At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[zoidar]

Imo, The Lord calls everyone, but not all of us are willing to go through the narrow gate. Although I don’t actually believe in predestination, there are scriptures suggesting it, so...

Sorry, not meant to be unkind. It's just that we see it all the time, quoted verses that can mean many different things, and no explanation given.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Out of pure curiosity, what do you think Luther believed and taught?

-CryptoLutheran

Salvation BY FAITH, and NOT by works (which are the natural fruit if BEING Born Again by FAITH. (Eph 2:8,9)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Salvation BY FAITH, and NOT by works (which are the natural fruit if BEING Born Again by FAITH. (Eph 2:8,9)

And what do you think that means?

For example, how does one get faith?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And what do you think that means?

For example, how does one get faith?

Romans 10:17 Faith comes by HEARING< and HEARING By the Word of God. FAITH in invariably the result of God revealing His intentions by means of the Holy Spirit. CONVICTION OF SIN is the initial revelation, and the beginning of FAITH, when one repents and surrenders to God.

 

[bekkilyn]

God does not offer salvation to anyone. He preaches (announces) the salvation of believers. Those who choose to believe don't believe or they would not need to choose. Salvation is a supernatural experience that causes the saved to believe.

How do you reconcile the concept of a God who is the very embodiment of both justice and love to a god who will specifically create billions upon billions of souls for the SOLE PURPOSE of condemning them to an eternity of suffering? Do you truly believe it is justice by ANY definition to create a life for the purpose of everlasting torture? How do you even justify such a horrendous belief? It's abusive.

That's not the gospel. That's not GOOD news. That's not the character of a just, loving, and merciful God who seeks to restore creation, who so loved the WORLD that he would do anything, even suffer and experience the consequences of sin, to demonstrate just how much love he has for the salvation of all people.

His love is for all. His grace is for all. Over and over he reaches out his hand and hopes with all his heart that we choose to take it.

 

[RickReads]

How do you reconcile the concept of a God who is the very embodiment of both justice and love to a god who will specifically create billions upon billions of souls for the SOLE PURPOSE of condemning them to an eternity of suffering? Do you truly believe it is justice by ANY definition to create a life for the purpose of everlasting torture? How do you even justify such a horrendous belief? It's abusive.

That's not the gospel. That's not GOOD news. That's not the character of a just, loving, and merciful God who seeks to restore creation, who so loved the WORLD that he would do anything, even suffer and experience the consequences of sin, to demonstrate just how much love he has for the salvation of all people.

His love is for all. His grace is for all. Over and over he reaches out his hand and hopes with all his heart that we choose to take it.

What`s hard to reconcile? The Bible says the devil is the Father of the lost. People who don`t want to accept the existence of tares always seem to point fingers at God instead of accepting what the Bible says about it.

 

[zoidar]

God does not offer salvation to anyone. He preaches (announces) the salvation of believers. Those who choose to believe don't believe or they would not need to choose. Salvation is a supernatural experience that causes the saved to believe.

Hm, at least God offers forgiveness of sins to everyone.

Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:

‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’
— Acts 13:38-41

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is there consensus on what the Gospel is?

The gospel is the historical accounts of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice to save humanity. Hence the term “the good news”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah, I recall reading those, would have given a totally different conclusion than the finalized canon.

I haven’t taken the time to read them yet. I started to read the epistle of Barnabas but decided to stop because I’m not even sure if he wrote it. There were a lot of forgeries back in the day. I really would be interested in reading his writings. I think Barnabas was probably my favorite apostle. Either him or Paul it’s hard to decide.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The two severest cases of discipline in the apostolic church were the fearful punishment of Ananias and Sapphira by Peter for falsehood and hypocrisy in the church of Jerusalem in the days of her first love,2 and the excommunication of a member of the Corinthian congregation by Paul for adultery and incest.3 The latter case affords also an instance of restoration.4

4; “But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;” 2 Corinthians 2:5–10 (KJV 1900)


Schaff, P., & Schaff, D. S. (1910). History of the Christian church (Vol. 1, p. 503). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.

