Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[Mark Quayle]

God's power to control our flesh (grace) frees up the soul to make a choice. For its our flesh that enslaves the soul. Our depravity stems from our souls being stuck in a defective biological vehicle that our soul needs to navigate around in the material created world.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh;
for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For
the good that I want (his soul), I do not do, but I practice the very
evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want,
I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me." Rom 7:18-20​

As Paul tells us his depravity was not to be found in his soul. Its to be found in his flesh. Flesh that dominated his soul's desire to do what is good.

Our fallen defective flesh will enslave our soul unless God's grace power intervenes to free the soul from the effects of the flesh.

That is why we need to be saved by grace! For without our flesh being taken under control by the Holy Spirit? Our soul could never choose for the "faith" being presented to us by means of the Word of God.

grace and peace

You have a point. However, one might conclude from your narrative that once freed of the flesh by death, all are pure. Such is not the teaching of scripture --some are raised to life, others, not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God causes us to be made able to make choices. That is what grace does for us.

Did the Lord hard wire Adam to name the animals as Adam had done? God willed that Adam freely name them as Adam chose to.

Your first sentence, "God causes us to be made able to make choices. That is what grace does for us." relates to my OP --that the Reformers originally taught against Free Will of the unbelievers, slaves to sin. Grace frees us to be able to make choices for God.

Your second seems to imply (not sure what you are saying) that God had no idea what Adam would name them? I agree that Adam named them as he chose to. Who says otherwise?

Again, the notion that all things being predetermined implies choices are not real, depends on autonomy rather than will, being the cause of choices. God does not allow for autonomy, nor does logic, nor does Scripture. But will --oh my yes, certainly!

 

[renniks]

You are wrong again. I have not contradicted myself. God causing all things does NOT mean choices are not choices at all. ONCE AGAIN, if our will strives against our creator, it doesn't matter WHY our will does so --it does so. We DO sin against God, and he will have justice.

Let me simplify it for you: if my will strives against God, in your system it is only because God caused me to strive against him. Of course it matters why! If I have no control over my will how can I be responsible for it? No I can't sin against God in your system. God can only make me sin against him. It's all like one long play, and we are just actors, playing our prescripted plots, because we can do nothing else. Why would anyone embrace such an ugly view of reality?

 

[renniks]

amazes me that you continue to demand self-determination. What kind of status do you ascribe to humanity, that we are capable of contending (thought yes, indeed we try) against God, that he should be mindful of your obstruction? Your obstruction, like Satan's plays right into God's hand. Don't be fooled. We can do nothing apart from Christ.

Lol, and yet you just you just said in your previous paragraph that we do contend against God. Please make up your mind!
Again with the misuse of scripture, the previous verse says we must remain in the vine. Not that he caused us to remain. No we can not produce fruit unless we choose to remain in him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ok, I'll play. How have I done that? Kindly explain.

You wrote, "How would I know if I am of the hand, knee, ear or what? That is God's purview. But I know I am the only one he has selected for my particular part, because he will not fail to accomplish what he has set out to do. Criteria? How would I know?"

It could hardly be clearer from your response that you do not know. Or do you? If i am mistaken, please tell me how you actually do know.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let me simplify it for you: if my will strives against God, in your system it is only because God caused me to strive against him. Of course it matters why! If I have no control over my will how can I be responsible for it? No I can't sin against God in your system. God can only make me sin against him. It's all like one long play, and we are just actors, playing our prescripted plots, because we can do nothing else. Why would anyone embrace such an ugly view of reality?

ONLY because God caused me to. Blaming God again? He did not tempt you.

I would like to see your line of logic showing how for at least one thing, God is not ultimately the original cause. You limit God.

You have always had some control over your will. This does not imply autonomy. You, as a slave to sin, are without excuse. (That is established, and regardless of what the reason is, whether you are right about autonomy or not, are without excuse. You, as a believer, redeemed, regenerated, are not a slave to the "old man", still without excuse when you sin. That much, I expect you can agree with).

You also have some degree of control over your decisions. That I agree with. But your control as fallen, is inimitably going to work in opposition to God, BECAUSE OF YOUR WILL --your bent, your nature.

