LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

[chevyontheriver]

So your prayers are not found in the Bible but mine should be in liturgies of the early Church? Sprinkling is not baptism. Where are the original writings of the Bible? They are not in the British Museum.

Liturgical prayers ought to have pedigrees. What is the pedigree of your ceremony?

Not all prayers are liturgical prayers. The one you cited and the one I did simply are not liturgical. They are private prayers. They do not need a pedigree. Your ceremonies, if they were valid would be like our liturgies and be related to the earliest liturgies of the Christian Church. Since you don't have a liturgical pedigree, we might think rationally that it's like a lot of other Protestant worship that was just made up.

 

[dzheremi]

Since you don't have a liturgical pedigree, we might think rationally that it's like a lot of other Protestant worship that was just made up.

Come on...give the Protestants a little break here. You're right about the more free-form 'low church' types, but Luther's Formula Missae and Deutsche Messe date to 1523 and 1526, respectively. That's not very old compared to the early Roman, Greek, Syriac, Coptic, etc. anaphoras, but in Mormon time that's almost prehistoric! Particularly since they can't seem to come up with any evidence for their 'great apostasy' that predates the 16th century... (which certainly tells you where Mormonism ultimately comes from -- out of Restorationism, which is obviously a Protestant-birthed movement -- but it moved pretty dang far from even the boundaries of Protestantism within JS' own lifetime. If you read the original 1830 edition of the BOM, you could be forgiven with assuming that it is more or less at least theologically informed by middle of the road Protestantism, like perhaps you'd find in the Methodist church that the Smith family was known to attend the revival meetings of prior to JS' sudden prophethood...)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do you believe that those who were born before John the Baptist were baptized? If not what do you believe will happen to them?

People before John the Baptist weren't baptized. We can obviously both agree to this. Like we can both agree that the people before Jesus didn't see the fulfillment of prophecy or the promises of God. They only had hope of it, like the author of Hebrews mentions about Abraham. We both accept that certain people at certain times only had specific knowledge of God.

Where we fundamentally differ is how we believe God operates with his people. With the family he began with Abraham and the Church. Mormons, like other restorationists (Muslims or Bahai for instance) believe the Church went radically wrong somewhere along the way. So wrong that God was forced to vacate.

I look to the bible and the see the people of Israel doing a lot worse than what the Church did and yet God still persevered with them. He rebuked them for their sin as I believe God has rebuked us Christians on many occasions. Yet I do not doubt his continual presence in the midst of believers. The Mormon view of things upends it all and I see a radically different God at work if Mormonism is true. I feel the God of Christendom is more compelling than any God who restores what he couldn't preserve to begin with.

 

[He is the way]

Liturgical prayers ought to have pedigrees. What is the pedigree of your ceremony?

Not all prayers are liturgical prayers. The one you cited and the one I did simply are not liturgical. They are private prayers. They do not need a pedigree. Your ceremonies, if they were valid would be like our liturgies and be related to the earliest liturgies of the Christian Church. Since you don't have a liturgical pedigree, we might think rationally that it's like a lot of other Protestant worship that was just made up.

The prayer was written down by the prophet Moroni, the same Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith and is written about by John in the book of Revelation:

(New Testament | Revelation 14:6)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So even though you may not consider Moroni a prophet of God, I do.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Why not? Except that Jesus used bread and wine. So we do. We do argue about leavened vs unleavened bread sometimes, but there would be zero argument about never accepting Oreos. That's just not possible. Same for doing away with wine. Sure, there is very low alcohol wine called 'must' but that's still wine.

Bread and wine. No substitution allowed.

On a thread several years ago, a different mormon was making the same argument that, if certain elements are not readily available, then substitutions are allowed. Having just dunked a few Oreos in a cold glass of milk, I asked if these were acceptable substitutes. He said yes, as long as the "intent" was there.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if fully submersing my Oreo in milk would be an acceptable substitute for their baptisms for the dead, as long as the "intent" was there...

 

[He is the way]

People before John the Baptist weren't baptized. We can obviously both agree to this. Like we can both agree that the people before Jesus didn't see the fulfillment of prophecy or the promises of God. They only had hope of it, like the author of Hebrews mentions about Abraham. We both accept that certain people at certain times only had specific knowledge of God.

