Calvinism and Abortion

[StillGods]

More and more you have proven to me that I made the right choice to reject Calvinism!

Thank you for that!!

yes confirms that for me too

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

And the context says,

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They believed (were saved) or they would not have sought answers and obeyed Peter.

You speak your own opinion but offer no proof in the Bible that this is so.

 

[SPF]

And the context says,

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).

So every single man that "hath heard" and "hath learned of the Father", come to Christ. Let's put that together then.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me..."

6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

6:45 - "Every man that hath heard and learned of the Father come to me..."

That sounds very providential. And my questions still remain: Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

And with the addition of verse 45, let's add another question - Can a man who has heard and learned of the Father choose not to come to Christ?

 

[mlepfitjw]

So every single man that "hath heard" and "hath learned of the Father", come to Christ. Let's put that together then.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me..."

6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

6:45 - "Every man that hath heard and learned of the Father come to me..."

That sounds very providential. And my questions still remain: Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

For me it was the desire to know who Christ Yeshua was... before I only knew what was taught by pastors in the pulpits. And also seeking for the truth ie; found in Christ Yeshua.

And with the addition of verse 45, let's add another question - Can a man who has heard and learned of the Father choose not to come to Christ?

Yes, they can but that goodness of God, and his mercy will and can allow enough time for a person to reconsider.

I believe it is possible for God to reach people even after death, some do not however.

 

[Yesha]

I believe it is possible for God to reach people even after death, some do not however.

Are you saying that you believe that salvation is still possible for those who have died in their sins? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Are you saying that you believe that salvation is still possible for those who have died in their sins? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I believe salvation is possible even after death, but the only way is through the Lord Yeshua Christ.

I only get this idea and notion from the last chapter of the bible where it says that people who did not want nothing to do with God are outside of the city, enjoying what it is they like to do without God present.

All people sins in this world have been completely nullified by the blood of Christ Yeshua, even before coming to the notion of belief itself. In my case, was forgiven when I was created. So goes for all people no matter how bad they are in the flesh, their sins have been paid for.

The only thing they lack if anything is Faith and only God knows the heart of people, is if anyone believed on his son Yeshua Christ and desired God and Yeshua to be in their lives.

So is possible for people who died and are in God's city to go out to lost who still need help, after this life ? Who is to say, God knows our hearts and our desires when it comes to our fellow neighbors.

 

[Yesha]

Yes, I believe salvation is possible even after death, but the only way is through the Lord Yeshua Christ.

I only get this idea and notion from the last chapter of the bible where it says that people who did not want nothing to do with God are outside of the city, enjoying what it is they like to do without God present.

All people sins in this world have been completely nullified by the blood of Christ Yeshua, even before coming to the notion of belief itself. In my case, was forgiven when I was created. So goes for all people no matter how bad they are in the flesh, their sins have been paid for.

The only thing they lack if anything is Faith and only God knows the heart of people, is if anyone believed on his son Yeshua Christ and desired God and Yeshua to be in their lives.

So is possible for people who died and are in God's city to go out to lost who still need help, after this life ? Who is to say, God knows our hearts and our desires when it comes to our fellow neighbors.

Thank you for your response. I think that Revelation 20 tells us that there are no second chances.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 (ESV)​

John's vision indicates that those who are judged and not found written into the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. I'm not sure what passages you're referring to in particular, but this one leads quite emphatically to the conclusion that the lake of fire is the final, eternal place of the damned.

 

[mlepfitjw]

@Yesha The final resting place for hades and death is thrown in the lake of fire. That is what the scriptures indicate.

I believe these things have already happened and move on forward to Revelation chapter 21, so in my belief in believing the Hades/Hell/She'ol (Paradise/prison), Satan, Death, have been all conquered over because of the Lord Yeshua Christ, and to that effect I believe he done came back.

Even the great white judgement has happened. Was this judgement on the nation which God has been chosen as his own nation he worked through? It is possible, even while coming and taking the bride up to heaven?

Chapter 21, still has people that rejected God still alive, outside the city, and God said himself he rather have someone out right hate him, or love him.

Than to be lukewarm, neither hot or cold for him which would be someone who God only knows by their heart their agenda and judges according for his will to pan out in their life.

Though we all have our individual judgement as we pass from life to death, judged based on our faith Love for God, and Love For others.

So our belief systems will differ because of difference of understanding.

