Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[DavidPT]

The text in Revelation 9 tells us that the pit was shut at that point and is opened, but it does not tell us one way or another if the pit is shut back up after that. So, we can only speculate on that which doesn't get us anywhere.

So, why not think about it like this. The first thing we need to do, as it relates to Revelation 9, is to identify who the locusts represent. And that isn't hard to do. Their king is the angel of the abyss/pit (verse 11). It's only logical to conclude that the locusts symbolically represent fallen angels if their king is an angel, right? I believe so.

So, let's think about this. What this means is that the fallen angels had previously been cast into the abyss at some point before the fifth trumpet sounds. Even if we assume that Satan isn't among them ( though I see no reason to assume that), doesn't this mean that the fallen angels are in the abyss now, assuming that the fifth trumpet hasn't sounded yet? If so, does that mean they are not able to do anything at all?

If you try to say that the locusts don't represent all of the fallen angels, then that would mean the abyss/pit would need to be shut after letting those locusts (fallen angels) out in order to keep the rest of the locusts (fallen angels) or whoever else is in the abyss from getting out. In that case, the premil view that the pit has already been opened (at the fifth trumpet) when Satan is cast in would not be true.

So, with all of this in mind, please tell me your understanding of who the locusts represent and whether you think all of them (or all of whoever is in the abyss at the time) are loosed at the fifth trumpet or just some of them.

Another thing I'd like to discuss with you is the identity of the king of the abyss/pit, whose name is Abaddon in Hebrew and Apollyon in Greek. But, let's take it one thing at a time.

As to me, I honestly don't know if the pit is locked or already opened when an angel comes down from heaven, having the key to the pit. I was only suggesting that if for some reason the pit was already opened at the time, thus the key is only used to lock the pit back up, Revelation 9:1 would then explain how the pit would have already been opened, in a scenario such as that.


To me it doesn't make sense that the pit is not literal. Take the locusts in Revelation 9, for example. They are in this same pit, but if the pit is not literal, what point is being made while the locusts are locked up inside? We know from the text, that until the pit is opened, they are not able to torment men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Does this mean they are able to do other stuff to men while locked up in the pit, just not that in particular? Isn't that how Amils argue when satan is in the pit, it's not that he can do nothing at all, he just can't prevent Gentiles from being deceived like they were deceived in OT times, yet he can still do other things, such as actively persecute saints while in the pit?

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Unless I missed it somewhere prior to this verse in ch 9, the text does not indicate one way or the other if the king of the pit was locked up with the locusts at the time. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I just don't know, I don't know how anyone can know for certain.

Most Amils, and even some Premils, propose that Abaddon is meaning satan. I don't know if it is meaning him or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But even it was, the falling star in verse 1 could simply be meaning this same king of the pit, since it's not required that the king does have to be inside of the pit in order to be the king of it. And if the king of the pit is satan, and that this falling star is the king of the pit, we at least have now identified who the falling star is, not to mention, this would also undeniably prove Premil in the process.

 

[ewq1938]

As to me, I honestly don't know if the pit is locked or already opened when an angel comes down from heaven, having the key to the pit.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This implies to open the pit, the key was needed else someone without a key could have opened it.

 

[BABerean2]

In what way is this a problem for Premils to begin with? Let's assume for a moment Revelation 20:1 is meaning chronologically before Revelation 9:1. What is the status of the pit at that time? Is the pit already opened, thus the angel only has the key in order to lock it, and not to unlock it first, then lock it back up once satan is cast into it? Assuming the key is to unlock the pit in order to cast satan into it then lock the pit back up, how and when did the pit get locked up in the first place, and who initially locked it up?

Assuming the key is only used to lock the pit up once satan is cast into it, thus the pit is already opened at the time, how did the pit get opened to begin with, who initially opened it? In this scenario this is easily explained per Revelation 9:1, the fact we see someone opening the pit, yet we never see anyone locking it back up until Revelation 20:1. Per this scenario, this would tend to prove Premil not Amil, the fact this would indicate Revelation 9:1 chronologically precedes Revelation 20:1.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


Rev 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.


Rev 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.


Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."


.

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This implies to open the pit, the key was needed else someone without a key could have opened it.

