Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[bbbbbbb]

Do you think there are some sins that are evil, and as such they would never be forgiven and those who committed them would not be saved in Christ, with needed repentance not possible, or irrelevant?

Certainly.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you think there are some sins that are evil, and as such they would never be forgiven and those who committed them would not be saved in Christ, with needed repentance not possible, or irrelevant?

All sins are evil. All sin (singular) is evil. I suppose you mean to ask if there are some sins that are SO evil that they would never be forgiven.

I'm not sure how this question applies to the OP, but anyhow, I will try to give my take on the matter: I don't think there is any depth of depravity from which God cannot redeem a person. I KNOW there is no depth of depravity from which God cannot redeem one of those he chose. If a person thinks he/she has gone that far down, that God can't/won't redeem them, they have no concept just how bad they have been --it is much worse than they think-- and they have no idea of the power and grace of God.

 

[FredVB]

Do you think there are some sins that are evil, and as such they would never be forgiven and those who committed them would not be saved in Christ, with needed repentance not possible, or irrelevant?

Certainly.

All sins are evil. All sin (singular) is evil. I suppose you mean to ask if there are some sins that are SO evil that they would never be forgiven.

I'm not sure how this question applies to the OP, but anyhow, I will try to give my take on the matter: I don't think there is any depth of depravity from which God cannot redeem a person. I KNOW there is no depth of depravity from which God cannot redeem one of those he chose. If a person thinks he/she has gone that far down, that God can't/won't redeem them, they have no concept just how bad they have been --it is much worse than they think-- and they have no idea of the power and grace of God.

I think in much the same way about these things. I was not responding to the OP, but to the poster posting just above where I posted, who does not think the same way, so it is that I was asking that, for him.

There is a distinction.

Sin is disobedience to God order.

Evil is the reasoning as the means to continue justifying the disobedience.

One is a negative impulse = sin.

One is by false reasoning to enhance and justify the negative impulse = evil.

Homosexual expression is a sin.

Glorifying homosexuality is evil.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think in much the same way about these things. I was not responding to the OP, but to the poster posting just above where I posted, who does not think the same way, so it is that I was asking that, for him.

Just a suggestion here. When I respond to a particular poster I hit the "reply" prompt at the lower right-hand corner of his post. Then, his post shows up at the top of my new post, as you see above.

 

[FredVB]

Just a suggestion here. When I respond to a particular poster I hit the "reply" prompt at the lower right-hand corner of his post. Then, his post shows up at the top of my new post, as you see above.

Thanks for the suggestion. I do know about hitting reply to get the quote. I neglected to use that this time, as it happens there is the post of the poster I was responding to shown right above my post, but that post required that I just read all that off-site material, and I was not wanting to imply that I had gone to read it all, but just to question the poster on his overall position on this distinction between sin and evil being referred to.

Rebellion against Yahweh God is an evil. Sin is rebellion against God, actually. And it is needed that sin is to stop. As such, sin is evil. Verses I listed support that. Those are not dealt with by referring to off-site materials to read instead of just answering why the verses I listed supporting sin is evil do not apply for that, because "that would take too long". So I am supposed to invest my own time to prove to myself my contrary position is wrong. You may see that this is not a satisfactory approach to be answered with, but my question is still a legitimate one to ask back.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks for the suggestion. I do know about hitting reply to get the quote. I neglected to use that this time, as it happens there is the post of the poster I was responding to shown right above my post, but that post required that I just read all that off-site material, and I was not wanting to imply that I had gone to read it all, but just to question the poster on his overall position on this distinction between sin and evil being referred to.

Rebellion against Yahweh God is an evil. Sin is rebellion against God, actually. And it is needed that sin is to stop. As such, sin is evil. Verses I listed support that. Those are not dealt with by referring to off-site materials to read instead of just answering why the verses I listed supporting sin is evil do not apply for that, because "that would take too long". So I am supposed to invest my own time to prove to myself my contrary position is wrong. You may see that this is not a satisfactory approach to be answered with, but my question is still a legitimate one to ask back.

I agree entirely with you and have often found myself in similar situations. Sometimes, however, I will provide a pertinent reference usually to a neutral source such as Wikipedia to define matters, but I limit my off-site references to only one citation at a time and a brief one, at that.

 

[FredVB]

I agree entirely with you and have often found myself in similar situations. Sometimes, however, I will provide a pertinent reference usually to a neutral source such as Wikipedia to define matters, but I limit my off-site references to only one citation at a time and a brief one, at that.

