At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[Studyman]

And Martin Luther & John Calvin are? What’s your point? I’ve already proven that the disciples of the apostles refuted reformed theology. Are you going to say that all of Christianity failed right after the apostles and the world was left completely void of the word of God until Martin Luther and John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later? What was the point of establishing a church then? Did Christ’s plan fail in the first century of His church?

You are assuming the Catholic church, the mother of most all modern religions, was the Church Christ and HIS Apostles founded. The Christ's Church has never failed. However, as Jesus teaches, there are "Many" who were to come in His Name who are deceivers.

Luther and Calvin kept the Catholic doctrine in their reformed theology, at least most of it. The religious tradition of creating shrines of worship, Catholic High Days, images of God in the likeness of a handsome long haired man, creating huge business in Christ's Name. These traditions are simply a revised modern version of the Levitical Priesthood.

The true church of Christ never partook of these religious traditions and their religious philosophies. This is why Paul said to "be ye separate" and "touch not the unclean thing", and Rev. says to "Come out of her".

Christ's plan doesn't fail for those who "deny themselves, carry their own cross (life's experiences) and follow the Christ. These modern religious franchises do not reflect the example of the Church which first gathered on Feast of Weeks.

 

[Dave L]

I very vehemently disagree on practically all levels.

However, I am in agreement with the following quote by John Wesley:

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley (Emphasis mine)​

Here's the trade-off. If Christ died for all, and most are lost, he must not have paid for sin at all. It must come back to only those who are saved. Either he paid only for their sins only, or they saved themselves through self-righteous works the others did not perform.

 

[Dave L]

And Martin Luther & John Calvin are? What’s your point? I’ve already proven that the disciples of the apostles refuted reformed theology. Are you going to say that all of Christianity failed right after the apostles and the world was left completely void of the word of God until Martin Luther and John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later? What was the point of establishing a church then? Did Christ’s plan fail in the first century of His church?

You need to track the Reformed position through history. It rests in the council of Ephesus of 431 that condemned Pelagianism (today's gospel) as heresy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

never said they were as they are just men not Apostles.

So you accept the interpretation of men who came 1500 years after the apostles over the interpretation of the disciples of the apostles and won’t say why you reject the disciple’s interpretation?

 

[Dave L]

You are assuming the Catholic church, the mother of most all modern religions, was the Church Christ and HIS Apostles founded. The Christ's Church has never failed. However, as Jesus teaches, there are "Many" who were to come in His Name who are deceivers.

Luther and Calvin kept the Catholic doctrine in their reformed theology, at least most of it. The religious tradition of creating shrines of worship, Catholic High Days, images of God in the likeness of a handsome long haired man, creating huge business in Christ's Name. These traditions are simply a revised modern version of the Levitical Priesthood.

The true church of Christ never partook of these religious traditions and their religious philosophies. This is why Paul said to "be ye separate" and "touch not the unclean thing", and Rev. says to "Come out of her".

Christ's plan doesn't fail for those who "deny themselves, carry their own cross (life's experiences) and follow the Christ. These modern religious franchises do not reflect the example of the Church which first gathered on Feast of Weeks.

The core issue is free will. The council of Ephesus condemned Pelagianism (free will) as heresy in 431. Most churches today believe this heresy along with the Catholics. Possibly you too?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are assuming the Catholic church, the mother of most all modern religions, was the Church Christ and HIS Apostles founded. The Christ's Church has never failed. However, as Jesus teaches, there are "Many" who were to come in His Name who are deceivers.

Luther and Calvin kept the Catholic doctrine in their reformed theology, at least most of it. The religious tradition of creating shrines of worship, Catholic High Days, images of God in the likeness of a handsome long haired man, creating huge business in Christ's Name. These traditions are simply a revised modern version of the Levitical Priesthood.

The true church of Christ never partook of these religious traditions and their religious philosophies. This is why Paul said to "be ye separate" and "touch not the unclean thing", and Rev. says to "Come out of her".

Christ's plan doesn't fail for those who "deny themselves, carry their own cross (life's experiences) and follow the Christ. These modern religious franchises do not reflect the example of the Church which first gathered on Feast of Weeks.

Again another person mistaking the Roman Church for the apostolic Catholic Church. Rome was excommunicated in 1054AD.

 

[RickReads]

Again another person mistaking the Roman Church for the apostolic Catholic Church. Rome was excommunicated in 1054AD.

You don`t know what you're talking about. Cardinal Humbert excommunicated the Byzantines first.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You need to track the Reformed position through history. It rests in the council of Ephesus of 431 that condemned Pelagianism (today's gospel) as heresy.

Pelagianism is was condemned at the councils of Carthage and Orange. The council of Ephesus was against Nestorianism which was about Christ’s divine nature. It has nothing to do with man’s sinful nature or Pelagianisn.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You don`t know what you're talking about. Cardinal Humbert excommunicated the Byzantines first.

Have you ever heard of the pentarchy? You might want to look this up and pay close attention to how many of them sided with Rome and how many of the adopted the name Orthodox in 1054AD.

 

[RickReads]

Have you ever heard of the pentarchy? You might want to look this up and pay close attention to how many of them sided with Rome and how many of the adopted the name Orthodox in 1054AD.