I agree, but the question is, per Revelation 20:1, at that particular time is the key used to both unlock and lock the pit back up, or is the key only used to lock it back up, thus it was already open when the angel came down? If the latter, it seems to me that Revelation 9 would be explaining why it was already open when the angel came down, thus showing that Revelation 9 chronologically precedes Revelation 20:1.

After all, in chapter 9 we do not see anyone ever closing it back up, not until we get to ch 20. In ch 20 though, we for sure see someone closing it up. This is sorta like, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[ewq1938]

I agree, but the question is, per Revelation 20:1, at that particular time is the key used to both unlock and lock the pit back up, or is the key only used to lock it back up, thus it was already open when the angel came down?

I think it's opened with the key in the 5th trump and remains open until after the 7th trump when Satan is locked inside of it. I also believe the same angel comes and reopens it when Satan is released but it isn't describes in that much detail.

 

[Timtofly]

When you point one finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back in your direction.

I would prefer to have God judging me with all my fingers, but some times I have to point things out to others.

 

[Timtofly]

I was showing how ridiculous the claim is that Satan is already in the pit and has been bound up in it since Calvary.

I was trying to help.

 

[Timtofly]

You may have missed it, but the enemy was defeated at the cross.

We are our own worse enemy. We were bound and defeated at the Cross. Satan is still the Adversary and points out our faults hourly to God.

 

[Zao is life]

We have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of why an angel comes down from heaven with a key and unlocks the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if it was not locked before that time.

You have heard a reasonable explanation, and this is why it becomes so annoying when you copy and paste your posts from your treasure house of your saved posts - because you consistently falsely accuse people of not replying to you.

Whether or not you see it as a reasonable answer, the fact of the matter is that the pit was locked thousands of years before the time of Christ. Peter and Jude speak about angels being bound in a time which was thousands of years before Peter and Jude's day. The context of Peter and Jude's statements are ancient.

It does not matter whether or not you see the above answer (which you received before) as a reasonable answer - it is quite evident from the fact of all the statements regarding Satan's activity in the New Testament (as quoted in my OP in this thread), that Satan is only spoken of as being bound in Revelation 20, and that this cannot be during this age. To say so IS reasonable, in light of the scriptures quoted in my OP.

The fact of the matter is, to say that Satan has already been bound is unreasonable in the light of the Biblical facts which you see expressed in my OP. We have yet to hear a reasonable explanation from you of why the Lord and the apostles warned the churches about the activities and wiles of Satan in the world when according to you he was bound at Calvary. You have not given a reasonable explanation.

We have yet to hear a reasonable explanation from you of why the Greek word used in Revelation 20 speaks of a one-thousand year period only, not thousands of years. You have not given a reasonable explanation.

You have received reasonable explanations to all these things yet you simply keep posting the same tired old arguments just because you don't see the answers you received as reasonable, even though they are reasonable.

When you receive answers to these things, and you simply re-post the same tired old arguments again and again and again, it becomes extremely annoying. Angels might have patience with it, but not all saints do - because your posts are like a dripping tap, same old same old tired arguments posted again and again and again, many times merely copied and pasted from your treasure house of your stored posts from this and other threads, just because you do not regard the reasonable answers you received to those arguments, as reasonable.

Once again, you are assuming the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.
It is a simple matter to prove the book is not in chronological order.

It is a simple matter to prove that Revelation 20 follows the judgment of the beast and throwing of the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, and this has been done over and over by myself and the other PreMils who have posted in this thread.

What you assert is not true, and in this thread it has already been proved that your assertion is false. I'm not going to repeat my posts, David PT's posts, and ewqr's posts (and the posts of others besides) just because you want to repeat the same old tired assertions again.

Paul reveals the timing of Revelation 20 because the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20, as foretold by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Paul also said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the judgment of the dead occurs in Revelation 11:18, and also at the end of chapter 20.

You have already been given the reasons why the end Revelation 20 is not speaking about the time of Christ's appearance at the end of the age. I will do this one more time, briefly. Next time you bring up the same tired old argument again, I will ignore your post.

2 Thess 1:6-10
"since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,
and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.

2 Thess 1:6-10 does not state that the everlasting destruction prophesied by Paul for those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ will follow immediately after Christ's return. You conveniently ignore the fact that Revelation 20 states that those who had been martyred for their witness to Christ and had gained victory over the beast and its image and had not received its mark or the number of its name, will live again and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and the second death will have no power over them.