Where we fundamentally differ is how we believe God operates with his people. With the family he began with Abraham and the Church. Mormons, like other restorationists (Muslims or Bahai for instance) believe the Church went radically wrong somewhere along the way. So wrong that God was forced to vacate.

I look to the bible and the see the people of Israel doing a lot worse than what the Church did and yet God still persevered with them. He rebuked them for their sin as I believe God has rebuked us Christians on many occasions. Yet I do not doubt his continual presence in the midst of believers. The Mormon view of things upends it all and I see a radically different God at work if Mormonism is true. I feel the God of Christendom is more compelling than any God who restores what he couldn't preserve to begin with.

We believe that everyone has the light of Christ to know right from wrong and the agency to choose to live according to the dictates of their own conscience. Each of us will be rewarded according to our works whether they be good or evil. There have always been those who follow Jesus Christ and those who are of their father the devil. Those who follow Christ will have eternal life while those who choose the other way will experience spiritual death. This has been so since the beginning. Prophets, apostles, teachers, etc. are here to help us to help us understand the right way and help those in need. The poor will always be among us and they need our help. The priesthood of God is given for the purpose of helping others, not as a status symbol or to be praised of man. If miracles have ceased it is because of the lack of faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus was not able to do much work in His home town due to lack of faith and unbelief:

(New Testament | Mark 6:4 - 6)

4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[He is the way]

On a thread several years ago, a different mormon was making the same argument that, if certain elements are not readily available, then substitutions are allowed. Having just dunked a few Oreos in a cold glass of milk, I asked if these were acceptable substitutes. He said yes, as long as the "intent" was there.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if fully submersing my Oreo in milk would be an acceptable substitute for their baptisms for the dead, as long as the "intent" was there...

Some believe that sprinkling is a valid substitute for immersion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The prayer was written down by the prophet Moroni, the same Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith and is written about by John in the book of Revelation:

(New Testament | Revelation 14:6)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So even though you may not consider Moroni a prophet of God, I do.

I suspect the ceremonial prayers probably have a pedigree somewhere within American Protestantism of the 1800's. I wish I had the tools to search that out, so for now it's just a suspicion.

And as to some invisible person writing things down, we Christians are not accepting of even messages from angels if they do not accord with the faith received through the apostles. The real apostles with real lifespans that is.

 

[chevyontheriver]

On a thread several years ago, a different mormon was making the same argument that, if certain elements are not readily available, then substitutions are allowed. Having just dunked a few Oreos in a cold glass of milk, I asked if these were acceptable substitutes. He said yes, as long as the "intent" was there.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if fully submersing my Oreo in milk would be an acceptable substitute for their baptisms for the dead, as long as the "intent" was there...

Intent IS important. But by itself insufficient. For a valid baptism THREE things are necessary. First is natural water, at least enough to sprinkle, better enough to pour, best enough to submerse. Second is the words, using the Trinitarian and Biblical formula, without fancy deviations. Third is the intent to do as the Church does in baptism, so no pretend or horseplay baptisms are valid, and no Mormon baptisms are valid because they have a whole different deity.

Given those THREE things, anyone can baptize. You can. I can. Your minister can. A Jewish doctor can. Your mother can. A heretic can, provided the heretic intends to do as the Church does in baptism. It's a baptism into Christ, and who does it doesn't matter. The Jewish doctor can do it if he intends, for the sake of the peace of the parents, to baptize a dying newborn as if the Church were doing it. I know that sounds radical, and especially from a Catholic, but that's our understanding. And that's how we can accept the vast majority of Protestant baptisms as valid. Just not Jehovah's witnesses or Mormon baptisms or Oneness Pentecostal baptisms.

As to the 'valid form' of Mormon baptism for the dead, who knows. We don't do that. The NT text is way too vague on such a thing to make a sacrament out of it, let alone the Mormon claim of how they are going to save everybody.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Some believe that sprinkling is a valid substitute for immersion.

What? Some Mormons? Peter1000 seemed to contradict that. Which is it?

