Calvinism and Abortion

[Dave L]

I re-edited my post for better clarification. Please hit the refresh button. My point was for YOU to clarify what you meant. Your not doing that. But this is a common tactic among Calvinists.

If you are biased against Calvinist, why should I spend time with you?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

But they sinned in Adam. What Adam did in the Garden was imputed to all his posterity, including you and I. When he ate of that tree, we were in him, as he was our federal head. It was just as if you and I had ate of that tree.

This is not imputed on the unborn. They are innocent. Generational sin is in error. Those who are born with severe mental disabilities are in the category as well.
The only scriptural evidence that supports your version has been refuted by Jewish Rabbis and scholars of the like. King David was always known as a child born out of sin his mother comitted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam proved his species is corrupt. No need to test the whole bunch individually.

“"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:19-20‬ ‭NASB

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Adam proved his species is corrupt. No need to test the whole bunch individually.

I agree with you that all died in Adam. A baby does not have an eternal body that will never grow up to never sin because they sinned in Adam. For the baby is a part of Adam. All babies who grow up have an inclination to sin because of the stain of Adam. This is what condemns the body of the baby to death. But I believe Jesus reverses the curse, though.

 

[98cwitr]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

I think this may apply:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Also

Romans 9:11
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Babies are not capable of being aware of their sin, so while they have sin nature, the guilt of it (and judgement/damnation) does not apply.

The Didache 2:2 (while not Scripture, but early Church's teaching) calls us to abstain from abortion. To destroy/kill that which God has formed in His image, who has done nothing wrong, is a sin. But yes, the desire for abortion stems from Total Depravity.

That said, abortions are part of God's Plan, for nothing good or bad inside of reality happens without His Will (Isaiah 45:7 speaks to this, among other verses). Evil even has a purpose, as much as we might hate to admit it; but that purpose is to bring about an ultimate good. We must fight if we have a God-given nature to do so.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with you that all died in Adam. A baby does not have an eternal body that will never grow up to never sin because they sinned in Adam. For the baby is a part of Adam. All babies who grow up have an inclination to sin because of the stain of Adam. This is what condemns the body of the baby to death. But I believe Jesus reverses the curse, though.

For everyone?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Nothing I wrote was an argument against that.

Hello Zoidar,
Just trying to clarify this issue for others,

 

[Yesha]

While I am strongly against Calvinism, I believe our Lord is sovereign. I believe God chooses those souls in whom He knew would be faithful to Him to be aborted babies. For God knows the end from the beginning.

Would you be able to show me from the Word how you have come to this conclusion?

 

[Sovereign Grace]

This is not imputed on the unborn. They are innocent. Generational sin is in error. Those who are born with severe mental disabilities are in the category as well.
The only scriptural evidence that supports your version has been refuted by Jewish Rabbis and scholars of the like. King David was always known as a child born out of sin his mother comitted.

Babies are not born innocent. You’re teaching Pelagianism, which is heresy. If babies are innocent, they can not die, as the wages of sin is death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam proved his species is corrupt. No need to test the whole bunch individually.

So your saying that unborn infants are being punished for sins they haven’t committed yet or for Adam’s sin which is contrary to Ezekiel 18:19-20

 

[BNR32FAN]

Babies are not born innocent. You’re teaching Pelagianism, which is heresy. If babies are innocent, they can not die, as the wages of sin is death.

First of all that is not even close to Pelagianism. Pelagian taught that we could achieve sinlessness on our own merit which is way off from what this person said. Second we’re talking about abortion which is about an infant before it is even born in fact it’s not even fully developed yet. What sin have these unborn infants committed?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Who, why, what is an elect baby???

Good question,
Without sin in the world,there would be no death.
Sin has tragically changed the world, and death by sin.
God was not surprised by the sin of Adam.
Before the world was created God purposed to save a multitude of fallen sinners in union with His Son.
Jn 6:37-44,Hebrews2:11-16.
We all have an appointed time of death
HEB9:27.even infants,so those who wrote the 1689 confession of faith wisely wrote that;
All elect infants dying in infancy would be saved by the working of the Spirit,which is unseen
That answers the question totally as it leaves it 100% up to God and His Holy wisdom, and omniscience.
In other words, if God has elected all infants who die that is His will.
If God has elected147 million infants who die, He alone knows why.
If he did not elect any, He would have a reason.
Many want to speculate and say God would not, or could not do this or that.
I do not speculate, but leave it to God as the confession of faith does. Gen 18:25

So elect infants would be those who were given by the Father to the Son.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

So your saying that unborn infants are being punished for sins they haven’t committed yet or for Adam’s sin which is contrary to Ezekiel 18:19-20

In that passage, the fathers are not representing their sons. Adam represented his posterity and when he sinned, that was imputed unto them. You’re conflating these two accounts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree with you that all died in Adam. A baby does not have an eternal body that will never grow up to never sin because they sinned in Adam. For the baby is a part of Adam. All babies who grow up have an inclination to sin because of the stain of Adam. This is what condemns the body of the baby to death. But I believe Jesus reverses the curse, though.

We inherited Adam’s sinful nature not the guilt of his sin.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

First of all that is not even close to Pelagianism. Pelagian taught that we could achieve sinlessness on our own merit which is way off from what this person said. Second we’re talking about abortion which is about an infant before it is even born in fact it’s not even fully developed yet. What sin have these unborn infants committed?

They sinned in Adam. When Adam sinned, that was imputed unto them, and it’s as if they did it themselves. And yes, she’s teaching Pelagianism. He taught that Adam’s sin only affected him, and that babies are born innocent. He denied original sin, just as she seems to do.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

We inherited Adam’s sinful nature not the guilt of his sin.

That’s like saying you got the flu, but not the virus. You can’t inherit one w/o the other.

 

[98cwitr]

They sinned in Adam. When Adam sinned, that was imputed unto them, and it’s as if they did it themselves. And yes, she’s teaching Pelagianism. He taught that Adam’s sin only affected him, and that babies are born innocent. He denied original sin, just as she seems to do.

Your interpretation of Romans 9:11 please.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

This is not imputed on the unborn. They are innocent. Generational sin is in error. Those who are born with severe mental disabilities are in the category as well.
The only scriptural evidence that supports your version has been refuted by Jewish Rabbis and scholars of the like. King David was always known as a child born out of sin his mother comitted.

Let’s let the Bible have the final say, okay?

Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 15:1-3]

God has instructed Saul, through Samuel, to completely destroy the Amalekites, even kids and infants. Only a cruel God would command the death of innocent life.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Who does Paul write to a lot in his letters, it seems to elected people in regions that where addressed as saints, and elected. Example is the twelve tribes of Israel, elect/saints of Rome.

Why is AMERICA not in the Bible? Just seems to be nations, and it would mean the surrounding Israel at the time.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Your interpretation of Romans 9:11 please.

It’s pretty self explanatory. This is displaying God’s electing love.