Death and hades will deliver up the souls in them at the close of the literal thousand years. Death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life at that point, will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Please answer these questions:

1. What is the second death?
2. When, according to Revelation 20 without the addition of Amil theology, does the second death occur?

3. Also please answer my Post #1285, which was an answer to your post but which you have simply ignored, changed the subject, and posted something else (which is another annoying habit of yours: Posting something, receiving an answer to what you were saying in your post, then just ignoring the answer and changing the subject, posting something else, many times simply re-posting the same old tired arguments you already posted multiple times, after having copied and pasted from your treasure house of your stored posts.

I'm not being nasty by pointing this out to you, as yourself and others are so keen to accuse me of. False accusations of nastiness are nasty. Some cry babies just don't like the fact that their subtle verbal bullying is employed in replies to them in the same way they employ it when they post.

PS: Enjoy your Sunday.

 

[Timtofly]

Most Amils, and even some Premils, propose that Abaddon is meaning satan. I don't know if it is meaning him or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But even it was, the falling star in verse 1 could simply be meaning this same king of the pit, since it's not required that the king does have to be inside of the pit in order to be the king of it. And if the king of the pit is satan, and that this falling star is the king of the pit, we at least have now identified who the falling star is, not to mention, this would also undeniably prove Premil in the process.

After the 6th seal there is no more separation of the physical from the spiritual or literal from the figurative. The 6th seal is the rolling back of the veil from all humanity. Choice to accept Christ is eternally removed, because it is no longer a mystery and the church is completed and glorified. That is what most deny. Any thing after that is only literal. Now to explain that to first century humanity is a whole different ball game.

To attempt to explain it to those dogmatic in their theology takes the Holy Spirit. Why any one interprets the trumpets and anything after as history repeating itself is beyond me. We know the angels were locked up tight since the Flood. Satan was not, unless Job lived before the Flood. How did Job's story bypass Moses and the Torah?

Why is Satan deceiving the nations a stumbling block to the spread of the Gospel? Is that the only point Amil are stuck on? The church is the light of the world. Satan is not the dark cloud eclipsing that light. The only act of the Adversary is to inform God how great the church is at being a harlot. It is not pointing out how well the gospel is being spread, and what can I be allowed to do to deceive the nations.

So as the Adversary why does Satan deceive the nations as if it does not matter to God one way or the other? Satan is not the Adversary of lost people. They are lost with or without his influence. He accomplished that in the Garden with Eve. Any and all of Eve's seed has power over Satan. Genesis 3:15 indicates this strongly. Satan and humanity has been a constant give and take since then. It was not resolved at the Cross. There is one main reason. Satan is not dead. Why should any have to prove Satan is dead? Satan is the Adversarial lawyer, and does not need representation. Only humanity needs representation. To stop Satan at the Cross is not the binding and it was definitely not the death of Satan. If Satan was stopped at the Cross, Satan would be dead.

The crushing of Satan's head has not been realized. Any one in Christ can bind Satan at any moment and render Satan useless. That is not going to stop Satan from the rest of humanity. That would be a personal victory. If Christ did it at the Cross it would not have been to stop Satan from deceiving us. That is why there is no Scripture to that effect. If Satan was bound during the 3.5 years of Jesus' earthly ministry, that is one thing. It still would have been at the beginning of, not the end of. Jesus would have bound Satan first before doing anything on earth after His baptism. The other thing is that Jesus being our advocate is an ongoing condition not a single moment on the Cross. Revelation 12:10
"because the Accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them day and night before God,
has been thrown out!"

It makes no sense that before the Cross, Satan accused us day and night with no advocate present. After the Cross Jesus was constantly our advocate with no Adversary present. At the Cross God only sees us perfect in Christ. Who keeps pointing out our faults for Jesus to be our advocate? Is that day and night accusation nonexistent?

When John says Satan will be bound for 1000 years it can only be literal. Satan has been exposed. No where in history has God pointed out and exposed Satan to the world. During the tribulation all humanity will be aware of the spiritual and physical as one. No more will humanity be deceived because of spiritual blindness. On the other hand, at the end of the 1000 years, it will be a different deception. It will be like Eve who knew God, and Satan convincing many that He has a "better" plan. A plan to be burned up with fire. And many accept that plan all the way to the bank of the lake of fire.

 

[Zao is life]

wrongly clicked Reply

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


Rev 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.


