, the common sense, and the person "class" to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done. It's done out of respect for the instituions of our nation, including the electoral college.
Trump has dragged this nation through hell and back IMO. I"m *really* ready to see him just leave now.
If Trump and the Republicans want to do something useful next week, I suggest that they pass Trump's 2000 per person tax refund which Trump himself asked for, and which Congress has already passed. Instead, Trump and his congressional and senatorial followers seem hell bent on attempting a potentially violent coup attempt in DC.
Sheesh.

You seem to have ignored the fact that the Democratic party did virtually everything you are accusing Trump of for four years trying to have Trump thrown out of office. Where was their "maturity,""wisdom,""common sense," and "'class' to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done?"
As I said it depends on whose ox got gored. The Democrats spent 4 years, 100s of hour of useless investigation and millions of dollars trying to throw Trump out of office. Where was all this unity then?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Whether it be the Supreme Court inventing imaginary constitutional amendments to use to strike down valid legislation,

or whether it be the EPA broadly defining "navigable waters" to include every puddle, with which to bludgeon people with environmental laws,

or whether it be Congress broadly defining "interstate commerce" to include absolutely anything, by which they rob the states of their delineated powers...

man, that ship sailed down those navigable waters, across every state and out to sea, long, long ago (I believe it was on its way to enforce an executive "policing" action, a war not declared by Congress). If "treason" could be defined as subverting the structure of government set forth by the constitution, then the whole government is treasonous.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

You seem to have ignored the fact that the Democrat party did virtually everything you are accusing Trump of for four years trying to have Trump thrown out of office. Where was their "maturity,""wisdom,""common sense," and "'class' to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done?"
As I said it depends on whose ox got gored. The Democrats spent 4 years, 100s of hour of useless investigation and millions of dollars trying to throw Trump out of office. Where was all this unity then?

Nailed it. To a "T".

 

[Michael]

You seem to have ignored the fact that the Democrat party did virtually everything you are accusing Trump of for four years trying to have Trump thrown out of office.

Aside from your blatantly one sided view of the last four years, this kind of political attack nonsense has being going on for a long time including a Republican lead 'Whitewater" real estate land deal investigation that politically morphed itself into a Republican witch hunt requiring them to analyze fluids found on dress. Please! The Republican's have pulled their own share of political stunts, including impeachment. Trump was the one caught calling for political favors from foreign governments in exchange for military and financial aid.

This issue is different however in one very important respect. Even with all that political bickering in DC, in each and every case, the transfer of power has always been done peacefully and willingly, with respect for the constitution and the actual "will of the people"

The "will of the people" has spoken and the fat lady has sung, all the way through the court system.

If and when however *one* political party can overturn the state certified, justice department certified, court certified results, then we aren't a Republic anymore, we're a full fledged *banana* republic.

Where was their "maturity,""wisdom,""common sense," and "'class' to simply extend their welcome to the next President and be done?"

I don't know where Trumps common sense was when pressuring foreign governments for personal political favors. Where was the Republican sense of "class" and common sense during the Whitewater nonsense?

When is it time to put all that political nonsense aside for the good of the country?

The *peaceful* transfer of power is a *foundation* of our Republic. Without it, we *are* a banana republic. Trump and his followers have already shown a propensity for violence, and Trump himself called for the use of violence.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/donald-trumps-incitements-to-violence-
have-crossed-an-alarming-threshold

As I said it depends on whose ox got gored. The Democrats spent 4 years, 100s of hour of useless investigation and millions of dollars trying to throw Trump out of office. Where was all this unity then?

There's really no point in discussing every political grievance under the sun. The question is will the Republic party devolve itself into a banana Republic party by trying to override the will of the American people, our constitution and our state's sovereign rights to hold free and fair elections as they see fit?

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Whether it be the Supreme Court inventing imaginary constitutional amendments to use to strike down valid legislation,

or whether it be the EPA broadly defining "navigable waters" to include every puddle, with which to bludgeon people with environmental laws,

or whether it be Congress broadly defining "interstate commerce" to include absolutely anything, by which they rob the states of their delineated powers...

man, that ship sailed down those navigable waters, across every state and out to sea, long, long ago (I believe it was on its way to enforce an executive "policing" action, a war not declared by Congress). If "treason" could be defined as subverting the structure of government set forth by the constitution, then the whole government is treasonous.