 

[dzheremi]

I actually went down a little rabbit hole yesterday looking for Mormon prayer texts, and they seem quite hard to find. No doubt that is at least in part because of the Mormon misconception concerning the Bible's warning against vain repetitions (which is hardly a misconception unique to them), so it seems that most of their prayers are extemporaneous (there's obviously nothing like a Mormon Book of the Hours), though following a kind of generic Protestant-seeming pattern, a la "Father, we just wanna..." (but more formal sounding).

Among my favorites of what I found (presented not to mock, but to educate by showing actual examples of what Mormons may pray):

"Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day, and thank thee for the moisture we have received. Please bless the refreshments, that they will nourish and strengthen our bodies..." (from 7 Prayer Phrases Mormons Could Say in Their Sleep (+What We Should Maybe Be Praying for Instead) | LDS Living)

Dear Father in Heaven,

I come before Thee in grateful prayer tonight, thanking Thee for my life and health, for agency, and for a future. Please accept my gratitude for sending Thy Son. I pray that I will follow His example of kindness, forgiveness, and purity.

Dear Father in Heaven, make me a kinder neighbor, a more diligent student, a more productive employee, and a more loyal citizen. Instill in my heart a greater love for all Thy children, and make me an example of the believers. Forgive my laziness, hypocrisy and offense.

I pray for my dear wife. Preserve her and uplift her. Bless her richly for her faith, her pure heart and her hard work. Make me a more reliable husband. Bless all our children, nieces and nephews, that they might recognize the influence of Thy Spirit, and know Thee. Protect them and guide them in their growth and education. Soften their feelings and give them good judgment, and success and achievement. I pray for our parents and their health and longevity; and my two sisters.

I pray for our national leaders, that they may make their decisions in justice and righteousness, that peace and prosperity may prevail at home and abroad. I pray for civil discourse and a culture of respect. I pray for peace in our homes and families, and for safety in schools and neighborhoods.

Send a special blessing on those who are seeking employment, that they might use their talents and support their families. Please intervene in the Gulf of Mexico to stop the oil spill. Please bless the peoples in war-torn areas like Iraq and Afghanistan, that they might turn from violence and oppression.

I thank Thee for the infinite Atonement of Thy Son, for forgiveness and reconciliation, for His perfect example. I thank Thee for restoring the gospel to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and for our prophet today, President Thomas S. Monson. Please continue to guide and inspire him and his associates. I thank Thee for the Bible and the Book of Mormon, for the Church and its teachings. I pray for those who are seeking the gospel, that they may find the truth. Protect the missionaries throughout the world, and bring them home safely.

(from an individual Mormon's answer to this question on Quora)

---

While there is good stuff to be found at both those links (certainly nobody here would say that it is somehow wrong to pray for safety in the world, or a better marriage, or things like these), there is obviously nothing that rises to the level of time-honored, sanctifying Christian prayer in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the One God.

 

[He is the way]

What? Some Mormons? Peter1000 seemed to contradict that. Which is it?

When I said "some" I did NOT mean members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. We believe in immersion baptism as it was done according to the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 8)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

 

[chevyontheriver]

I actually went down a little rabbit hole yesterday looking for Mormon prayer texts, and they seem quite hard to find. No doubt that is at least in part because of the Mormon misconception concerning the Bible's warning against vain repetitions (which is hardly a misconception unique to them), so it seems that most of their prayers are extemporaneous (there's obviously nothing like a Mormon Book of the Hours), though following a kind of generic Protestant-seeming pattern, a la "Father, we just wanna..." (but more formal sounding).

Among my favorites of what I found (presented not to mock, but to educate by showing actual examples of what Mormons may pray):

"Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day, and thank thee for the moisture we have received. Please bless the refreshments, that they will nourish and strengthen our bodies..." (from 7 Prayer Phrases Mormons Could Say in Their Sleep (+What We Should Maybe Be Praying for Instead) | LDS Living)

Dear Father in Heaven,

I come before Thee in grateful prayer tonight, thanking Thee for my life and health, for agency, and for a future. Please accept my gratitude for sending Thy Son. I pray that I will follow His example of kindness, forgiveness, and purity.