Rev 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.


Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Who opened the pit 1000 years ago?

 

[Timtofly]

I agree, but the question is, per Revelation 20:1, at that particular time is the key used to both unlock and lock the pit back up, or is the key only used to lock it back up, thus it was already open when the angel came down? If the latter, it seems to me that Revelation 9 would be explaining why it was already open when the angel came down, thus showing that Revelation 9 chronologically precedes Revelation 20:1.

After all, in chapter 9 we do not see anyone ever closing it back up, not until we get to ch 20. In ch 20 though, we for sure see someone closing it up. This is sorta like, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Revelation 9 in the 5th Trumpet says it was opened. Why would you open up an already opened pit? Those inside were not outside prior to the 5th Trumpet.

It is not an egg that comes first. Satan was created before the pit was prepared. Only God can lock Satan into his own house, even if an angel physically does it. Only the 7th Trumpet can knock Satan out of heaven. How can the 5th one release him? Some of this recap nonsense has to be read in reverse order as well. Should we start at the 7th Trumpet and view the events as ending at the 1st Trumpet? Was Satan cast out in the 7th and bound and loosed by the 5th Trumpet in reverse order?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As to me, I honestly don't know if the pit is locked or already opened when an angel comes down from heaven, having the key to the pit. I was only suggesting that if for some reason the pit was already opened at the time, thus the key is only used to lock the pit back up, Revelation 9:1 would then explain how the pit would have already been opened, in a scenario such as that.

Do you believe that the locusts and Abaddon are the only ones in the abyss/pit when it's opened in Rev 9:1? Your answer to that question is how to determine whether or not the abyss/pit would need to be shut and locked again after they are let out.

When trying to answer that question, keep in mind that it talks about the beast being in the abyss/pit as well. Do you believe the beast will have ascended from the pit before Rev 9:1 or after?

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

If you think the beast comes out of the abyss/pit after Rev 9:1 occurs then that would mean the pit would have to be shut and locked after Rev 9:1-3 occurs in order to not let the beast out of the pit at that time. Or do you think the beast comes out of the pit at the same time the locusts and Abaddon do?

To me it doesn't make sense that the pit is not literal. Take the locusts in Revelation 9, for example. They are in this same pit, but if the pit is not literal, what point is being made while the locusts are locked up inside?

I believe in his visions that John saw a star and a physical abyss/pit where a physical dragon and physical beast each with seven heads and ten horns and locusts could be cast into or come out of. But none of those things are real. Instead, they symbolize real things such as angels and kingdoms.

This is something that premils have so much trouble grasping because of their tendency to interpret things literally. They rely on the unwise method of interpreting scripture that says we must interpret things literally unless they are obviously symbolic. That is a very bad method of interpreting a book like Revelation. For that book and a book like Daniel, it should be the other way around. Assume symbolism unless it's obviously literal.

Premils often interpret symbolic things in a literal way and it often leads to strange conclusions. This approach is why you can't recognize that Rev 11:15-18 says that judgement day (same as Rev 20:11-15) arrives right after the sounding of the seventh trumpet because you believe Rev 11:19 is speaking of a literal earthquake and hailstorm. So, you assume that the judgment can't be happening at that point since stuff is still happening on earth like earthquakes and hailstorms. Despite the fact that the setting of Rev 11:19 is heaven ("Then God's temple in heaven was opened....") and not earth. An earthquake and hailstorm in heaven? Really?

Interpreting symbolic language literally leads to some crazy scenarios like that. And what about Rev 6:12-17? If you interpret that all literally then you have people somehow surviving stars falling to the earth even though if that happened literally the earth would be completely annihilated.

The physical things John saw in his visions all symbolize real things (the star symbolizes an angel, the heads symbolize kingdoms, the horns symbolize kings, the dragon symbolizes Satan, etc.). In the case of the dragon we know it symbolizes Satan.

Okay, back to Revelation 9. You acknowledge that the star John saw is not a literal star, but symbolically represents an angel, right? So, if the star opening the pit is not literal then how could the pit itself that John saw be a literal physical pit where angels can be confined? The pit is a place where a dragon, beast (Rev 17:8) and locusts are. We all know the dragon, beast and locusts are not literal but symbolize spiritual things, so why not the pit as well? Can spiritual beings be confined to a literal, physical pit? No. So, it doesn't make sense to interpret the binding of spiritual beings in a literal, physical sense.