Hope you forgive the long response, I get excited when explaining my beliefs regardless of what people may think of them! God bless friend thank you again. Yesha.

 

[Yesha]

@Yesha The final resting place for hades and death is thrown in the lake of fire. That is what the scriptures indicate.

I believe these things have already happened and move on forward to Revelation chapter 21, so in my belief in believing the Hades/Hell/She'ol (Paradise/prison), Satan, Death, have been all conquered over because of the Lord Yeshua Christ, and to that effect I believe he done came back.

Even the great white judgement has happened. Was this judgement on the nation which God has been chosen as his own nation he worked through? It is possible, even while coming and taking the bride up to heaven?

Friend, are you a full preterist?

Chapter 21, still has people that rejected God still alive, outside the city, and God said himself he rather have someone out right hate him, or love him.

Are you referring to Revelation 21:27?

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

Hope you forgive the long response, I get excited when explaining my beliefs regardless of what people may think of them! God bless friend thank you again. Yesha.

Thank you for corresponding!

 

[mlepfitjw]

Friend, are you a full preterist?

No, I am not a full preterist because I do not know what they all believe.

I believe in that the bible is completed because of what Yeshua Christ had told and spoke to his disciples, and that he never lied, and they understood that something bad was gonna end up happening with in that generation which was long ago.

(I have had a person as a teacher for 4 years and that has a lot to do with my understanding and way of looking at scripture) Revelation is one of the hardest books to understand which took my teacher a year to cover.

Though the idea of fulfillment lead me to desires to question if a futurist way was possible, which it is but not really cause this world will always be here after we pass away, and if the Lord word never shall pass away, why would the world stop after death?

Are you referring to Revelation 21:27?

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

No, Im very sorry, (chapter 22) had it has been awhile since I have talked about this. ​

Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Thank you for corresponding!

Very welcome friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So every single man that "hath heard" and "hath learned of the Father", come to Christ. Let's put that together then.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me..."

6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

6:45 - "Every man that hath heard and learned of the Father come to me..."

That sounds very providential. And my questions still remain: Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

And with the addition of verse 45, let's add another question - Can a man who has heard and learned of the Father choose not to come to Christ?

Jesus was first sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So those who have learned of the Father would be faithful Jews under the Old Covenant and not just anyone today. They were not being forced against their will to learn of the Father but they already decided to follow God along time ago.

This following of God was based on their choice. How so? Just check out the following verses.

Joshua 24:15 says,
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

 

[Dave L]

You speak your own opinion but offer no proof in the Bible that this is so.

Who does anything if they do not believe it is worth doing?

 

[SPF]

Jesus was first sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So those who have learned of the Father would be faithful Jews under the Old Covenant and not just anyone today. They were not being forced against their will to learn of the Father but they already decided to follow God along time ago.

This following of God was based on their choice. How so? Just check out the following verses.

Joshua 24:15 says,
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

This is why I tend to avoid these conversations. It's virtually impossible to get the person you're speaking with to engage with the actual verses you're using and to answer the actual questions you're asking.

You didn't address the verses I provided. You didn't answer the questions I asked. I suppose you don't want to actually have a meaningful discussion. If I'm wrong, please feel free to actually respond to the verses I posted and the questions I asked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why I tend to avoid these conversations. It's virtually impossible to get the person you're speaking with to engage with the actual verses you're using and to answer the actual questions you're asking.

You didn't address the verses I provided. You didn't answer the questions I asked. I suppose you don't want to actually have a meaningful discussion. If I'm wrong, please feel free to actually respond to the verses I posted and the questions I asked.

Sorry, friend. Your questions are loaded. Your questions assert Calvinism into these verses when they do nothing of the sort. Yes, it is true that no man can come unto the Lord unless the Father draws Him, but the condition is verse 45 (Which you did not originally quote) that says everyone who has learned of the Father comes unto Jesus. This is 100% true. Again, this is in reference in context of ALL Jews who were truly learning of God the Father (for real) would then naturally accept their Messiah; Or do you assert such nonsense that Jesus was seeking to save the Gentiles before the Jews? So it's not talking about us Gentiles! Anyways, ALL Jews who were truly pure of heart were the ones who would all accept their Messiah. This is not in reference to Unconditional Election that says God zaps a person to believe contrary to their will. So this is not a blanket statement in regards to Calvinism.