Brother there’s nothing there that suggests he repented or was saved. It certainly is possible but inconclusive.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nice work, I think I'll copy it. But Ephesus 431 condemned Pelagianism as heresy.

They didn’t condemn all of Pelagian’s teachings. They never rejected Pelagian’s idea that God’s punishment on those who reject Him would be unjust if they were not capable of repentance.

 

[bekkilyn]

What`s hard to reconcile? The Bible says the devil is the Father of the lost. People who don`t want to accept the existence of tares always seem to point fingers at God instead of accepting what the Bible says about it.

So you're suggesting that it wasn't God who created all of those people for the sole purpose of everlasting torture, but rather the devil who created them? You're giving an awful lot of power to the devil.

 

[RickReads]

So you're suggesting that it wasn't God who created all of those people for the sole purpose of everlasting torture, but rather the devil who created them? You're giving an awful lot of power to the devil.

No need to put words in my mouth. I didn`t say a word about the devil creating nor do I give him any power. I`m suggesting that the Bible says the devil is the father of sinners. I`m also suggesting that it isn`t right to blame God for the lost.

 

[bekkilyn]

No need to put words in my mouth. I didn`t say a word about the devil creating nor do I give him any power. I`m suggesting that the Bible says the devil is the father of sinners. I`m also suggesting that it isn`t right to blame God for the lost.

I don't at all blame God for those who choose not to take him up on his offer of grace, who choose to remain separated from him.

God would only be at fault if the perversion of the gospel (GOOD news) known as Calvinism is true, that God specifically, intentionally, and willfully created billions of people for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torture and suffering. Can't blame the devil for something the devil didn't do.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17 emphasis mine)

I'm not sure what part of "everyone" Calvinists can't seem to understand.

 

[RickReads]

I don't at all blame God for those who choose not to take him up on his offer of grace, who choose to remain separated from him.

God would only be at fault if the perversion of the gospel (GOOD news) known as Calvinism is true, that God specifically, intentionally, and willfully created billions of people for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torture and suffering. Can't blame the devil for something the devil didn't do.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17 emphasis mine)

I'm not sure what part of "everyone" Calvinists can't seem to understand.

Well, I`m not a Calvinist but let me ask you one question.

Do you believe God is Omniscient?

 

[Saint Steven]

The gospel is the historical accounts of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice to save humanity. Hence the term “the good news”.

That's not the definition of "the gospel" you were using in post #254.

BNR32FAN said: ↑
He said if you stand firmly in the faith of the gospel not if you are faithful enough to God. Standing firmly in the faith of the gospel means your trusting in the gospel not that you are being faithful to God that’s a whole different situation. You either believe and trust the gospel or you don’t. There’s no believing and trusting the gospel a little bit or believing and trusting a lot. It’s an either or situation. You either believe all of it or you don’t. How can someone have a little faith in the gospel without failing to believe all of it?

 

[bekkilyn]

Well, I`m not a Calvinist but let me ask you one question.

Do you believe God is Omniscient?

Yes, but I also believe that God is capable of forgetting...such as when he chooses to blot out our sin and not even remember it. What you're probably getting at here is something like, "God already knows everything we're going to do anyway, so he just goes ahead and gets all the torture and condemning done with before all those billions of people ever exist in the first place." But if such were the case, then God could easily also NOT choose to create all those billions of people and therefore completely and mercifully avoid the entire issue.

Just because God has the power of omniscience doesn't necessarily mean he always chooses to wield it.

It's also very possible that due to his omniscience that he has done exactly that and has created not a single human being that would ever choose to reject him and therefore God ultimately saves everyone.

Here's the thing. People interpret the scriptures in the bible in various ways and there is never going to be universal agreement before the full and complete realization of God's kingdom, but I do know this. If an interpretation completely goes against the character of God and is in opposition to the GOOD news, then there is something deeply wrong with it.

