Studying the Trinity

Tsquared

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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!
 

HTacianas

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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!

Read Philo of Alexandria's Doctrine of the Logos here:

Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

It's short and will help.
 
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Devin Hammond

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It’s basic church doctrine 101. The Trinity has been taught all throughout church history.

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascendedinto heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello @Tsquared, first off, welcome back to CF :wave:

Here's a short and funny video from the folks at Lutheran Satire about the Trinity, or perhaps more specifically, about what the Trinity is not. They point out that most/all Trinitarian analogies not only fall short of explaining the Biblical mystery of the Godhead, they also end up being a heretical teaching about the Godhead, to one degree or another. It's very informative and very enjoyable :)

BTW, my favorite analogy is the one that has three lit candles standing together on a fireplace mantle. Three candles/One light.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I'll throw a couple of Trinitarian Scripture verses in here too. Please take note of the fact that the word "name" in Matthew 28:19 is singular. IOW, the Lord Jesus told us to baptize in the (singular) "name" of God, and that name is, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

Genesis 1
26 God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

.
 
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disciple Clint

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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!
a little something from Aquinas. SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The knowledge of the divine persons (Prima Pars, Q. 32)
a little something from Augustine. CHURCH FATHERS: On the Trinity, Book I (St. Augustine)
 
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tturt

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An example of each one of the Godhead involved in the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2). (Prepositions help)

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5;18).)

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) Jesus said "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it in Matt 3:13-16. (Matt 3:6,11; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him. (Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31).

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
 
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Athanasius377

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The thing to remember is that those who put scripture to paper experienced God as Trinity. The theological language we use was formed in the crucible of the early church fighting off heretical doctrines. So while it is true you wont find the word Trinity in the bible the doctrine of the trinity is found thought the bible both old and new testaments. A really good book I can recommend is James White's "The Forgotten Trinity". Besides explaining what the Trinity is he also explains why it is so vitally important tothe lives of everyday Christians.
 
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Tsquared

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Hello @Tsquared, first off, welcome back to CF :wave:

Here's a short and funny video from the folks at Lutheran Satire about the Trinity, or perhaps more specifically, about what the Trinity is not. They point out that most/all Trinitarian analogies not only fall short of explaining the Biblical mystery of the Godhead, they also end up being a heretical teaching about the Godhead, to one degree or another. It's very informative and very enjoyable :)

BTW, my favorite analogy is the one that has three lit candles standing together on a fireplace mantle. Three candles/One light.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - I'll throw a couple of Trinitarian Scripture verses in here too. Please take note of the fact that the word "name" in Matthew 28:19 is singular. IOW, the Lord Jesus told us to baptize in the (singular) "name" of God, and that name is, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

Genesis 1
26 God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

.

Thanks so much for this David! That video literally made my day lol. Blessings to you for taking the time to give me this information!
 
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Tsquared

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It’s basic church doctrine 101. The Trinity has been taught all throughout church history.

Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascendedinto heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Thank-you for providing this information, I appreciate it! As I mentioned in the original post, the movement I grew up in taught something more like Modalism, so I am starting to look into this for myself. I am beginning to understand it more, and for that I am so thankful. Have a blessed day!
 
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Tsquared

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The thing to remember is that those who put scripture to paper experienced God as Trinity. The theological language we use was formed in the crucible of the early church fighting off heretical doctrines. So while it is true you wont find the word Trinity in the bible the doctrine of the trinity is found thought the bible both old and new testaments. A really good book I can recommend is James White's "The Forgotten Trinity". Besides explaining what the Trinity is he also explains why it is so vitally important tothe lives of everyday Christians.

That makes good sense, thank-you for sharing this! It's definitely true, I can see that the concept of the Trinity can definitely be found throughout the Scripture. I will definitely look into purchasing that book! Blessings!
 
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Tsquared

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Devin Hammond

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Thank-you for providing this information, I appreciate it! As I mentioned in the original post, the movement I grew up in taught something more like Modalism, so I am starting to look into this for myself. I am beginning to understand it more, and for that I am so thankful. Have a blessed day!

It’s a pretty elementary church teaching but it is also a great mystery.

I’ve heard it compared to ice, water, and steam. All one and yet separate.

The Trinity is a basic core doctrine of the Church and to deny the Trinity is considered a heresy.

The majority of Christian Churches teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

You may also want to research quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the Trinity by doing a google search.
 
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Devin Hammond

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Early Trinitarian Quotes
by Matt Slick

There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priestJesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christianapologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
 
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The Athanasian Creed is actually used in some Protestant Churches. Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed Churches are among some of the Churches who use it. Of coarse it is also used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. So it is accepted by the majority of Christians.
 
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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!

One of the first things to understand is that basically all analogies are going to be problematic. It's why trying to say "The Trinity is like..." usually ends up just causing more confusion than bringing clarity.

God as Trinity isn't like anything with which we have in our experience. There's simply nothing like God.

So when we say that there are three Divine Persons, each fully and equally God--the one and same God--it describes something which, on some level, we simply can't relate to on the basis of our own experiences outside of God's own self-revelation of Himself.

Two things are being asserted as fundamentally true:

1. There is only one God.
2. There are three Persons or Hypostases.

That word hypostasis (plural hypostases) is a complicated one. It's a Greek word that can be translated as "subsistence". But what it is really trying to capture is the idea of meaningful existence, something discrete and real. In regard to the Trinity it means that the Father is really the Father, that's Who He is; distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. "Father" isn't just a face, or a mask God wears, instead there really is this One who is Father, and He is Father because He is the Father of the Son. It is therefore relational, He is the Father of the Son, that is very real, eternally real. In the same way that the Son, distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, really exists as the Son of the Father, the only-begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father from all eternity.

So that there is one God, the Father. And the Father eternally begets the Son, and the Son as the eternally-begotten of the Father is God, just as the Father is God. So that the Father and the Son are the same God.

The Son is God because the Father is God. Thus we speak of the Son's eternal generation from the Father, as God of God, and therefore He is homoousios (of-Same-Being) with the Father. The Father's Being, His Essence, His Eternal IS-ness as the one and only God is also the Being, Essence, and Eternal IS-ness of the Son. Thus the Son is God, the one and only God, even as the Father is God, the one and only God.

Likewise, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father [and the Son], and is therefore God, in just the same way the Father and the Son are God. The one and only God.

So that there is the Father, unbegotten and unproceeding.
The Son, only-begotten of the Father.
The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father [and the Son].

So that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three Divine Persons and Hypostases, of one undivided Being and Essence. One God, Three Persons.

Helpful resources:

The Nicene Creed
The Nicene Creed

The Athanasian Creed aka The Quicumque Vult
Quicumque

Perhaps somewhat more obscure, but a local synod held in Toledo in the 7th century produced a rather fantastic statement of Trinitarian faith:
COUNCIL OF TOLEDO XI 675 – Creed of Faith

-CryptoLutheran
 
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