It is a different matter with showing a link to for information showing support for a point being made, that is with the point being made in the post. That can be like a footnote or endnote in a written text. It is not the same with a poster telling another to go find the point in response where there is a link to off-site material for that, and nothing for answering in response in the post. That is overly lazy in any dialogue, disrespecting any other engaged in that, and not really worthy of attention. Even response to just one verse in a post could have been attempted, to start with, it does not look like that can be done when that is not shown.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is a different matter with showing a link to for information showing support for a point being made, that is with the point being made in the post. That can be like a footnote or endnote in a written text. It is not the same with a poster telling another to go find the point in response where there is a link to off-site material for that, and nothing for answering in response in the post. That is overly lazy in any dialogue, disrespecting any other engaged in that, and not really worthy of attention. Even response to just one verse in a post could have been attempted, to start with, it does not look like that can be done when that is not shown.

I agree entirely and have been equally frustrated in such situations.

 

[FredVB]

It appears you have never been given teaching in detail and have been allowed to presume what you wish. That's OK. Until the truth is presented.

You will not find one passage where it says Jesus died for evil. He can't. For He can not reject Himself!

He was the Word made flesh. To reject the Truth is not simply sin. Though its motivational impulse may have originated from the sin nature. To persist in rejection of Truth is now termed "evil." Deny Christ. Jesus said I AM the Truth! Not that He simply knows Truth.

If we deny Him? He will deny us (of our eternal rewards).

When we sin? Sin simply requires confession by admitting to God you sinned.1 John 1:9
On the other hand...
Evil requires refutation by the Word of God, presented to show the denial and the answer that is correct.
After the refutation is given? Then the one living in evil must "repent." Change his thinking. Repent means "to change one's mind." That's how the Greek speaking world used the word.

My pastor once brilliantly stated to a hushed room...

"Dumb can not get it."

"Stupid will not get it."

Even the Bible tells us the difference....

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Prov 12:1

Pretty blunt. The Holy Spirit will be blunt when its called for. Man does not like that because man is what he is. He wants to remain as a pampered little child. God demands that we grow up to become mature adults.

Add to that... The word translated "correction"could be more accurately rendered "reproof."

Reproof is not only a correction. But the Spirit is letting the stubborn one know how displeasing he is to God at the same time.

Some get offended because they fail to realize how God works in disciplining and rearing of His children. Babies get the nursery. Unconditional love. But, after that. God wants His own to become strong and adults in their thinking.

There is a distinction.

Sin is disobedience to God order.

Evil is the reasoning as the means to continue justifying the disobedience.

One is a negative impulse = sin.

One is by false reasoning to enhance and justify the negative impulse = evil.

Homosexual expression is a sin.

Glorifying homosexuality is evil.

If you really want to learn in detail what those passages teach? Really must want to study. Here is a great place to find answers... R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

And, here is a lifetime of information offered free of charge.

https://rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Otherwise? To try to answer here? Would be impossible.

Any who do not come to repentance, to turn from sin in their life to Yahweh God, through Christ, with faith, will perish, suffering the consequences after their judgment from then on. It does not matter how wicked before repentance, with the repentance coming from sin to God through Christ with faith, they would be redeemed, and have changed lives, to come to eternal bliss hereafter with God. God's power for this is much greater than power of sin and any evil, and so great is God's grace, so that we in Christ keep changing in needed ways, and sin is not to continue before God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Any who do not come to repentance, to turn from sin in their life to Yahweh God, through Christ, with faith, will perish, suffering the consequences after their judgment from then on. It does not matter how wicked before repentance, with the repentance coming from sin to God through Christ with faith, they would be redeemed, and have changed lives, to come to eternal bliss hereafter with God. God's power for this is much greater than power of sin and any evil, and so great is God's grace, so that we in Christ keep changing in needed ways, and sin is not to continue before God.

Very true. I notice that genez seems to be a follower of Robert Bunger Thieme who established his own cult following known as Berachah Bible Churches. He was an outspoken antinomian, among other things.

 

[GenemZ]

Do you think there are some sins that are evil, and as such they would never be forgiven and those who committed them would not be saved in Christ, with needed repentance not possible, or irrelevant?

Many of those passages you gave were differentiating between 'sins and an evil.' Also, unless you know what Hebrew words were being translated 'evil' you can not really get an honest view of what was being said. That is why I gave you the link so you can see the Hebrew words exegeted and really begin to grasp what the intention stated was. Its unfair to use English translations for what to the ancients held different meanings. That is why I told you it would take 300 hours to explain... And, only if you were willing to learn truths you have not been shown before. Its not easy. Its fighting the good fight. Too many who only resort to English translations and simple word studies can not get below the surface.

