Truth and Deceptions

Albion

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The Bible records some lies, but it is believed that Scripture is truthful since it is divine revelation.

If it instead were, as some people think, just the musings of some old Jewish writers, then it would be a different matter.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The Bible records some lies, but it is believed that Scripture is truthful since it is divine revelation.

If it instead were, as some people think, just the musings of some old Jewish writers, then it would be a different matter.
It would only record a story of people lying to each other or things that are considered a lie however it would not record false doctrines, as being true. Be blessed.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Hi All,

Any Christians on here think there may be truth and lies worked into the religion and the bible itself?
Or do you believe the bible to be all truth?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...
Welcome ! There is no false doctrine in scripture. Be blessed,
 
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Jess347

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Welcome ! There is no false doctrine in scripture. Be blessed,

Hi Maria, Thanks.
Please see my response to another, highlighting one point⬇️

I just find that the old and new testament are extremely contradictory...
It seems like the Father that Christ taught about and the God of the old testament are very different beings...
Why do you think?
 
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Jess347

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I think that, after the Fall, God brought mankind along slowly and according to (His) plan. If not, Christ would have come thousands of years earlier.

Right, ok!
But isn't there a difference between bringing mankind along slowly and instructing barbaric behaviour ... and wouldn't God- The supreme being have a harmonious plan, beyond violence and destruction ?
 
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Albion

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There's no doubt that God does have a harmonious plan. That's more than evident in Scripture, especially in the New Testament which is the "payoff." But the chastisements and etc. in the Old Testament that you must have in mind, we do have a hard time explaining, that's true.
 
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...Any Christians on here think there may be truth and lies worked into the religion and the bible itself?
Or do you believe the bible to be all truth?...

I don’t think Bible has lies, but I also don’t think it has everything in it. Reason why I think so is that I have not seen any lie in it.
 
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Right, ok!
But isn't there a difference between bringing mankind along slowly and instructing barbaric behaviour ... and wouldn't God- The supreme being have a harmonious plan, beyond violence and destruction ?
This is a part of a post of mine on another thread which addresses a person's thoughts that the God of the OT is so diff from the God of the NT:
"I think that your perspective is void of a reality of God's judgement in the NT and new church/what some call the age of grace.
Turn to Acts 5:1-11 NIV:
"Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

The above event occurred in the establishing early church of which you speak.


Additionally, when Jesus sent out the Twelve in Matt 10 He gave them instructions to follow among others,
"As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues."

Does that sound like the peace and love and grace you insist was the preeminent mind frame of the early church and not mindful of God's judgement and serious perplexity in a Christian's life? Shaking the dust of of one's feet as they left was to put a curse upon whoever was being departed in that culture and time. Even today it is a great offense to show the sole of your foot to another in the middle east.

What about this Jesus also said:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34 ESV

You mistake the REAL mind frame of the early Christians, most of whom were Jews. Jesus and His church ARE merely the progression of one story of Yahweh. The OT and NT are INTENTIONALLY included within a single book cover. The NT is the result and answer to what occurs in the OT under the SAME Yahweh. Yahweh's judgement and anger against evil and sin have not dissipated one iota, and we shall all see (and are seeing) that unmistakably. The only difference between the two is that God, Yahweh, sent us His only begotten Son to teach us and show us. For example, Jesus did NOT remove the 10 Commandments, He only made it simpler for us to understand them by giving two, which, if followed, would avoid more than just the 10 Commandments but ALL sin. And then Jesus came ultimately to become the prophesied Messiah, the Savior, the unblemished Lamb whose sacrificed, slaughtered blood would save any who chose to believe, not for just a moment any longer, but for all eternity.

Then, if you still think that the God of the NT is exclusively all about peace and harmony what about the warnings that any follower of His would be hated and abused and what about all of the righteously judgemental things He does in Revelations; condemning someone to eternity in an eternal abyss of fire and flames?
 
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Monksailor

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A God of Love must also be a God of Justice;

A Holy God,

Must also be a God of Reproach.

No one becomes perfect when they are saved

And most, if not all, struggle with pride

So Jesus' huge concern as he looked toward the cross in prayer
(John 17)
Unity or cooperation of believers

Goes ignored.
 
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concretecamper

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Right, ok!
But isn't there a difference between bringing mankind along slowly and instructing barbaric behaviour ... and wouldn't God- The supreme being have a harmonious plan, beyond violence and destruction ?
I really dont see a difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.

There are sufferings endured by man in the past 2,000 years just as there has been sufferings in the 4,000 years before that.