This does not also mean that these Jews who accepted their Messiah cannot later fall away due to temptation of sin, or other false beliefs, too. Scripture says: We have to endure to the end. Scripture says: We have to overcome. Scriptures says: We have to fight the good fight of faith. Scripture says: We have to keep ourselves in the love of God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
This statement in our Bible is nonsense if Calvinism was true.
For the Calvinist believes faith is something God gives to a person.
So why write to the reader to encourage them to have faith in Hebrews 11?
For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
But the Calvinist does not believe that.

Side Note:

You also did not explain the three verses that show that the Israelites had free will in accepting God. So you are not addressing any verses here. You are not addressing my rebuttal. You just assert Calvinism is true with no substantial basis in Scripture for it. If John 6 really taught Calvinism, it would say that God draws both Jews and Gentiles beyond their own will, and they cannot take any credit for God giving them faith and regeneration. But it doesn't say that. Almost every page of your Bible is a refutation of Calvinism. Why would God give us commands if we were automatically going to do what He wants? The fact that if we are breaking God's commands shows that we are outside His will. This is why Calvinism is just dumb.

 

[SPF]

Yes, it is true that no man can come unto the Lord unless the Father draws Him, but the condition is verse 45 that says everyone who has learned of the Father comes unto Jesus. This is 100% true. Again, this is in reference in context of ALL Jews who were truly learning of God the Father (for real) would then naturally accept their Messiah; it's not talking about us Gentiles! Anyways, ALL Jews who were truly pure of heart were the ones who would all accept their Messiah.

I find this response a little wanting.

Verse 44 states: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This seems to be a pretty clear statement. It would mean that if the Father didn't draw someone to Christ, then they wouldn't come to Christ. So the natural question that all of us should come up with would be: Does the Father draw all people towards Christ?

Jesus is quoting Isaiah in verse 45, and it seems to be saying that everyone who has truly heard and learned from the Father, will come to Christ.

But again, according to verse 44, it is the Father who must first draw a person to Christ, isn't it? How can it mean anything else? Can you reword verse 44 to say what you think it means if it doesn't mean that the Father must first draw someone to Christ before they accept Him?

You also did not explain the three verses that show that the Israelites had free will in accepting God. So you are not addressing any verses here.

Of course I didn't address your verses. Why would I when your response was essentially a stand alone response and had nothing to do with what I wrote? I'll show you respect and address what you write after you show the same courtesy and we adequately address the passages that I've brought up.

You just assert Calvinism is true

I find this statement to be more revealing of yourself than anything. I'm not a Calvinist, and I've never called myself one. You apparently saw Calvinism yourself, when all I did was quote some verses and ask some questions. Perhaps you aren't being honest with yourself about what you see in Scripture?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I find this response a little wanting.

Verse 44 states: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This seems to be a pretty clear statement. It would mean that if the Father didn't draw someone to Christ, then they wouldn't come to Christ. So the natural question that all of us should come up with would be: Does the Father draw all people towards Christ?

Jesus is quoting Isaiah in verse 45, and it seems to be saying that everyone who has truly heard and learned from the Father, will come to Christ.

But again, according to verse 44, it is the Father who must first draw a person to Christ, isn't it? How can it mean anything else? Can you reword verse 44 to say what you think it means if it doesn't mean that the Father must first draw someone to Christ before they accept Him?

Again, the context is the Jews and not Gentiles!
Is it true that no man can come unto the Father unless the Father draws Him?
Yes, but this was applicable to the time of when Jesus was seeking the lost sheep of Israel, and it's not the time after the cross. When Jesus is lifted up (i.e. His death, burial, and resurrection), that is when He (JESUS) will draw all men unto Himself.

For Jesus said,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (John 12:32).

This suggests a change in how things work. Jesus will then do the drawing. But it does not say that when Jesus draws they cannot refuse.

Of course I didn't address your verses. Why would I when your response was essentially a stand alone response and had nothing to do with what I wrote? I'll show you respect and address what you write after you show the same courtesy and we adequately address the passages that I've brought up.

No. You didn't address them because they refute your idea that salvation is forced upon us and it does not involve our free will.

I find this statement to be more revealing of yourself than anything. I'm not a Calvinist, and I've never called myself one. You apparently saw Calvinism yourself, when all I did was quote some verses and ask some questions. Perhaps you aren't being honest with yourself about what you see in Scripture?

If you are not a Calvinist, or if you do not have Calvinistic leanings, then you would not be pushing the Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44.

 

[SPF]

No. You didn't address them because they refute your idea that salvation is forced upon us and it does not involve our free will.