Dear Father in Heaven, make me a kinder neighbor, a more diligent student, a more productive employee, and a more loyal citizen. Instill in my heart a greater love for all Thy children, and make me an example of the believers. Forgive my laziness, hypocrisy and offense.

I pray for my dear wife. Preserve her and uplift her. Bless her richly for her faith, her pure heart and her hard work. Make me a more reliable husband. Bless all our children, nieces and nephews, that they might recognize the influence of Thy Spirit, and know Thee. Protect them and guide them in their growth and education. Soften their feelings and give them good judgment, and success and achievement. I pray for our parents and their health and longevity; and my two sisters.

I pray for our national leaders, that they may make their decisions in justice and righteousness, that peace and prosperity may prevail at home and abroad. I pray for civil discourse and a culture of respect. I pray for peace in our homes and families, and for safety in schools and neighborhoods.

Send a special blessing on those who are seeking employment, that they might use their talents and support their families. Please intervene in the Gulf of Mexico to stop the oil spill. Please bless the peoples in war-torn areas like Iraq and Afghanistan, that they might turn from violence and oppression.

I thank Thee for the infinite Atonement of Thy Son, for forgiveness and reconciliation, for His perfect example. I thank Thee for restoring the gospel to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and for our prophet today, President Thomas S. Monson. Please continue to guide and inspire him and his associates. I thank Thee for the Bible and the Book of Mormon, for the Church and its teachings. I pray for those who are seeking the gospel, that they may find the truth. Protect the missionaries throughout the world, and bring them home safely.

(from an individual Mormon's answer to this question on Quora)

---

While there is good stuff to be found at both those links (certainly nobody here would say that it is somehow wrong to pray for safety in the world, or a better marriage, or things like these), there is obviously nothing that rises to the level of time-honored, sanctifying Christian prayer in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the One God.

Those prayers seem fine. My point was that liturgical prayers follow fixed and approved and tradition tested canons. And that the level of conservation of texts is extreme. The Roman Canon goes back in easily recognizable form all the way to Hippolytus. Sure there has been evolution, but not much. Even the radical changes after Vatican II are not that radical. So it's not far-fetched to expect that the Mormon ceremonial texts should have roots in early Christian liturgies if they are at all valid. Instead, what I think I heard is that their texts came from angels and things. I suspect they are essentially two century old American Protestant derived, but I don't have the tools to explore that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

When I said "some" I did NOT mean members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. We believe in immersion baptism as it was done according to the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 8)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

So what does a Bedouin in the desert do to get baptized? Get on a camel and travel for a week to find a river somewhere? What does a Bedouin in the desert do if she is ill and cannot travel? No baptism for her?

The thing you misunderstand is the difference between a norm and an adaptation. The norm can be immersion, and for the EO that is their norm. But what if you don't have that much water anywhere near you? Here's the Didache, written somewhere near 100 AD on how to baptize:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

By the way, 'living water' means flowing water as in a river. This is the teaching of the Apostles, and codified even before your 'great apostasy' happened. Well, whenever your great apostasy happened.

Where does the New Testament say baptism MUST be by immersion?

 

[Peter1000]

Here's the thing to keep in mind, though: even if Peter1000 is right about patriarchs of the Chalcedonian Church in the heyday of Byzantine Imperial authority (obviously I'll take your word on this), you are still right about Christian participation in the secular world, so he's at best using the one thing he's apparently gotten right (to the limited degree that it is; the "heyday of Byzantine Imperial authority" was presumably an isolated time period, and did not result in Byzantine Imperial control over every Christian church on the planet) to make an ultimately untrue point, due to the overreaching involved in making the claim of total apostasy.

