Hesychasm

[Francis Earl]

I am aware of people for which even the Gnostic gospels have rocked their faith, let alone the evidence of the development of what became Christianity outside this...

You can either shield yourself from all this or take it on in light of practice.

For me, truth isn't just what I think it is... truth is what remains after all challenges, it is what exists when everything else is dropped.

If scripture is the basis of your belief, you have to protect it constantly.

Yet, it is intended to reveal truth... and there is nothing that challenges truth... everything necessary supports it, else it isn't true.

 

[Francis Earl]

Indeed, this whole process of recognizing truth isn't what I think it is represents catharsis... gradually you have to understand reality doesn't care what you think.

This is the first stage of theosis.

This is often termed the "dark night of the soul"...

 

[Francis Earl]

Again, how all these things relate and ultimately prove Christ are beautiful to me...

Yet, I fully understand that if you haven't come to the peak of hesychasm it won't make sense to you...

I am truly sorry to any I have caused problems for.

Still, I firmly believe that only in this can we actually have peace in the world.

And it is only Orthodoxy that has focused on this... the Catholics have said to look at Orthodoxy for this and the Protestants are mostly oblivious.

This is what sets Orthodoxy apart though, it is what makes it most true.

Every Orthodox saint has realized this, by definition... they are not just good or knowledgeable people, they have experienced this and it is the underlying message of the NT.

The rest is just commentary infused with the personality of the writer.

Taking their personality faults as the religion is a huge mistake, yet this is what the literalist does because they don't understand the message.

You can only do this by the Spirit, else your conclusions will be arbitrary and misguided.

Do not assume the pastor has the Spirit, pursue the Spirit always over any teaching... you will not miss your baptism by it when it happens. It is the most amazing experience possible for a human.

Just keep checking in with God.

Galatians 3:20

Everything else I'm doing is really just to undo the damage humans have done in coming to the Spirit in your life, I don't want you to trust me either...

God is available, so why trust any man?

Hesychasm helps make you receptive... that's all.

We just seem to forget that the Bible authors are men too...

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is God?

God is oneness...

So, while other religions call it differently, they are actually talking about the same reality.

Even Buddhism, which seems atheistic, has its Dharmakaya and notion of advaya... so it is wrong to say it rejects divinity.

no, that is not the Orthodox definition of God. certainly not that generic.

and I didn't say anything about Buddhism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As for achieving, I have been suggesting it in my rambles after your question...

Essentially, it is about removing what makes us separate... the ego... because God is already the foundation of life.

yes, but how does one remove what makes us separate?

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Indeed, Church means community, coming together around Christ... while the hesychasts life is often entirely solitary... so they are quite opposite ends of the spectrum.

God is Trinity. Where there are 2 or 3, there He is. Plus one more for the hesychast and you have four persons in community. We don’t worship a monad. We often say “God is a community unto Himself.”

 

[Hermit76]

Demons can be very convincing

 

[Francis Earl]

no, that is not the Orthodox definition of God. certainly not that generic.

and I didn't say anything about Buddhism.

I mean, it sorta is what the Bible says about God though... I mean, we add the activities of Jesus and Spirit into the mix and pretend there are three now, but the point is God does everything and is all that exists...

 

[Francis Earl]

yes, but how does one remove what makes us separate?

You're really gonna keep making me repeat myself instead of actually reading what I say?

I suppose you're looking for "grace" as an answer.

We are receptive to grace, however, by silencing the mind... which renders all mental divisions moot, they are necessarily projections used to explain reality rather than actually real distinctions.

 

[Francis Earl]

Demons can be very convincing

Tell me, what do you suppose a demon is?

I guess it seems to you like a great way to win an argument, but all you basically did is project your fear onto me.

You might as well say you don't want to consider what I am suggesting because reasoning is hard for you... which would at least be honest, I can respect that and have several times suggested to avoid my words if they cause any confusion... but calling me a demon is just lazy.

 

[prodromos]

Tell me, what do you suppose a demon is?

I guess it seems to you like a great way to win an argument, but all you basically did is project your fear onto me.

You might as well say you don't want to consider what I am suggesting because reasoning is hard for you... which would at least be honest.

Yeah, I really think you should stop now. You are just being rude.

 

[Francis Earl]

Yeah, I really think you should stop now. You are just being rude.

I wasn't trying to be rude, what I said was quite matter of fact...

I did edit after you hit reply to make this more clear, but the fact remains he is not contributing anything at all... he just posted to insult me and left.

 

[Francis Earl]

What is funny is I love his signature quote... yes, this is a faithful life... beautiful.

Yet, he has decided to judge rather than practice it.

Certainly, walking around obsessing over all this is wrong... it will not help at all... but what it can accomplish is a steadfastness because the mind can settle when it is sure.

It is most active when in confusion.

 

[Ezana]

Every mystic of every tradition comes to the same reality... I don't think any modern person actually takes their morality from Scripture anyway.

In the Zoroastrian religion, they have Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, which became the paradigm in Abrahamic traditions of God vs. Satan... Of course, Logos comes wholly from the Stoics and is impossible to understand without their use of the term... A lot of the teachings like "the Kingdom is within" of Luke 17:21 …comes directly from the Egyptian.

…the Eucharist also comes from Egypt and was practiced by Mithraic cults...

…You are a Christian, right?

You also show a complete lack of understanding of other traditions... Why do you think you can speak on this at all?

Not really how one ought to speak to an Orthodox on their own forum—let alone a priest.

Indeed, it is quite normal for monks of the Christian tradition to go to Zen monasteries...