Maybe you should look at it. The order of precedence starts with Rome. Constantinople is second.

 

[d taylor]

Are you saved when you're
Called
Called and Chosen
Called, Chosen and Faithful

Some believe once saved always saved, with some scripture to suggest this. Some believe they can lose salvation, with some scripture to suggests this. I do not wish to argue, debate over this, just your thoughts on the above question, whichever side you're on.



Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Peace be with all those in the body of Christ

Non of your above.

I was given Eternal Life the moment i believed Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trusted in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life (salvation)

 

[zoidar]

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

Here's my take on this.

Who belongs to the Church? Did you belong to the Church before you were saved? I would say no. Can you point to someone in the Bible who belonged to the Church before being saved? Of course not!

So Christ has purchased the Church of believers. If you like you can compare it to a boat. The boat is the Church purchased with his blood. When a person is saved, he gets on the boat that takes him home. We are not possessions of Christ before we are saved.

I know many would disagree with this, but we are not atoned by Christ until we receive him as savior. Yes he has borne our sins, but atonement is after salvation, not before.

God bless!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Both the Orthodox and Roman churches have always condemned paganism

Then explain Iconology, Purgatorial sanctification, veneration of statues, the whole Marianist mess, the falsehood the a priest can absolve for SIN, and many other clearly NON-Biblical beliefs shared to some degree among Catholics. You Decry "Paganism" until you re-shape into your own tradition, and start to serve it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If by the time of Luther the Church were "devoid of any spiritual truth at all" then that renders the Reformation itself meaningless. The Reformation depends upon the truth of the Catholic faith. That's something that so many modern Protestants fail to understand because they don't know what the Reformation was even about.

-CryptoLutheran

Chances are that it's the ROMANISTS that have no idea what the reformation was all about. Rome had FORGOTTEN the simplicity of Eph 2:8-9, and covered it over with layers of their own worthless Traditions, Works requirements, and Rituals. Luther returned to the simplicity of the Gospel, and the Visible church of Jesus Christ has been digging out from under Rome's corruption ever since.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Maybe you should look at it. The order of precedence starts with Rome. Constantinople is second.

Says who? Like I said how many people supported Rome’s claim to papal supremacy? ZERO PEOPLE that’s how many. The bishop of Rome was completely alone in his claim. ALL of the other patriarchates rejected his claim and adopted the name Orthodox. Now between these two groups who’ve split, which one exhibited Christ’s teachings? Rome or the Eastern Orthodox Church? Here’s a hint the Eastern Orthodox Church didn’t go around forcing people to convert by arresting, imprisoning, torturing, and executing nonbelievers for 686 years. Perhaps you’d like to share some skeletons in the Orthodox closet? I looked, I can’t find any. So please be my guest.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And Martin Luther & John Calvin are? What’s your point? I’ve already proven that the disciples of the apostles refuted reformed theology. Are you going to say that all of Christianity failed right after the apostles and the world was left completely void of the word of God until Martin Luther and John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later? What was the point of establishing a church then? Did Christ’s plan fail in the first century of His church?

Nope, the HOLY SPIRIT is the life of the CHurch, and HE's been around all through the catastrophic foolishness that the visible church went through, and God has always drawn people to CHrist - IN SPITE of the visible church, and more recently more because of it. Martin Luther was God's PROHET to the Roman Catholic Church in a time when the Roman Catholic system had essentially forgotten what Christianity was even all about with their pagan teachings, and worthless rituals. The Visible church has been rebuilding line upon line, and precept ever since. The Charismatic outpouring of the '70s was the latest "Season of Refreshing", that brought MANY Roman Catholics into real salvation.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Perhaps you’d like to share some skeletons in the Orthodox closet? I looked, I can’t find any. So please be my guest.

The "Orthodox Denominations" have always been closer to genuine Biblical teaching, and haven't followed ROme's pagan excesses. but the Orthodox still cover up the utter simplicity of the gospel with layers of tradition, and ceremonial fluff.

 

[RickReads]

Says who?

Says both of them to my knowledge.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Chances are that it's the ROMANISTS that have no idea what the reformation was all about. Rome had FORGOTTEN the simplicity of Eph 2:8-9, and covered it over with layers of their own worthless Traditions, Works requirements, and Rituals. Luther returned to the simplicity of the Gospel, and the Visible church of Jesus Christ has been digging out from under Rome's corruption ever since.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is just a tiny piece of the message. Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t include Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10 that we must abide in Him does it? Or His message in Luke 13:6-9 that every tree that doesn’t bear fruit will be cut down. Yeah Luther had a good idea and a just cause for rebelling against the Roman Church. Unfortunately his theology was not correct. So far everyone who claims that a person cannot lose their salvation has failed to explain how John 15:6 can be possible. I mean Jesus said that this will happen and reformed advocates seem to skip over this verse and others.

 

[RickReads]

So far everyone who claims that a person cannot lose their salvation has failed to explain how John 15:6 can be possible. I mean Jesus said that this will happen and reformed advocates seem to skip over this verse and others.

I explained it to you. You just won`t accept the truth.