To that end, I'd like to draw the thread in general's attention to what we pray in the Coptic Orthodox Church concerning earthly political leadership, keeping in mind that the period of peace enjoyed for the Copts in Egypt likely did not extend much longer than at most 138 years in the entire history of Christianity in that country (down to today), since the last of the Christian persecutions didn't end until the death of Emperor Maximinus Daia in 313, Chalcedon happened in 451 and had a pretty immediate negative effect on the Coptic people and their Church (notwithstanding the fact that the split was not finalized until about 80 years later), and Byzantine rule passed over to Islamic rule, which, despite allowing our patriarch to return to his throne (showing that it was not just Christian emperors who knew how to meddle in preexisting conflicts), didn't really do anything else that could be considered good for the Church -- things like the forced labor/conscription of Copts (guess who made early Islamic Egypt a naval power? It wasn't the Arabs), the violation of Coptic women (which actually started even before the conquest in the 640s, when the Byzantine governor Muqawqis sent Muhammad a Coptic girl named Maria as a kind of tribute ), and the eventual suppression of Coptic culture and language bearing witness.

And yet still we pray, in the Liturgy of St. Basil (the liturgy for 'ordinary time'), "Remember, O Lord, the king of our land, Your servant, keep him in peace, justice and might." (From the priest's inaudible prayers)

And, "That which exists from one end of the world to the other; All peoples and all flocks do bless; the heavenly peace send down into our hearts even the peace of this life also, graciously grant unto us. The king, the armies, the chiefs, the counselors, the multitudes, our neighbors, our coming in and our going out, adorn them all with peace. O King of peace, grant us Your peace; for You have given us all things." (From the Litany of Peace)

Again, this is to be understood in the context of a Church that had no expectation that the king of the land would favor their Church (or even express any kind of fidelity to or appreciation of Christianity more generally, by a certain point), and yet we still pray it to this day, in Islamic Egypt and Sudan as much as in the United States or elsewhere, because this is part of our faith, too.

So you don't need to even recognize Byzantine Imperial power as a thing to be able to say that your Church (by which I of course mean in this case my particular Church) in some sense 'participates in politics'. It's right there in our prayers, and we're not going to stop saying them just because they haven't actually resulted in a political situation we actually like in the last 1,569 years.

@Peter1000 : That's 1,379 years longer than your religion has even been around, and of course it all started because we resisted the Byzantine Imperial definition of Christianity, and were found to be uncontrollable by the Empire. Would you care to enlighten us all as to how any of this (the prayers; the political situation either under the Chalcedonian Byzantines or the later Muslims, who likewise have not yet made us vanish or accept their definition of true faith, either) fits with your ideas about Christian history?

Maybe it's time that you reevaluate what you take to be the truth about Christianity.

We can discuss this apostasy question for a long time. I believe there was an apostasy that took place. I believe the NT gives plenty of examples of it happening, and it warns of further apostasy, and it uses this specific verbiage, "when I have departed". This was the apostle Paul saying that when he departs, the flock will not be spared. Exactly what we say.

You do not believe it, and I can understand why, although you must admit to apostasy, but maybe not a universal apostasy.

We believe that keys of the priesthood were not passed on as the apostles died, because the world rejected Jesus Christ and killed his apostles, and so Jesus went to his alternative plan for the salvation of the people. And this was not the first time that Jesus had used his alternative plan of salvation, see Noah, see House of Israel.

Your religion is an example of enduring under extreme pressure from the Muslims and I know you to be an outstanding example of Christian living. I believe I too live a good Christian life, and hope one day we can meet and share our stories. So let's do what we can right now to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, regardless of out disagreements.

 

[He is the way]

So what does a Bedouin in the desert do to get baptized? Get on a camel and travel for a week to find a river somewhere? What does a Bedouin in the desert do if she is ill and cannot travel? No baptism for her?

The thing you misunderstand is the difference between a norm and an adaptation. The norm can be immersion, and for the EO that is their norm. But what if you don't have that much water anywhere near you? Here's the Didache, written somewhere near 100 AD on how to baptize:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

By the way, 'living water' means flowing water as in a river. This is the teaching of the Apostles, and codified even before your 'great apostasy' happened. Well, whenever your great apostasy happened.

Where does the New Testament say baptism MUST be by immersion?

When people are rained on it does not symbolize a burial. Going under the water symbolizes a burial. Jesus is our example:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:16)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The living water is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[dzheremi]

We can discuss this apostasy question for a long time. I believe there was an apostasy that took place. I believe the NT gives plenty of examples of it happening, and it warns of further apostasy, and it uses this specific verbiage, "when I have departed". This was the apostle Paul saying that when he departs, the flock will not be spared. Exactly what we say.