Keep in mind that Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 tell us that the fallen angels have been bound in "everlasting chains" reserved for judgment for a long time already. But, that has not prevented them from doing anything at all as if they were literally chained up in a dungeon.

We know from the text, that until the pit is opened, they are not able to torment men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Does this mean they are able to do other stuff to men while locked up in the pit, just not that in particular?

Yes, of course. Why not? As long as you understand that them being symbolically or spiritually locked up in the pit has nothing to do with them being completely confined and unable to do anything then it's easy to understand that they are only bound from doing certain things rather than being bound from doing anything at all. That is how amils understand the binding of Satan as well.

Isn't that how Amils argue when satan is in the pit, it's not that he can do nothing at all, he just can't prevent Gentiles from being deceived like they were deceived in OT times, yet he can still do other things, such as actively persecute saints while in the pit?

Looks like I anticipated your question beforehand. As you can see from what I just said before this, my answer is yes.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Unless I missed it somewhere prior to this verse in ch 9, the text does not indicate one way or the other if the king of the pit was locked up with the locusts at the time. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I just don't know, I don't know how anyone can know for certain.

We can know very easily. He is called "the angel of the abyss/bottomless pit". Why would the angel of the pit not be in the pit? If he wasn't in the pit, then would it make sense for him to be called the angel of the pit? He is also said to be the king of the locusts. Would the king of the locusts not even be where the locusts are? If not, then how could he be their king?

Another question is, if you believe the locusts symbolically represent fallen angels (since their king is the angel of the abyss, how could they not be?) then who exactly is their king? He's given the Hebrew name Abaddon (Greek: Apollyon) which means "Destroyer", but is it possible that he goes by other names as well? Such as Satan?

We know Satan has other names or titles like "the devil", Lucifer and Beelzebub. So, couldn't Abaddon be another one of his names? I believe so. Who else is king of the fallen angels besides Satan? We know Satan is the king of all fallen angels because Revelation 12:9 and Matthew 25:41 both say that the fallen angels are "his angels".

So, if Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan, that means Satan was bound in the pit sometime in the past before the 5th trumpet sounds (such as around 30 AD or so) and then let loose when the fifth trumpet sounds.

Most Amils, and even some Premils, propose that Abaddon is meaning satan. I don't know if it is meaning him or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But even it was, the falling star in verse 1 could simply be meaning this same king of the pit, since it's not required that the king does have to be inside of the pit in order to be the king of it.

Once again it looks like I anticipated what you were going to say before you said it. Are you that predictable? I'm kidding. I believe what you're saying here is faulty logic and I already explained why above.

And if the king of the pit is satan, and that this falling star is the king of the pit, we at least have now identified who the falling star is, not to mention, this would also undeniably prove Premil in the process.

The star (angel) cannot possibly be Satan for two reasons. The first reason is that it indicates that the star falls from heaven to earth. Remember, we're talking about a symbolic star falling to earth here, so there's no basis for interpreting that as a fallen angel. It's just talking about an angel descending from heaven.

That can't be Satan because Satan was kicked out of heaven long ago when Jesus ascended to heaven (Rev 12:5-9). It makes a lot of sense that once Jesus ascended to heaven then there was no place for Satan to be there anymore. Anyone who thinks Satan still has access to heaven is very sadly mistaken.

The second reason it can't be Satan is because in Rev 20:1, it's an angel coming down from heaven to cast the dragon, Satan, into the pit. That's clearly one of God's angels and not a fallen angel. So, why would the angel in Rev 9:1 who opens the pit not also be one of God's angels?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree, but the question is, per Revelation 20:1, at that particular time is the key used to both unlock and lock the pit back up, or is the key only used to lock it back up, thus it was already open when the angel came down? If the latter, it seems to me that Revelation 9 would be explaining why it was already open when the angel came down, thus showing that Revelation 9 chronologically precedes Revelation 20:1.

After all, in chapter 9 we do not see anyone ever closing it back up, not until we get to ch 20. In ch 20 though, we for sure see someone closing it up. This is sorta like, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

What you're saying would be true IF premil was true, but it does not disprove amil, in case you were thinking that it did (I'm not sure if you were).

From the amil point of view the pit was locked after Satan was thrown in (Rev 20:3) long ago.

Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

And then it will be opened again at the 5th trumpet (Rev 9) to let him loose along with his angels.

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Whether or not you see it as a reasonable answer, the fact of the matter is that the pit was locked thousands of years before the time of Christ. Peter and Jude speak about angels being bound in a time which was thousands of years before Peter and Jude's day. The context of Peter and Jude's statements are ancient.

Peter and Jude both indicated that the fallen angels were bound in everlasting chains in darkness reserved for judgment day and judgment day has not yet occurred. So, did their binding prevent them from doing anything at all? Clearly not, as we know fallen angels have been active ever since then and scripture says our battle is against them rather than flesh and blood (Eph 6). So, that should tell you that the binding of spiritual beings in chains, including Satan, should not be taken literally to mean that they are completely incapacitated.

 

[BABerean2]

You missed the fact that Satan has not been destroyed by being thrown into into the lake of fire yet - and though he is defeated and his power over death destroyed, neither Satan nor death and hades are in the lake of fire yet:

1 Cor 15:25-26
for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death.

When does death die? When is the curse removed?


In the passage below Christ remains in heaven until the restitution of all things. What is the restitution of all things? Does it include the removal of the curse?
The curse is not removed 1,000 years after His return.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


In the passage below death is destroyed at His "coming", instead of 1,000 years later.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Death dies at the last trumpet in the passage below.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.



The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet, instead of for 1,000 years. The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others in found in the passage below. This passage is ignored by most who want to believe the book is in chronological order.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[claninja]

I personally equate the loosing with the time Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2 when a mass falling away from the faith occurs and wickedness that was previously restrained (to an extent) will no longer be restrained.

And that's fine. But to be clear 1.) the falling away was already occurring in the first century, as stated by John, that's how they knew it was the "last hour" (1 john 2:18-19), and it was one of the signs preceding the temple destruction (matthew 24:10) and 2.) it wasn't the lawlessness or satan that was being restrained, for it and he was already at work in the 1st century. what was being restrained was the man of sin (2 thessalonians 2:7).

Like premils, you seem to think the binding of Satan has to do with him being completely unable to deceive or do anything.

Incorrect. I believe the binding of satan was fulfilled at the first advent through Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension.

1.) This resulted in satan being bound so that Christ could plunder the house.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

2.) This resulted in the works of the devil being destroyed

hebrews 2:14-15 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

3.) This resulted in the first resurrection

colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

4.) This resulted in satan being no longer able to accuse the elect, as the righteous requirements of God are now met in His church through Christ Jesus.

romans 8:3-4 He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Revelation 12:10-11 Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—
he who accuses them day and night before our God.They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

I believe it has to do with how he was able to keep the Gentiles in almost complete spiritual darkness in OT times and then that changed in NT times while the gospel has spread throughout the world.

I agree.

I completely disagree with you on this. That temple was no longer "the temple of God" once Christ died on the cross. Paul would never have referred to that temple as the temple of God at the time he wrote 2 Thessalonians. He only referred to the bodies of believers and the corporate body of Christ as being the temple of God.

Do you know why God split the temple veil/curtain in two when Christ died? To show that it was no longer the temple of God because of Jesus being rejected by the Jews (for the most part). God would no longer be meeting with man at a physical temple but would instead be dwelling in the hearts of those who believed in His Son. Jesus Himself is the chief cornerstone of the temple of God, which is the church.

One other thing. What about what Paul said here:

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

How does this have anything to do with what happened around 70 AD? In what way were any believers gathered to Christ at that time?

I believe verse 1 is clearly referring to what Paul had previously written to them about in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6. Do you also believe that 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 was fulfilled in 70 AD? If so, how can that be true?

Remember, I am a partial preterist who believes Jesus came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.


Therefore, I believe the physical temple destruction in 66-70 is intimately tied to the coming of the son of man in judgment on Israel at the end of the age. Based on the viewing the following accounts, the "signs that they are about to be fulfilled/take place" = "sign of the your coming and the end of the age".

Mark 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Matthew 24:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Lue 21:7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”



Linking Paul's passages to the olivet discourse:

1.) the parousia and gathering:
2 thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers,

Matthew 24:30-31 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2.) This parousia and gathering, according to Paul would not occur until after the falling away and man of sin being revealed. I associate these signs with the destruction of the temple in 66-70ad, because Jesus does.