God has answers that not all are willing to dig for.

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.
When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy
went and sold all he had and bought that field." Mat 13:44​

When you find such a treasure you will need to give up all you have (sell it), and go get what it is of great value. Something that what you now have, can not compare.

Simple, superficial, churchianity is killing this country today. For, mainstream thinking can never be a threat to an enemy. Predictability, means one is not growing. And, can be trapped.

God wants believers to seek for what is hidden in Him. Hidden. Not the obvious and on the surface.



I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name." Isa 45:3



My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." Col 2:2-4

If the United States falls into the hands of foreign communism's full influence... the simple minded thinking of too many Christians today will not allow them to command God's blessing of deliverance.


My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
“Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children." Hos 4:6


Right now God is weighing the balance of how many believers out of all the many who have believed in Christ, are actually living beyond the superficial world of churchianity.

We are in trouble...

 

[GenemZ]

Any who do not come to repentance, to turn from sin in their life to Yahweh God, through Christ, with faith, will perish, suffering the consequences after their judgment from then on. It does not matter how wicked before repentance, with the repentance coming from sin to God through Christ with faith, they would be redeemed, and have changed lives, to come to eternal bliss hereafter with God. God's power for this is much greater than power of sin and any evil, and so great is God's grace, so that we in Christ keep changing in needed ways, and sin is not to continue before God.

Do you know what you just said? What does "repentance" mean?

And, why were not all who were given the Gospel were told to repent?
Some were just told to believe and be saved.

Repentance indicates there was a problem in their thinking, and up to then, they have been rejecting Jesus as the Messiah for wrong reasons they had been clinging to.

Repentance deals with someone needing to stop thinking wrongly about a matter.
Sin requires only recognizing the sin and confessing it to God, not repentance. (1 John 1:9)

Now if someone has listened to many lies, and wishes to keep justifying his sinning? Then he needs to change his way of thinking towards that sin. But, to see its a sin? That only requires naming that sin to God. (1 John 1:9) Not repentance.

Many Jews were resisting Jesus because of religion and the lies they had been fed about Him. "Fake news." They needed to repent of their wrong thinking towards Christ, and then to believe. In contrast The gentiles who had no religious preconceived ideas? They were simply told to believe. No mention of needing to repent.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Many of those passages you gave were differentiating between 'sins and an evil.' Also, unless you know what Hebrew words were being translated 'evil' you can not really get an honest view of what was being said. That is why I gave you the link so you can see the Hebrew words exegeted and really begin to grasp what the intention stated was. Its unfair to use English translations for what to the ancients held different meanings. That is why I told you it would take 300 hours to explain... And, only if you were willing to learn truths you have not been shown before. Its not easy. Its fighting the good fight. Too many who only resort to English translations and simple word studies can not get below the surface.

God has answers that not all are willing to dig for.

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.
When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy
went and sold all he had and bought that field." Mat 13:44​

When you find such a treasure you will need to give up all you have (sell it), and go get what it is of great value. Something that what you now have, can not compare.

Simple, superficial, churchianity is killing this country today. For, mainstream thinking can never be a threat to an enemy. Predictability, means one is not growing. And, can be trapped.

God wants believers to seek for what is hidden in Him. Hidden. Not the obvious and on the surface.



I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name." Isa 45:3



My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." Col 2:2-4

If the United States falls into the hands of foreign communism's full influence... the simple minded thinking of too many Christians today will not allow them to command God's blessing of deliverance.


My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
“Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children." Hos 4:6


Right now God is weighing the balance of how many believers out of all the many who have believed in Christ, are actually living beyond the superficial world of churchianity.

We are in trouble...

Well said, Brother.

"Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."

The demise of the 'apparent' church, and the freedom of religious expression --to wit, the spread of the Gospel-- will come sooner than we wish, but woe to the religious who speed its demise.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[GenemZ]

Well said, Brother.

"Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."

The demise of the 'apparent' church, and the freedom of religious expression --to wit, the spread of the Gospel-- will come sooner than we wish, but woe to the religious who speed its demise.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

To quote President Trump's favorite verse...

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is,

there is freedom." 2 Cor 3:17​

Too many Christians walk according to the preference of their religious flesh, and not by the Spirit.

That is why our freedoms have been in the ongoing process of being taken away more and more over time. Its a hard thing to reverse. Because to do so? They will need to be rebuked and told they have been absolutely stupid.

In the present tyrannical culture of political correctness? And, of the social rules set in stone by human good Christians? It becomes near impossible to present corrective truths without getting censored.


I used the word "stupid" because that is what God calls them.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid."