Sorry champ, but I don't lie. Most of the time I choose not to get involved in these discussions because when observing them, all I usually see is people talking across each other and ignoring what they actually say. This is what you did. You ignored the Scriptures I asked questions about and instead provided different Scriptures as if they somehow refuted those Scriptures. This is a poor and unproductive way to engage in discussion. It's not actually a discussion at all when that takes place. So I personally don't do it.

Again, the context is the Jews and not Gentiles!
Is it true that no man can come unto the Father unless the Father draws Him?
Yes, but this was applicable to the time of when Jesus was seeking the lost sheep of Israel, and it's not the time after the cross. When Jesus is lifted up (i.e. His death, burial, and resurrection), that is when He (JESUS) will draw all men unto Himself.

Ok fair enough, so your understanding of this passage is that in the OT it was impossible for people to choose on their own to come to Jesus and that God had to first draw them.

So my question is pretty simple then - In the OT, if it was impossible to come to Jesus without first being drawn by the Father, did the Father draw all men to Jesus in the OT?

For Jesus said,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (John 12:32).

This suggests a change in how things work. Jesus will then do the drawing. But it does not say that when Jesus draws they cannot refuse.

I completely agree with you, it certainly does not say in this passage that people cannot refuse the draw of Christ.

If you are not a Calvinist, or if you do not have Calvinistic leanings, then you would not be pushing the Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44.

I'm not pushing any interpretation of John 6:44, I'm merely asking questions. You ought to stop assuming. You know what they say about people who assume, right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry champ, but I don't lie. Most of the time I choose not to get involved in these discussions because when observing them, all I usually see is people talking across each other and ignoring what they actually say. This is what you did. You ignored the Scriptures I asked questions about and instead provided different Scriptures as if they somehow refuted those Scriptures. This is a poor and unproductive way to engage in discussion. It's not actually a discussion at all when that takes place. So I personally don't do it.

Again, you are asserting false conclusions into your questions that are not true.
That would be like asking me, “Which cats do you like better?” “The purple cats that fly” “Or the green cats that breath fire?” Such questions are ridiculous because there are no cats that are like that.

Ok fair enough, so your understanding of this passage is that in the OT it was impossible for people to choose on their own to come to Jesus and that God had to first draw them.

So my question is pretty simple then - In the OT, if it was impossible to come to Jesus without first being drawn by the Father, did the Father draw all men to Jesus in the OT?

This was ONLY those Old Testament saint believers who were already learning of the Father already by their own free will choice to seek after God daily, and not just any Israelite who did not believe.

I completely agree with you, it certainly does not say in this passage that people cannot refuse the draw of Christ.

I'm not pushing any interpretation of John 6:44, I'm merely asking questions. You ought to stop assuming. You know what they say about people who assume, right?

Your initial interpretation on John 6:44 was Calvinistic (Whether you want to admit that fact or not) or whether you claim to be a Calvinist or not. The non-Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44 would say that this verse is not teaching that we are being forced against our free will to choose God. Thus, you would have agreed with me instead of fighting over it.

 

[SPF]

This was ONLY those Old Testament saint believers who were already learning of the Father already by their own free will choice to seek after God daily, and not just any Israelite who did not believe.

I don't see how that corresponds to Jesus saying this:

Verse 44 states: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

It sounds like Jesus was saying that on their own (The Jews), they were incapable of choosing Christ without the Father drawing them in. Yet, you're saying the opposite. Let me give it a try and you can tell me what you think, contrary to what you've been ignorantly asserting, this will be my first attempt at interpretation. And I'll even use your assumption that what Jesus said here has nothing to do with us and was entirely for the Jews.

1. The Jews in the OT were incapable of coming to Christ (they didn't even know they were coming to Christ) without the Father drawing them.

2. The Jews in the OT, while possessing an inherited sinful nature, were still not so corrupt as to have no desire to seek God daily and to learn about the Father.

3. The Father, seeing who actually had a free willed desire to learn about Him would then, based upon the free will inclinations of the Jews, choose to draw 100% of those to Christ.

Is that what you're trying to say? If not, I'll need you to try and do a better job of clarifying.

Your initial interpretation on John 6:44 was Calvinistic

I provided no initial interpretation.

Thus, you would have agreed with me instead of fighting over it.

I'm sorry if I have questions because what you're saying doesn't yet seem to line up with what I'm reading.