I don't know if it was you who said, that logically, if your nature is bound to cause you to sin as fallen, then it will also cause you to be sinless as regenerated. That is false. The "old man" still is trying to regain his control, and must be put to death constantly.

I expect you have seen plenty of scripture describing what happens before regeneration, particularly those that say outright. eg. Romans 8:7.8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." Are not the unregenerated in the realm of the flesh? Is not the mind of the unregenerated governed by the flesh? CAUSED. Yet without excuse.

“I assure you that everyone who sins (note continuous action; some say, "has the habit of sinning") is a slave to sin. ... sure, I tell you, everyone who sins is the servant of sin because sin has a hold on him." John 8:34

 

[Mark Quayle]

You wrote, "How would I know if I am of the hand, knee, ear or what? That is God's purview. But I know I am the only one he has selected for my particular part, because he will not fail to accomplish what he has set out to do. Criteria? How would I know?"

It could hardly be clearer from your response that you do not know. Or do you? If i am mistaken, please tell me how you actually do know.

Do not know what? I was, and still am, referring to your term, "criteria". If the term applies, I do not know, except perhaps to say, he chooses according to his plan. I fit it perfectly, not by my autonomy, but by his.

Do you equate criteria (which I do not know, other than his use for me) with his plan (which I know only a little about, because he has told us in Scripture)? If they are one and the same (which they are not) then yes, I know a little about the criteria. I don't even know why we are arguing about the term. If "criteria" applies, he causes me to become whatever he planned for me to become. And I thank him for that.

Your constant responses and insistence on autonomy lead me to think you still want to be SOMEBODY, quite apart from God's control --indeed, quite apart from God having anything to do with it other than perhaps to create a blank slate with an autonomous will. So it becomes apparent that you want a piece of the credit for your own salvation. Again, it is ludicrous to hinge your eternal destiny on your fallen ability to do what God specifically denies you are capable of doing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lol, and yet you just you just said in your previous paragraph that we do contend against God. Please make up your mind!
Again with the misuse of scripture, the previous verse says we must remain in the vine. Not that he caused us to remain. No we can not produce fruit unless we choose to remain in him.

Oh, we contend alright. But our contending has to do with motive, not ability. We can't make God do anything. Our contending is inconsequential as far as his plan. He USES IT; He is not obstructed by it.

But as far as his command, oh yes, we contend, and obstruct. But he is not set back. For the sake of his Elect, he is injured, most certainly, but not held back. God does not consult us for his decisions, made from the foundation of the world.

 

[renniks]

ONLY because God caused me to. Blaming God again? He did not tempt you.

I would like to see your line of logic showing how for at least one thing, God is not ultimately the original cause. You limit God.

You have always had some control over your will. This does not imply autonomy. You, as a slave to sin, are without excuse. (That is established, and regardless of what the reason is, whether you are right about autonomy or not, are without excuse. You, as a believer, redeemed, regenerated, are not a slave to the "old man", still without excuse when you sin. That much, I expect you can agree with).

You also have some degree of control over your decisions. That I agree with. But your control as fallen, is inimitably going to work in opposition to God, BECAUSE OF YOUR WILL --your bent, your nature.

I don't know if it was you who said, that logically, if your nature is bound to cause you to sin as fallen, then it will also cause you to be sinless as regenerated. That is false. The "old man" still is trying to regain his control, and must be put to death constantly.

I expect you have seen plenty of scripture describing what happens before regeneration, particularly those that say outright. eg. Romans 8:7.8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." Are not the unregenerated in the realm of the flesh? Is not the mind of the unregenerated governed by the flesh? CAUSED. Yet without excuse.

“I assure you that everyone who sins (note continuous action; some say, "has the habit of sinning") is a slave to sin. ... sure, I tell you, everyone who sins is the servant of sin because sin has a hold on him." John 8:34

Where did I say God wasn't the first cause? What does that have to do with whether he created autonomous creatures or not?
No, you limit God by requiring him to predetermine everything in order to get his way in anything.
And then you bounce back to having control of my will, and not having any freedom whatsoever, at the same time. Same old illogical, impossible contradiction.
As a believer, I am without excuse when I sin because God has always provided another way. Think about that for a moment. It's impossible in a deterministic universe. At best, you could say, that possibility existed only in God's mind and could never be actualized because he chose every movement of every atom for all eternity, so he certainly chose all my sins to irresistibly happen. So much for not being willing that none should perish! In your system he causes all the perishing irresistibly.