2 thessalonians 2:3 9-11 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the falling away comes first, and the man of lawlessnessb is revealed, the son of destruction. he coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matthew 24:9-11 Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

3.) the man of sin would set himself in the temple, but would be destroyed at the parousia of Christ. According to the olivet discourse, the temple destruction occurs at the end of the age at the coming of the son of man.

2 thessalonians 2:4,8 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming

matthew 24:2-3 “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4.) this would happen in the first century generation

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Of course, but what I believe is that he was bound from preventing the gospel from spreading throughout the world and bound from uniting unbelievers together as a whole against the body of Christ in a unified effort to the destroy the church.

So then you believe this binding will one day end and satan will be able to destroy the church?

I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be reasonable. While I don't believe the 1,000 years is literally 1,000 years, I can't go along with the idea that it's not an actual time period at all.

No need to be sorry. I also struggle with the traditional amil belief, because it does not line up with the gospel and epistolic narrative. But such is the difficulty in interpreting symbolic and apocalyptic language.

Our lives don't literally vanish quickly, though. The average life span used to be hundreds of years, then 120. Now it's around 75 or so. So, my point is that it's a term used in a relative sense, not literal. And James 4:14 fits that idea.

You saw that it was used when Jesus said many are called but few (oligos) are chosen, right? And that is in relation to salvation, wouldn't you agree? Surely, millions of people have been chosen for salvation, wouldn't you agree? Are millions a small number?

So, I stick by my assertion that the word refers to a relatively small and limited number, but not necessarily a literally small number just as in the case of "few" being chosen. That is how I see it used in scripture.

I would argue it always literally means "small", "few", "short". It never means "long".

In the context of all of creation, our lives are literally like mist only lasting a little while and then vanishing. The literal definition of oligos never means long.

So then you believe "few" means the exact same as "many" in that passage?

Good to know. Our disagreement is not something to make a huge deal about since we agree on the most important things.

Amen to that

 

[Timtofly]

Interpreting symbolic language literally leads to some crazy scenarios like that. And what about Rev 6:12-17? If you interpret that all literally then you have people somehow surviving stars falling to the earth even though if that happened literally the earth would be completely annihilated.

The stars in the sky are angels. If you think they are large balls of gasses, you think Satan's deception is literal. Satan has convinced the world this universe is 14 billion years in "size". That is a lie. There is no universe like that. The 6th seal literally removes this delusion like a theater screen rolling up and showing humanity the spiritual reality behind the screen.

The angels come to earth at the 6th seal. We can see all that is claimed to be spiritual as God actually physically created the heavens in Genesis 1. Adam's spiritual blindness and death will be reversed. That is why the abyss is opened. We can now see Satan's home and the "elevator" that leads to what is under the earth.

John did not write to confuse. He wrote using the symbolism that those in the 1st century understood. All that was lost to us, because the harlot church kept the historical record hidden so Satan could deceive the whole world with his knowledge, we call science.

 

[Timtofly]

Peter and Jude both indicated that the fallen angels were bound in everlasting chains in darkness reserved for judgment day and judgment day has not yet occurred. So, did their binding prevent them from doing anything at all? Clearly not, as we know fallen angels have been active ever since then and scripture says our battle is against them rather than flesh and blood (Eph 6). So, that should tell you that the binding of spiritual beings in chains, including Satan, should not be taken literally to mean that they are completely incapacitated.

Sorry but we do not war against angels. That is a flimsy interpretation. They are locked up under the earth. It says, high places. They are not in the heavens, so not spiritual, not demonic. Paul claims it is mental control over human rulers who have listened to Satan. The high places are kingdoms and empires and the leaders of those nations. It is the high places of governmental control. In the US it is currently called "draining the swamp". I think many senators and representatives in Washington would argue with you they are NOT the fallen angels or even possessed by demons. One would be hard pressed to prove that point. It is the mind set and the wickedness in one's heart that they call good and ethical and human rights, when in reality it is directly in opposition to God and God's creation. Humans do not have the right to violate God's Word. We do not wrestle the humans.

In chat forums we are not supposed to attach the poster. We are wrestling with their ideology. That is what Paul is claiming. I am sure all sides of eschatology think they are correct, when none are 100% right. One side has some truth the other misses, and it is not the truth that is argued against. It is the points each side is wrong about.