Truth. We are so far off course at this point, it's comical to speak of "norms".

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

There's really no point in discussing every political grievance under the sun.

No, but their comments offered counterpoise to your very skewed take on things.

 

[lismore]

When does it become "treason"?

If they lose. To the winners go the spoils.

 

[Michael]

When it comes to prosecuting someone for treason, the United States uses the definition of the constitution, not that of a dictionary. And the Constitution gives a very specific and narrow definition of treason:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Is this levying war? No. At most, they've tried to abuse the laws or rules and made a bunch of false statements. This is not levying war. Your specific citation is them objecting to the counting of the electoral votes. That is not treason; that is a perfectly allowable thing to do under the Electoral Count Act. Is it a wise thing to do? A moral thing to do? Maybe not. I now have my concerns about what will happen in a future presidential election where the House and Senate are both controlled by the opposite party of the winner. But the point is, not only is it not actual war, it's also allowed. It's not treason.

Well, whatever it is, (level of physical violence on January 6th yet to be determined), it's anything *but* democratic, and certainly a political precedent that no party should set. As you mention, the possibility of abuse by any party is a dangerous precedent to set.

I do wish to also respond to the claim that "The presenting of the electoral college results to Congress has always been a mere formality, particularly when the results are so heavily skewed in one candidate's favor." (emphasis added) This is inaccurate. It is true that it is almost always a mere formality, not always. The results of the 1876 election were very much in dispute almost up until the day congress formally counted the vote. This resulted in the Compromise of 1877 where they reached an informal agreement in which the votes went to Rutherford Hayes in exchange for the end of Reconstruction. I suppose someone can say that by the time they counted the votes it was a formality, but that's really splitting hairs in my view.

After reading up a bit, I'll concede that there have been electoral college abuses in the past, but in this case all the states have already long since certified their results and the courts and justice system have already scrutinized the arguments of wide spread voter fraud and flatly rejected those claims.

I'm not sure it's an applicable example in the sense that states today tally their results much faster and more efficiently than they did in 1877, and with a whole series of rules and accounting methods related to automatic recounts, etc. The final results are *well* known today.

It is yet *another* example of a 'Republican' who lost the popular vote and *winning* the electoral college. In that sense, it's about the same desire.

Having established it is not levying war, is it "adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort"? This is even more clearly a no. (for the record, "enemies" means actual official enemies--that is, those the country has formally declared war on)

So there is no treason here. Period. Someone can certainly criticize their objecting to the count, but to claim it is treason is not a valid objection.

I guess without knowing if the so called "protests" in DC next week will be peaceful or not yet, I can't really say that it's reached the state of 'treason' yet, but the fact I can't rule treason out yet is bone chilling IMO.

 

[Guinan]

There's really no point in discussing every political grievance under the sun. The question is will the Republic party devolve itself into a banana Republic party by trying to override the will of the American people, our constitution and our state's sovereign rights to hold free and fair elections as they see fit?

Please remember that there are Republicans, such as myself, who don't support Trump and we openly oppose him. I've been against him and have spoken out against him for five years now. If it were up to me, every Republican politician who bowed down to him would be voted out and shown the door. I wouldn't have a problem with these Yes-man Republicans being voted out of office. I think they should all go down with the sinking ship, along with Trump. I don't have any sympathy for them whatsoever.

 

[Basil the Great]

A friend of mine today used the word sedition, rather than treason, to describe such conduct as we see here.

 

[atpollard]

It's just sad to see how much damage this single man has done to every single institution in our country, *including* to the very fabric of the nation itself, our unity as a nation.

What unity?
This is no different than the “dimpled chads” lawsuit of Al Gore or the impeachment of Clinton for perjury or the support/demonization of Obama and the Bushs. Party politics in a polarized nation has been the “new normal” for decades. It just happens to be a Republican that “lost” and a Democrat that “won” this time.

 

[Petros2015]

From my point of view, it was treason around April 17th.