Yes, if slavery to sin means that a nonbeliever can't abstain from sin, it must mean that a slave to Christ can not sin. Or vice versa.

"Are not the unregenerated in the realm of the flesh? Is not the mind of the unregenerated governed by the flesh? CAUSED. Yet without excuse."

But not caused by God. Where does it say God causes one to be among the unregenerated or causes them to sin?
The verse you quoted says anyone who sins is a slave to sin. The verse implies one can choose not to sin. The whole reason for Jesus to make this statement is to encourage people not to be a slave to sin and a son of Satan. Why else would he say this? No determinism there.

 

[renniks]

Oh, we contend alright. But our contending has to do with motive, not ability. We can't make God do anything. Our contending is inconsequential as far as his plan. He USES IT; He is not obstructed by it.

But as far as his command, oh yes, we contend, and obstruct. But he is not set back. For the sake of his Elect, he is injured, most certainly, but not held back. God does not consult us for his decisions, made from the foundation of the world.

This might make some sense if you didn't believe that our every decision was chosen by God. And yet you want to tell me it hurts God for us to do what he caused us to do. I think I have a headache...

 

[bling]

"First Cause generating an infinite number of first causes" is frankly nonsense, logically. Sorry, but yeah. So is your conclusion from “Scientist and atheist and otherwise” see the need for a “first uncaused, causer” and have everything naturally falling in place afterwards, thus needing no more “first cause”. Thus needing no more first cause? What do you mean by "needing"? That they no more need to consider God than that? or that logically, once the motor has been cranked, it no long needs a starter? I don't get what you are saying, or if I do, it is nonsense.

I did not say: "First Cause generating an infinite number of first causes", please quote what I said correctly which is: “the first causer” (who is God) not only was the first cause for the start of the universe, but went on to continue to cause stuff to happen. Science assumes everything happens naturally, with every effect caused by a previous cause and that effect generating the next cause, so it all goes back to something called the first cause, with everything afterwards naturally happening as the result of this first cause. Science only deals with natural occurrences which follow your, “law of causality” which says nothing of God.

The “law of causality” does not explain anything about a first cause, so once you interject God into the equation you leave science. For science to have a “first cause”, they have to (they need to) interject a god or say there was no first cause and everything goes back infinitely. The “first cause” is outside of science, but for Christians there need not be just one first cause, but a causer of lots of stuff existing outside of the natural world.

Do you believe God does have free will and is a first causer?

If God does have this truly autonomous free will and is involved with the earth constantly, then everything He does in the world, is not fully explained by natural causes, which resulted for some singular cause in the beginning. Is God not the causer of whatever He decides to do?

 

[GenemZ]

You have a point. However, one might conclude from your narrative that once freed of the flesh by death, all are pure. Such is not the teaching of scripture --some are raised to life, others, not.

What you described is not what constitutes committing sin. What it is, is the one thing Jesus could not die for.

Jesus would have had to reject Himself in trying to do so. What you described ( that once freed of the flesh by death, all are pure.) is what makes "evil" not the same thing as sin. Evil is a wrong choice made from a free state of soul.

After all, those who are freed while under the grace given to believe truth? And, reject that truth? Since the sin nature was not involved? Its called "evil." That is why it does not say Jesus died for the evil in mankind.

Lucifer fell from a state of perfection. Lucifer had no fallen nature when he chose to reject God. Therefore, such an act was "evil." As a result of choosing to think "evil?" Lucifer developed an equivalent to a sin nature. Just like Adam developed a sin nature after he fell.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. Jesus did not die for evil. Its evil that causes rational beings to go to the Lake of Fire. Not their sins. All sins were paid for.

Nobody's sins will be mentioned at the final judgment. Instead, every unbeliever will be judged according to their works.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were
opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead
were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to
their works." Rev 20:12​

grace and peace

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do not know what? I was, and still am, referring to your term, "criteria". If the term applies, I do not know, except perhaps to say, he chooses according to his plan. I fit it perfectly, not by my autonomy, but by his.