God HATES sin. I think the concept of sin has been lost by His people. There are serious consequences to sin.
 
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Jess347

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In Matthew 10:16-22
It's says ... "be wary as serpents and innocent as doves. And be on guard, for MEN will hand you over to their courts, THEY will flog you in the synagogues.....when you are arrested, do not worry about wht you are to say.... the words will be given to you.... it will be the spirit of your father speaking in you... brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child, children will turn against their parents and send them to death, All will hate you for your allegiance to me..."

So is it not man that is the perpetrator of the evil doings in this case?

And then in Matthew 10:34-36
" I have not come to bring peace but a sword. I have come to set man against his father, a daughter against her mother....a man will find his enemies under his own roof...no man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me, no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and walk in my footsteps..."

It may be said that he brings a sword not peace, but in Ephesians 6:10-18
"Put on all the armour which God provides..."

The 6th piece of amour is a 'sword'

"For sword, take that which the spirit gives you. The words that come from God."

Is this not be the sword refered to in Matthew? To bring the words from God to the enemies in your home?

Bit of a contrasting description of what the nature and purpose of the sword is...in the OT & NT...

Exodus 32:27-29
"Levites all rallied to him. He said to them, these are the words of the Lord the God of Israel: Arm yourselves, each of you with a sword. Go through the camp from gate to gate and back again. Each of you kill his brother, his friend, his neighbour. The Levites obeyed and about three thousand of the people died that day."

???






This is a part of a post of mine on another thread which addresses a person's thoughts that the God of the OT is so diff from the God of the NT:
"I think that your perspective is void of a reality of God's judgement in the NT and new church/what some call the age of grace.
Turn to Acts 5:1-11 NIV:
"Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

The above event occurred in the establishing early church of which you speak.


Additionally, when Jesus sent out the Twelve in Matt 10 He gave them instructions to follow among others,
"As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues."

Does that sound like the peace and love and grace you insist was the preeminent mind frame of the early church and not mindful of God's judgement and serious perplexity in a Christian's life? Shaking the dust of of one's feet as they left was to put a curse upon whoever was being departed in that culture and time. Even today it is a great offense to show the sole of your foot to another in the middle east.

What about this Jesus also said:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34 ESV

You mistake the REAL mind frame of the early Christians, most of whom were Jews. Jesus and His church ARE merely the progression of one story of Yahweh. The OT and NT are INTENTIONALLY included within a single book cover. The NT is the result and answer to what occurs in the OT under the SAME Yahweh. Yahweh's judgement and anger against evil and sin have not dissipated one iota, and we shall all see (and are seeing) that unmistakably. The only difference between the two is that God, Yahweh, sent us His only begotten Son to teach us and show us. For example, Jesus did NOT remove the 10 Commandments, He only made it simpler for us to understand them by giving two, which, if followed, would avoid more than just the 10 Commandments but ALL sin. And then Jesus came ultimately to become the prophesied Messiah, the Savior, the unblemished Lamb whose sacrificed, slaughtered blood would save any who chose to believe, not for just a moment any longer, but for all eternity.

Then, if you still think that the God of the NT is exclusively all about peace and harmony what about the warnings that any follower of His would be hated and abused and what about all of the righteously judgemental things He does in Revelations; condemning someone to eternity in an eternal abyss of fire and flames?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I just find that the old and new testament are extremely contradictory...
It seems like the Father that Christ taught about and the God of the old testament are very different beings...
Why do you think?
The Old Testament was under the "Old Covenant" meaning under the Mosaic Law. There are 613 Laws the Jews needed to keep. The New Testament is under the "New Covenant" where the power of the Blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth was made sufficient to atone for all sin. All through the Old Testament Prophets prophesied of the Messiah who would one day fulfill and make the necessary change that brought us all into Him, forgiven and into The Kingdom of God.
The Old Testament tells the story of the purity of the Blood line of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. All necessary steps were taken to preserve the line that would produce the Savior. So it may seem as though there are two different contradictory God's from the old to the new but rather, there are two different ways God interacted with His people and eventually all people.
Be blessed.
 
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Jess347

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But the penalty and act of carrying out the punishment for sin changed dramatically between the New and Old.

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
⬆️the punishment for sin, is not receiving eternal life in the kingdom of heaven, not to be murdered by man.

New Testament⬇️
Psalms 145:20 - "The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."
⬆️he will destroy.... not he will command man to destroy/kill and was done in the OT.

