Only two covenants are presented in the New Testament

[Nova2216]

We can sin, yes. But can we be condemned? No, not if we are under the law of Christ. As I understand it, unbelievers are still under law and also under condemnation. Otherwise we would have universalism.

Notice Simon in (Acts 8:13-24). He was saved as those in (Acts 8:5,12), but then he fell from grace according to an inspired man (Acts 8:20-24). Note also (Gal. 5:4).

Notice also (2Tim. 2:17,18).

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Notice (Luke 15)

Notice (2Peter 2:20-22)

Notice (Luke 8:5-15)

 

[mkgal1]

As I've posted often - we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if the promised remnant hadn't placed their hopes and faith in Jesus as their Messiah. No where is it promised that the Israelites "en masse" would accept Him or else there wouldn't be all the prophecies of the judgement that was to come upon the first century apostate Israelites.

Did Israel en masse say "we do" to the terms of the Mt Sinai covenant there that day when it was presented to them? The answer is "yes".

All Israel shall be saved... the Jews en masse will believe on Jesus during the great tribulation.

The way "all Israel" was saved was through the cutting off of the unfaithful "branches". There was allowance made for them to be grafted back in prior to the Day of the Lord that had also been prophesied of.

The ancient Israelites had said "yes" to the conditions of the Mosaic Covenant....which included this part:

Deuteronomy 18:19
I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf.
​

.......Luke made this more clear:

Acts 3:23
Everyone who does not heed His words will be completely cut off from among His people.'

​

 

[Gregory Thompson]

....and some posters on this forum have posited that the New Covenant (as known as the everlasting covenant or covenant of grace) is NOT fulfilled. That would mean the Old Covenant....aka, the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant made on Mt Sinai has not ended.

This is a false statement.

Fulfillment of the law is not a phrase used in juxtaposition with the end of the old covenant.

Jesus was fulfilling the law while He was alive, it was a means of observing the law on a higher level.

It is even written - Jesus said, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Thus illustrating, the law becoming obsolete by an newer and better covenant, is not related to fulfillment.

 

[keras]

If we are not under law today there can be no sin b/c sin is transgression of Gods law. (1Jn 3:4).

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The Law and a Covenant, are two different things. Do you need me to define them?

Do you believe one can sin today?

Rather obvious, isn't it?

 

[Timtofly]

This is where I think this topic gets difficult. The old covenant is more than just the ten commandments. The entire old covenant religious system was based on a temple on earth....rituals performed by human priests...and was following a timeline laid out in Daniel 9.

The Law of Moses was based on a tabernacle or movable tent, not a temple. It was not the only Covenant in the OT.

 

[Guojing]

As I've posted often - we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if the promised remnant hadn't placed their hopes and faith in Jesus as their Messiah. No where is it promised that the Israelites "en masse" would accept Him or else there wouldn't be all the prophecies of the judgement that was to come upon the first century apostate Israelites.

We gentiles were saved thru the fall of Israel (romans 11:11), not thru the Believing remnant

 

[BABerean2]

We gentiles were saved thru the fall of Israel (romans 11:11), not thru the Believing remnant

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in Romans 11.

.

 

[Guojing]

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in Romans 11.

.

Never said there was

 

[mkgal1]

It is even written - Jesus said, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Thus illustrating, the law becoming obsolete by an newer and better covenant, is not related to fulfillment.

What? Can you rephrase that or elaborate? I see the opposite of your conclusion, going by this statement.

 

[mkgal1]

We gentiles were saved thru the fall of Israel (romans 11:11), not thru the Believing remnant

Actually.....all are saved through Christ (Jews and Gentiles alike).

Acts 10:34-36; 44-45; 46-47
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”​

Romans 11:1, 5,16-18
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew.
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.​

 

[Guojing]

Actually.....all are saved through Christ (Jews and Gentiles alike).

Acts 10:34-36; 44-45; 46-47
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”​

Romans 11:1, 5,16-18
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew.
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches.
​

Of course we are all saved thru Christ.

But I am quoting Romans 11:11 for you to show that your point "we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if the promised remnant hadn't placed their hopes and faith in Jesus as their Messiah" is incorrect

 

[mkgal1]

Of course we are all saved thru Christ.