Do you equate criteria (which I do not know, other than his use for me) with his plan (which I know only a little about, because he has told us in Scripture)? If they are one and the same (which they are not) then yes, I know a little about the criteria. I don't even know why we are arguing about the term. If "criteria" applies, he causes me to become whatever he planned for me to become. And I thank him for that.

Your constant responses and insistence on autonomy lead me to think you still want to be SOMEBODY, quite apart from God's control --indeed, quite apart from God having anything to do with it other than perhaps to create a blank slate with an autonomous will. So it becomes apparent that you want a piece of the credit for your own salvation. Again, it is ludicrous to hinge your eternal destiny on your fallen ability to do what God specifically denies you are capable of doing.

Very well. Our discussion has been dragged out far enough. The fact remains that you do not know any criteria nor are you capable of providing any. I am perfectly willing to accept your position, but apparently you are not. Why is that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You say, "Do you believe it is God's will for people to sin?" Again, what do you mean by God's will? Like the OP says, it's useful to define terms. I'm pretty sure you are intelligent enough to see the difference between "God's plan" (hidden will) and "God's command" (revealed will). What would make you think they are one and the same, considering that his command is not always followed --the fact that (in your theology) God must wait for man to obey before God can do what he planned? Do you honestly think man can change what God planned from the very beginning? Extrapolating your thinking: Not only does God not know what any one person will decide, he didn't know, when he created all things, that Lucifer would revolt. If he did know, then why did he go ahead and create anyway? (I say this, because if he did know, but created anyway, logically he caused (deistically, at the very least) it to happen this way, too). You proffer a very weak god.

You are actually speaking against the GOD of the Bible by implying that God creating free willed beings makes Him weak. God created a being who had a choice to choose either good or bad equally, and they simply chose the wrong path. God creating them still with God knowing their outcome is not God forcing them to be that way or desiring for them to choose the wrong path. The choice was always in the hands of the one in whom God created. Again, why would God get upset at those who sin? The god of Calvinism doesn't make any sense. He is like an angry little child smashing clay figurines for no real rhyme or reason.

You say that in Calvinism, God "created some simply to be punished for being sinful." Wrong again. That is not what Calvinism says. Read Romans 9:22 & 23 for the reason God created them --a reason, if not the only reason. (Logically there are other reasons, too, having to do with cause and effect and the construction of the Body of Christ) --

Then you don't believe in UNconditional Election. Some are elected based on NO conditions. That is what the word UN means in Unconditional Election. In Calvinism: Some are elected based on no conditions to be saved. The rest are elected by God based on no conditions to reprobation. In Calvinism: God wants some to be good, and some to be bad. In Calvinism: It is His sovereign will that some must sin as their only choice. That is why Calvinism is not only unbiblical, but immoral. God is no longer good if He forces some to sin as their only choice but to torment them for all time beyond something that is outside of their control. So in Calvinism: One must believe God elects those to sin as their only choice, and then He torments them. That does not sound like the God of the Bible.

You assume that God's command implies the ability to obey --it does not. Like the rule: if one never sinned he needs no savior, the fact is that their will is depraved --it contends against God, and has no inclination to do otherwise-- they cannot because they will not, do not, and their every pretension of doing so is only compliance --not obedience. If God created some for one purpose and others for another purpose, what is that to you? Who are you to judge the goodness of God?

The problem is that the god of Calvinism cannot be seen in the Bible. So your questions are simply loaded and they do not exist. For your imagining of God does not exist. Have you even read the story of Jonah before? That story (among many others) in the Bible totally destroys Calvinism. Again, if you were careful to read the story in the King James Bible you will see that Jonah had warned the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in 40 days. But that did not happen because the Ninevites repented. They cried out unto God and they forsaken their evil ways, and God when He seen that they forsaken their wickedness, He then turned in not bringing wrath upon them. So it was the Ninevites and not God who was determining their own salvation. You cannot read Calvinism into this aspect of the story. Even if you tried to make it work, it would not seem natural. It would be like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Then again, you must do this because this is what you have been taught and this is what you prefer to see.