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

2 Corinthians 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."

Luke 6:35-36
"But you must love your enemies and do good: and lend without expecting any return, and you will have a rich reward, you will be son of the most high, because he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked."
⬆️there wasn't much kindness shown to the ungrateful and the wicked in the old testament...

Old Testament
Leviticus 26:14-46
“But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, ..."

Chronicles 15:13-14
"and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Deuteronomy 13:13-17
"And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God."

Isaiah 14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."

Deuteronomy 5:9
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"
⬆️⬇️ Huh???
Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."


???


I really dont see a difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.

There are sufferings endured by man in the past 2,000 years just as there has been sufferings in the 4,000 years before that.

God HATES sin. I think the concept of sin has been lost by His people. There are serious consequences to sin.
 
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Tone

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I just find that the old and new testament are extremely contradictory...
It seems like the Father that Christ taught about and the God of the old testament are very different beings...
Why do you think?

I believe you may be seeing something in the way that human tradition has contraposed (if I'm using that correctly) the roots from the shoots.

If you question the Bible as truth, and the religious systems such as Christianity. Maybe you can start looking for contradictions between those two things, instead of going with both being false out the gate.

Just something to chew on.

Shalom.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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Hi All,

Any Christians on here think there may be truth and lies worked into the religion and the bible itself?
Or do you believe the bible to be all truth?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...
Have you read 1st John chapters 1 thru 5 ?
I believe it was written to the new Ekklesia (assembly of those born again by the Will of the Father in heaven),
so they could "know" what is true, and that they were in the light, as God is light.

When the Father in heaven Reveals His Word, Salvation, to anyone, He does not lie, and He does not make a mistake at all, no, never.

Someone long ago said God hates religion. But God Loves People.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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I just find that the old and new testament are extremely contradictory...
It seems like the Father that Christ taught about and the God of the old testament are very different beings...
Why do you think?
All Scripture Is Inspired (Breathed) by the Creator, and is in perfect complete agreement with God's Plan, Purpose, and Salvation in Christ Jesus.
Those things that man/mankind / religion/ the world has confused,
remain confused for the world, for those who are not born again in Christ Jesus.

The Heavenly Father is Well Pleased to Reveal all of this ,as His Word Clearly States, to little children, and He likewise hides it from the educated, for such is His Good Pleasure so to do, as Jesus Plainly Says.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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But the penalty and act of carrying out the punishment for sin changed dramatically between the New and Old.

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
⬆️the punishment for sin, is not receiving eternal life in the kingdom of heaven, not to be murdered by man.

New Testament⬇️
Psalms 145:20 - "The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."
⬆️he will destroy.... not he will command man to destroy/kill and was done in the OT.

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

2 Corinthians 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."

Luke 6:35-36
"But you must love your enemies and do good: and lend without expecting any return, and you will have a rich reward, you will be son of the most high, because he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked."
⬆️there wasn't much kindness shown to the ungrateful and the wicked in the old testament...

Old Testament
Leviticus 26:14-46
“But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, ..."

Chronicles 15:13-14
"and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Deuteronomy 13:13-17
"And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God."

Isaiah 14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."

Deuteronomy 5:9
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"
⬆️⬇️ Huh???
Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."


???

For me, I see the old testament as the story of the fall of mankind into sin and departing God's image that we have been created in and the wages of sin to those who practice it being death which is God's judgement for sin. Sodom and Gomorrah being good examples and also those lands that received God's judgements when Israel departed Egypt.

Both the old and new testament making up the Word of God shows Gods' judgement for sin predominately in the old testament scripture and His love for mankind and plan of salvation to those who believe and follow his Word and the new testament is predominately God's mercy. The old testament pointed forward to the coming of JESUS and Gods' people believed it by faith while through the new testament we look back to JESUS who the old testament scriptures pointed to.

For me I see God's love in both the old and new testament scriptures fulfilled on the cross. I see this because the wages of sin has always remained the same (DEATH). Yet we see God sending his own son who is God, to die the death that we deserve to die in order to satisfy God's judgement and penalty for the sins that we have committed so that we can receive God's forgiveness and mercy and be reconciled to God.

No one can know God's Word without asking God to by their guide and teacher and asking him for his Spirit but Gods' promise is that we shall seek him and find him when we shall search for him with all of our heart. I see God is calling you. He is knocking on the door of our hearts. It is up to us to open the door and let him in. He promises to be with us and reveal himself to us if we do so. There is lies in religion. There is no lies in God's Word as God's Word is the very definition of what truth is. God cannot lie.

Welcome dear sis and may God bless you as you seek him through his Word. :wave:
 
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