Proverbs 12:1​

If it were not for that "stupid" factor being too prevalent in to many churches we would not be seeing today "evolution" touted with the authority that it now holds in the secular world. Also, the abortion issue would not be the militant confrontation as it has become today... and, homosexuals would find themselves as being seen as insignificant by Christians having the needed insight to no longer feel threatened.

Perpetual Sunday school level Christians can not fight the good fight. For God will not grant His protective power to bless them when what Christians hold to is not an accurate understanding of God's Word. Not being sound doctrine.

God honors His Word. If a Christian can think accurately with God's Word ... and having enough Christians who also have an abundance of sound doctrine in their spirit and hearts? God would turn around the United States, and freak out all those who right now think they have is captured and caged in.

The Lord told Abraham that if only ten righteous were found in Sodom he would have spared it. Therefore, it does not require a huge number of Christians to stabilize the boat. It only takes "enough" living by sound doctrine for God to move and turn the curse into a blessing.

And, that's where we stand right now. God is telling us... Enough stupidity. Your zeal without sound understanding and knowledge, is going to destroy you unless you repent!"

We are at a precipice.... I just hope the Lord is able to find in the United States a "ten righteous" factor amongst all the Christians who have been following their very own preferred way of thinking.

2 Tim 4:3 tells us why we are having such a mess coming to a head with this election.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather
around them a great number of teachers to say what their
itching ears want to hear."​

​

Very few churches today have the spiritual fortitude to demand that their pastor study diligently, and to tell them what they need to learn, instead of what they want to hear.

Too many pastors will cater to "their audience" as to make sure their income is secure. Sad to say. I know one pastor who graduated high from Dallas Theological Seminary back in the late 50's/early sixties... He was offered a huge salary if he would teach what they told him, what they wanted to hear. He turned it down and started an independent church, depending solely upon the Lord for his needs. He told me what he saw was common enough... He also turned out to be an excellent teacher. He taught from the original languages and offered historical insights into the times and customs of the time when Scriptures were written... I was honored to be able to correspond with him for a few years when I first discovered that their are a few pastors who remain true and faithful to their real calling...

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather
around them a great number of teachers to say what their
itching ears want to hear."

​

grace and peace.......

 

[FredVB]

Many of those passages you gave were differentiating between 'sins and an evil.'

Okay, I see that is an interpretation.

Also, unless you know what Hebrew words were being translated 'evil' you can not really get an honest view of what was being said. That is why I gave you the link so you can see the Hebrew words exegeted and really begin to grasp what the intention stated was. Its unfair to use English translations for what to the ancients held different meanings. That is why I told you it would take 300 hours to explain... And, only if you were willing to learn truths you have not been shown before. Its not easy. Its fighting the good fight. Too many who only resort to English translations and simple word studies can not get below the surface.

God has answers that not all are willing to dig for.

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.
When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy
went and sold all he had and bought that field." Mat 13:44​

When you find such a treasure you will need to give up all you have (sell it), and go get what it is of great value. Something that what you now have, can not compare.

Simple, superficial, churchianity is killing this country today. For, mainstream thinking can never be a threat to an enemy. Predictability, means one is not growing. And, can be trapped.

God wants believers to seek for what is hidden in Him. Hidden. Not the obvious and on the surface.

I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name." Isa 45:3

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in
whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." Col 2:2-4

If the United States falls into the hands of foreign communism's full influence... the simple minded thinking of too many Christians today will not allow them to command God's blessing of deliverance.

My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
“Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children." Hos 4:6

Right now God is weighing the balance of how many believers out of all the many who have believed in Christ, are actually living beyond the superficial world of churchianity.

We are in trouble...

"I know what you can't grasp." That is what that amounts to.

We (those in this current society) are in trouble, certainly, more than is imagined. We don't have to stay with it, and we really shouldn't.

And to live beyond the superficial repentance is needed.

Any who do not come to repentance, to turn from sin in their life to Yahweh God, through Christ, with faith, will perish, suffering the consequences after their judgment from then on. It does not matter how wicked before repentance, with the repentance coming from sin to God through Christ with faith, they would be redeemed, and have changed lives, to come to eternal bliss hereafter with God. God's power for this is much greater than power of sin and any evil, and so great is God's grace, so that we in Christ keep changing in needed ways, and sin is not to continue before God.

Do you know what you just said? What does "repentance" mean?

And, why were not all who were given the Gospel were told to repent?
Some were just told to believe and be saved.

Repentance indicates there was a problem in their thinking, and up to then, they have been rejecting Jesus as the Messiah for wrong reasons they had been clinging to.