God is more loving, more just, more merciful, more good than every human being who has ever existed upon the earth COMBINED (with the exception of Christ, of course, who is God), and if even a moderately sinful human being wouldn't even consider the possibility of torturing most of their own children for an ETERNITY simply for being born through no choice of their own into a fallen world, then would you truly and sincerely believe that a God who is PERFECT at love, justice, mercy, compassion, kindness, and goodness would treat his children that way when he could easily, through omniscience, choose to just never create them?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but I also believe that God is capable of forgetting...such as when he chooses to blot out our sin and not even remember it. What you're probably getting at here is something like, "God already knows everything we're going to do anyway, so he just goes ahead and gets all the torture and condemning done with before all those billions of people ever exist in the first place." But if such were the case, then God could easily also NOT choose to create all those billions of people and therefore completely and mercifully avoid the entire issue.

Just because God has the power of omniscience doesn't necessarily mean he always chooses to wield it.

It's also very possible that due to his omniscience that he has done exactly that and has created not a single human being that would ever choose to reject him and therefore God ultimately saves everyone.

Here's the thing. People interpret the scriptures in the bible in various ways and there is never going to be universal agreement before the full and complete realization of God's kingdom, but I do know this. If an interpretation completely goes against the character of God and is in opposition to the GOOD news, then there is something deeply wrong with it.

God is more loving, more just, more merciful, more good than every human being who has ever existed upon the earth COMBINED (with the exception of Christ, of course, who is God), and if even a moderately sinful human being wouldn't even consider the possibility of torturing most of their own children for an ETERNITY simply for being born through no choice of their own into a fallen world, then would you truly and sincerely believe that a God who is PERFECT at love, justice, mercy, compassion, kindness, and goodness would treat his children that way when he could easily, through omniscience, choose to just never create them?

Right. Great post. Thanks!

Jesus teaches that loving your enemy is godly behavior.
The Damnationists make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax-collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[coffee4u]

Are you saved when you're
Called
Called and Chosen
Called, Chosen and Faithful

Some believe once saved always saved, with some scripture to suggest this. Some believe they can lose salvation, with some scripture to suggests this. I do not wish to argue, debate over this, just your thoughts on the above question, whichever side you're on.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Peace be with all those in the body of Christ

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[RickReads]

Yes, but I also believe that God is capable of forgetting...such as when he chooses to blot out our sin and not even remember it. What you're probably getting at here is something like, "God already knows everything we're going to do anyway, so he just goes ahead and gets all the torture and condemning done with before all those billions of people ever exist in the first place." But if such were the case, then God could easily also NOT choose to create all those billions of people and therefore completely and mercifully avoid the entire issue.

Just because God has the power of omniscience doesn't necessarily mean he always chooses to wield it.

It's also very possible that due to his omniscience that he has done exactly that and has created not a single human being that would ever choose to reject him and therefore God ultimately saves everyone.

Here's the thing. People interpret the scriptures in the bible in various ways and there is never going to be universal agreement before the full and complete realization of God's kingdom, but I do know this. If an interpretation completely goes against the character of God and is in opposition to the GOOD news, then there is something deeply wrong with it.

God is more loving, more just, more merciful, more good than every human being who has ever existed upon the earth COMBINED (with the exception of Christ, of course, who is God), and if even a moderately sinful human being wouldn't even consider the possibility of torturing most of their own children for an ETERNITY simply for being born through no choice of their own into a fallen world, then would you truly and sincerely believe that a God who is PERFECT at love, justice, mercy, compassion, kindness, and goodness would treat his children that way when he could easily, through omniscience, choose to just never create them?

I have said nothing about God`s judgment. You are making a lot of rationalization with no scripture supporting. I don`t think the Bible gives enough information on the judgment for anyone to
say how severe it will be or how much mercy there will be.

It is certain that those who belong to Christ will be treated differently than those who don`t. It is also certain that God has foreknown all those who come to Christ.

Isaiah 46
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"