But I am quoting Romans 11:11 for you to show that your point "we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if the promised remnant hadn't placed their hopes and faith in Jesus as their Messiah" is incorrect

That's not true. Take notice of how that chapter begins.

Romans 11:1
I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.​

And who was Mary, the mother that gave birth to Jesus? She was an Israelite. Who were Peter and all the other disciples? Israelites. Who were the 3,000 new believers at Pentecost recorded in Acts 2? Israelites from every nation (v. 5)....from the House of Judah and House of Israel.

 

[Guojing]

That's not true. Take notice of how that chapter begins.

Romans 11:1
I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.​

And who was Mary, the mother that gave birth to Jesus? She was an Israelite. Who were Peter and all the other disciples? Israelites. Who were the 3,000 new believers at Pentecost recorded in Acts 2? Israelites from every nation (v. 5)....from the House of Judah and House of Israel.

Why don't you quote verse 11 and we examine the cause and effect relationship stated in that verse?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Everything in it's season. The Jews, Israel, haven't yet received Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

All of the Jews/Israelites who have received Jesus and the gospel of salvation in the past 2,000 years would be very confused by this statement. There is no such thing as the corporate salvation you believe in. It's simply not taught anywhere in scripture. God is not a respecter of persons. He wants all people from all nations to be saved and that has always been the case. All Jews have been offered salvation for the past 2,000 years.

 

[BABerean2]

Never said there was

Then you are not a Dispensationalist.

One of the chief claims of the doctrine is that during a future time modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.(1)

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? (2) for as soon as Zion travailed (3), she brought forth her children.

(1) Before the great tribulation begins, 2000 years ago to Israel, Jesus was borne.

(2) Israel became a nation again in one day in 1948.

(3) As soon as Israel enters the great tribulation, the Jews en masse with become believers in Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

Why would that happen? Does God desire for the Jews to be saved en masse, but not people of other nations?

Can you please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What is your understanding of the identity of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part?

What do you think Paul meant when he said those who are children of the flesh (natural descendants) are not the children of God (just because of being natural descendants), but rather "the children of the promise are counted for the seed"?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We gentiles were saved thru the fall of Israel (romans 11:11), not thru the Believing remnant

The ones who didn't believe did not fall, they stumbled.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

In Romans 11:11, Paul indicated that the ones who stumbled in his day did not fall beyond recovery. He proved that in verses 13 and 14 by saying he was leading Gentiles to salvation in the hope of making his fellow Israelites envious so that he could help "save some of them". So, in the case of the Israelites in Paul's day that people like yourself think were fallen the rest of their lives, Paul was hoping at least "some of them" would be saved.

 

[mkgal1]

Why don't you quote verse 11 and we examine the cause and effect relationship stated in that verse?

Why don't "we" look at the bigger picture and not just one verse?

It's completely false to say that it's incorrect that we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if it weren't for the faithful remnant. I realize that's a double negative....so. to be more clear, I'll repeat in the affirmative....we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if it weren't for the faithful remnant.

 

[mkgal1]

Everything in it's season. The Jews, Israel, haven't yet received Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

If a person totally disregards who Mary, the disciples, Saul/Paul, and the believers at Pentecost were and exchanged them and their faithfulness for an entirely different "Israel"....then that's believed. That's how other gospels are created.

But I completely agree with you that it's important to note that everything has its season. In the Bible....the main season pointed to is, "until Christ came". The Israelites were God's chosen.....until Christ came (as it was through them, He was born to fulfill prophecy). Christ and His Church then superceded the Israelites (but included the faithful remnant).

 

[mkgal1]

Why don't you quote verse 11 and we examine the cause and effect relationship stated in that verse?

From verse 11:

Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles
​

......that is referring to Jesus's Crucifixion ("their transgression"). But Paul states, as Spiritual Jew pointed out, that wasn't a permanent fall (as Paul wrote)...but a "stumble". Jesus forgave ALL sin....including His own murder/deicide. That was the Good News that Peter and the disciples were spreading.

Acts 2:36-39
Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
37When the people [Israelites in Jerusalem in 30 AD] heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”​