Repentance deals with someone needing to stop thinking wrongly about a matter.
Sin requires only recognizing the sin and confessing it to God, not repentance. (1 John 1:9)

Now if someone has listened to many lies, and wishes to keep justifying his sinning? Then he needs to change his way of thinking towards that sin. But, to see its a sin? That only requires naming that sin to God. (1 John 1:9) Not repentance.

Many Jews were resisting Jesus because of religion and the lies they had been fed about Him. "Fake news." They needed to repent of their wrong thinking towards Christ, and then to believe. In contrast The gentiles who had no religious preconceived ideas? They were simply told to believe. No mention of needing to repent.

Of course I know what I was saying. Why do you or others conclude what I say about repentance excludes anything about repentance? Repentance is not excluded from faith. You are indeed a follower of Robert Thieme, as was mentioned probably being the case to me, then. Jesus taught of repentance being called for, believing in faith then includes this repentance. I can trust that. And sin is not to just continue without repentance, that is wrong.

 

[FredVB]

The demise of the 'apparent' church, and the freedom of religious expression --to wit, the spread of the Gospel-- will come sooner than we wish, but woe to the religious who speed its demise.

There is the apparent church that does not perfectly correspond to all of those who are real believers which are in Christ. The real demise threatened in prophetic passages of scriptures is to all of those involved in exploitation with destructiveness to the earth (Revelation 11:18, Revelation 18), which Mystery Babylon is. Believers are warned to come out from all of that. Times of trouble are coming, certainly, with ultimate demise of that.

 

[GenemZ]

Of course I know what I was saying. Why do you or others conclude what I say about repentance excludes anything about repentance? Repentance is not excluded from faith. You are indeed a follower of Robert Thieme, as was mentioned probably being the case to me, then. Jesus taught of repentance being called for, believing in faith then includes this repentance. I can trust that. And sin is not to just continue without repentance, that is wrong.

Many who were Jews were told to "repent" and believe. "Change your thinking about Jesus Christ! Then believe!"

But, many Gentiles who did not think like Jews who thought error in thinking they already knew God as God should be known (as many Jews were doing) ....

In many cases Gentiles were not told to repent, but were simply told to "believe." For they had no need for a change in thinking that was resisting Jesus Christ to believe.

Also.. Repentance can be about sin. Especially when its become some sort of self glorified lifestyle. But, repentance does not have to be about sin.

Believing in Christ is looking upon Jesus, and finding oneself simply believing. "Believe and you shall be saved!"

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and
your household.”

Act 16:30-31


When someone has lies about Jesus harbored in their hearts (as many Jews who followed the teachings of the Pharisees of doing religious works for salvation) these Jews needed to first have a change in mind (repentance) concerning who Jesus really is.

The need for repentance can also pertain to cults who have a distorted representation of who and what Jesus is. These ones will need to change their thinking (repentance) before they can believe.

 

[TedT]

Not only does it make debate a lot less frustrating, but if terms can be defined before the argument begins, I've noticed, the debate doesn't usually continue as long.

Free Will, as usually addressed in old Reformed circles, had to do with the bondage of the will of the unregenerate --not what usually gets fought over nowadays: the ability of persons to make undirected spontaneous decisions.

The bondage of the will to evil doesn't mean they cannot make decisions but that their decisions will always be tainted by, to the purpose of, evil.

Therefore the ability to make decisions is NOT the definition of a free will.

In GOD's creation in which HE cannot create any evil or force it upon anyone, the only sure sign anyone has a free will is the ability to rebel against HIM, the ability to choose evil and thereby become an evil person perpetuating evil with every choice.

Righteous moral holiness must obviously be chosen by a free will or it is as meaningless as claiming a dvd song of worship is true worship but acting morally does not have the same proof value that we are following GOD by our free will and not by the coercion of fear, selfishness, or mental manipulation from GOD like a Stepford wife.

The jibes of the atheist that our worship must be caused by a Borg like bondage to HIS will cannot be refuted by logic but only in ourselves as we are trained in righteousness, choosing to melt further and further into total accord with HIS goodness.

 

[TedT]

All FREE means is our decisions are uncoerced:

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: [URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness"]ingenuousness[/url] as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true uncoerced ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

 

[GenemZ]

All FREE means is our decisions are uncoerced:

To be uncoerced would require having omniscience.

The TRUTH will set you free.

In other words... You are not free until you have truth.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word,
you are really my disciples. You will also know the truth, and the truth will
set you free.” Jn 8:31-32​

Getting truth is the hard part..... Yet, all things are possible with God.