I'm not convinced the NT does give us a moral code...

I do wonder what it would take to convince you...

I am a mystic... The thing with a mystic is that all scriptures start to look sorta silly when you realize the real thing...

This answers a lot of questions.

Just understand the point is your own transformation, not what any text says... Your own understanding will differ because the influences aren't the same.

What was that you were saying about ego..?

What matters is that you walk by the Spirit... This is what religion attempts to cause in all, but few get to here...

LUKE 9:55 KJV "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of."

You will gradually be able to tell what comes from the Spirit and what remains from the ego...

I do hope you reach that point some day.

What is God?

God is oneness... So while other religions call it differently, they are actually talking about the same reality.

So, again, it really is just the language thing... not a disagreement about reality.

No, there really is a fundamental disagreement about reality—at least outside of your own understanding.

Within the mystics of each tradition, though, the goal is the same... just different expressions about it. The arguments occur only in the lay believers... it is a function of superficial understanding.

I suppose you've conversed with all these mystics? Or perhaps, as a mystic yourself, you've accessed a level of understanding to which we "lay believers" simply cannot attain but to a superficial degree?

I fully understand that if you haven't come to the peak of hesychasm it won't make sense to you...

In memoriam: GIF

You can only do this by the Spirit, else your conclusions will be arbitrary and misguided.

LUKE 9:55 KJV "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of."

Everything else I'm doing is really just to undo the damage humans have done in coming to the Spirit in your life, I don't want you to trust me either...

I don't. Still, that won't stop me from echoing the statements of others and suggesting that your work of "(undoing) the damage humans have done" might be more welcome in our debate sub-forum or elsewhere on CF, such as the following spaces:

Controversial Christian Theology
Christianity and World Religion
Debate Other Religions & Faiths

 

[prodromos]

I wasn't trying to be rude, what I said was quite matter of fact...

I did edit after you hit reply to make this more clear, but the fact remains he is not contributing anything at all... he just posted to insult me and left.

He did not insult you. What he said was quite matter of fact. We have a long history of dealing with demons in the Orthodox Church. It's interesting that you took it as an insult though.

 

[Francis Earl]

…You are a Christian, right?

I consider myself one, but through all these perspectives about the faith not blindly... I think the message conveyed in the NT is true, but I am open to interpretations about how it came about historically because they do not affect my faith.

Not really how one ought to speak to an Orthodox on their own forum—let alone a priest.

I am replying authentically... if they clearly do not have the Spirit why will I treat them differently to anyone else?

I do wonder what it would take to convince you...

Can you show me any moral injunction in the NT? What I find is very different, although as Galatians 5 makes clear, it is not then permission to do wrong...

LUKE 9:55 KJV "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of."

How quickly people forget who the object of this assertion was... it was God fearing men who lacked the Spirit... it is not pagans or something, he is rebuking the faithful because they have not understood, they are worldly and full of greed... trading even in the temple.

No, there really is a fundamental disagreement about reality—at least outside of your own understanding.

Can you articulate it?

I am quite sure it is merely the believers projections that differ, reality is the same for all.

And you've spoken with all these mystics? Or perhaps, as a self-proclaimed mystic, you just have access to an understanding to which we 'lay believers' simply cannot attain but to a superficial degree?

Yes, I have spoked to hundreds of mystics... and studied under some from various traditions.

I don't. Still, that won't stop me from echoing the statements of others and suggesting that your work of "(undoing) the damage humans have done" might be more welcome in our debate sub-forum or elsewhere on CF, such as the following spaces:

Actually, my feeling is I will be retreating from dialog with Christians again because it turns out even those who are shown the reality by those who know as a function of their tradition still choose to miss it by a mile... which is quite depressing.

 

[Francis Earl]

I mean the Orthodox saints not anything I've said...

Also, it is James and John who are rebuked for how they respond about the Samaritans in that verse... yet you use it against me... odd choice.

They want to do something quite evil, but he corrects them... and these are the apostles.

I think many here could learn from it, because some treat anything strange as evil.

What is the example of Jesus, here?

Indeed, by the side of the road in the kindness of a stranger, and at the well where the woman knows who he is spiritually, we see examples of the enemy of the Jew being better people than them.

Why do you suppose these examples are there?

 

[Francis Earl]

I would say they show it is what is in the heart that matters to God, not which books you've learned that claim to be from him. Again, I say it is one of the best aspects of Orthodoxy that every writer is considered fallible, otherwise it would be blasphemy to say this. I do, however, think these stories can be quite eye opening if you can understand them.

It is very clear that those who strictly followed the Law and thought themselves set apart by God did not abide by anything Jesus said... their understandings were superficial because they did not have the Spirit, yet the enemy of the Jews have helped strangers on the road when Jews crossed the street... they have realized a prophet in their midst when the Jews have made him a heretic and want to kill him...

It is something very important to wrap your head around, because the modern Christian is quite like the Jew he is chastising and it is extremely sad to see. For me, this is Satan taking over religion again yet I am the demon by the believers eyes.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You're really gonna keep making me repeat myself instead of actually reading what I say?

I suppose you're looking for "grace" as an answer.

We are receptive to grace, however, by silencing the mind... which renders all mental divisions moot, they are necessarily projections used to explain reality rather than actually real distinctions.

I make you repeat yourself because you said you know what you are talking about, and yet you have missed something critical about hesychasm. which leads me to think that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I mean, it sorta is what the Bible says about God though... I mean, we add the activities of Jesus and Spirit into the mix and pretend there are three now, but the point is God does everything and is all that exists...

that's not what a hesychast would say.