And yet nowhere does St. Paul nor any other apostle or other figure of early Christianity ever preach a universal apostasy that would make the Church so corrupted as to need to be 'restored' later by the coming of another prophet with another gospel.

So, no, it is not exactly what you say. You take it and then use your Mormon theology and prophetology to fill in the gaps between what is actually there and what you already believe, even if the result is something that is actively against the witness of all the fathers, from the time of the apostles down to today.

You do not believe it, and I can understand why, although you must admit to apostasy, but maybe not a universal apostasy.

To pretend as though no one would fall away is to ignore the scriptures and the witness of the early fathers (who certainly wrote enough on the heresies of their own times) not any less than to pretend that everyone would fall away, thereby ignoring the same witness of both. The difference is that your religion is guilty of the latter error, while mine is guilty of neither.

We believe that keys of the priesthood were not passed on as the apostles died, because the world rejected Jesus Christ and killed his apostles

How strange it must be to have to hold this belief while also believing that St. John never died and indeed is still walking the earth now (that still blows my mind), and knowing that the faith was accepted at Rome, at Thessalonica, at Philippi, and all the other places mentioned in the Bible. The cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming.

and so Jesus went to his alternative plan for the salvation of the people.

Jesus already is the plan, and He did not fail and does not fail. According to your 'alternative' history of Christianity, Mormons feel otherwise, but you are quite simply wrong about that.

Your religion is an example of enduring under extreme pressure from the Muslims and I know you to be an outstanding example of Christian living. I believe I too live a good Christian life, and hope one day we can meet and share our stories. So let's do what we can right now to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, regardless of out disagreements.

The way that we have endured all this time in Egypt or in any place (same as in Turkey, same as in Iraq, same as in Armenia and Persia, as in Sudan, etc.) is by our unshakable belief in the Holy Trinity -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Who are One in essence. It is the Holy Spirit Who taught us the Orthodox faith, and keeps us in it. You and I both know from our previous theological discussions that this is not your faith, so while it is not my place to say anything about you as an individual on account of what you believe instead, I can at least say with no prejudice towards you or any other Mormon that it is not my faith, so I am afraid that I will not be joining in those specific wishes, because I don't know the Christ that you say is coming again (shouldn't that be a third coming in Mormonism, rather than a second, since your Christ came to the Americas to preach to the Nephites?). He is not the Christ of Christianity.

That said, I wish you all the best things in life, and pray that the Lord has mercy on us all, both in this world and in that to come, so that we are treated according to His mercy, and not according to our sins.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Some believe that sprinkling is a valid substitute for immersion.

There is no other way to eat an Oreo with milk than immersion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

When people are rained on it does not symbolize a burial. Going under the water symbolizes a burial. Jesus is our example:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:16)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The living water is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It may not 'symbolize' a burial, but in my shower it is an effective washing, which is the literal meaning of the word baptism anyhow. You can get all legalistic about baptism by immersion if you want to. The Baptists do that too. In fact, your insistence only makes it look like you are perhaps a radical offshoot of the Anabaptists. They agree with you about Baptism. Only because they lost the connection to the apostles and cling to a book they don't fully understand for their rules on baptism.

 

[Peter1000]

You forgot one of your references to be the false gospel of your church. The "key" Jesus gave Peter was to open the door to the kingdom of heaven to the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10. The door is open and the gates of hell have not prevailed against it (including the damning lds gospel). We, the believers in Christ, are responsible for preaching the Gospel and leading people to the Kingdom. The entrance to the Kingdom is based solely on accepting Jesus Christ (the real one, not the false Christ of the lds who is only a god, not the God) as Lord and Savior. This key, this Gospel of Christ, is passed down unfettered and uninterrupted from generation to generation through the preaching of the Word. Not church membership or some special "authority".

The keys were not used to open any door, Jesus opened the door and he will close it. Read Matthew 16:18-19, find me that verbiage in the scriptures, you will not find it. What the keys were for is for binding and loosing, and heaven recognizing the work of the ministry of the apostles.

Whatever church does not have the keys, their ministry will not be recognized by heaven. Since you don't know what the keys were for, then........