Is their sin beyond their control? Of course it is

Then God is electing them to reprobation and He wants them to sin as a part of His will. That is why the god of Calvinism does not exist in the Bible. Just read your Bible a little more closely and ignore the teachings of Calvinism for a while, and you will no longer believe in Calvinism.

 

[FredVB]

What you described is not what constitutes committing sin. What it is, is the one thing Jesus could not die for.

Jesus would have had to reject Himself in trying to do so. What you described ( that once freed of the flesh by death, all are pure.) is what makes "evil" not the same thing as sin. Evil is a wrong choice made from a free state of soul.

After all, those who are freed while under the grace given to believe truth? And, reject that truth? Since the sin nature was not involved? Its called "evil." That is why it does not say Jesus died for the evil in mankind.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. Jesus did not die for evil. Its evil that causes rational beings to go to the Lake of Fire. Not their sins. All sins were paid for.

Nobody's sins will be mentioned at the final judgment. Instead, every unbeliever will be judged according to their works.

That is a strange distinction. Sin is rebellion against God, that is certainly evil, and there is payment for evil, Jesus bore it for all who would come to God in repentance through Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

That is a strange distinction. Sin is rebellion against God, that is certainly evil, and there is payment for evil, Jesus bore it for all who would come to God in repentance through Christ.

It appears you have never been given teaching in detail and have been allowed to presume what you wish. That's OK. Until the truth is presented.

You will not find one passage where it says Jesus died for evil. He can't. For He can not reject Himself!

He was the Word made flesh. To reject the Truth is not simply sin. Though its motivational impulse may have originated from the sin nature. To persist in rejection of Truth is now termed "evil." Deny Christ. Jesus said I AM the Truth! Not that He simply knows Truth.

If we deny Him? He will deny us (of our eternal rewards).

When we sin? Sin simply requires confession by admitting to God you sinned.1 John 1:9
On the other hand...
Evil requires refutation by the Word of God, presented to show the denial and the answer that is correct.
After the refutation is given? Then the one living in evil must "repent." Change his thinking. Repent means "to change one's mind." That's how the Greek speaking world used the word.

My pastor once brilliantly stated to a hushed room...

"Dumb can not get it."

"Stupid will not get it."​

Even the Bible tells us the difference....

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Prov 12:1​

Pretty blunt. The Holy Spirit will be blunt when its called for. Man does not like that because man is what he is. He wants to remain as a pampered little child. God demands that we grow up to become mature adults.

Add to that... The word translated "correction" could be more accurately rendered "reproof."

Reproof is not only a correction. But the Spirit is letting the stubborn one know how displeasing he is to God at the same time.

Some get offended because they fail to realize how God works in disciplining and rearing of His children. Babies get the nursery. Unconditional love. But, after that. God wants His own to become strong and adults in their thinking.

enuf said...

 

[GenemZ]

That is a strange distinction. Sin is rebellion against God, that is certainly evil, and there is payment for evil, Jesus bore it for all who would come to God in repentance through Christ.

There is a distinction.

Sin is disobedience to God's order.

Evil is the reasoning as the means to continue justifying the disobedience.

One is a negative impulse = sin.

One is by false reasoning to enhance and justify the negative impulse = evil.

Homosexual expression is a sin.

Glorifying and justifying homosexuality is evil.

 

[FredVB]

It appears you have never been given teaching in detail and have been allowed to presume what you wish. That's OK. Until the truth is presented.

You will not find one passage where it says Jesus died for evil. He can't. For He can not reject Himself!

He was the Word made flesh. To reject the Truth is not simply sin. Though its motivational impulse may have originated from the sin nature. To persist in rejection of Truth is now termed "evil." Deny Christ. Jesus said I AM the Truth! Not that He simply knows Truth.

If we deny Him? He will deny us (of our eternal rewards).

When we sin? Sin simply requires confession by admitting to God you sinned.1 John 1:9
On the other hand...
Evil requires refutation by the Word of God, presented to show the denial and the answer that is correct.
After the refutation is given? Then the one living in evil must "repent." Change his thinking. Repent means "to change one's mind." That's how the Greek speaking world used the word.

My pastor once brilliantly stated to a hushed room...

"Dumb can not get it."

"Stupid will not get it."​

Even the Bible tells us the difference....

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Prov 12:1​

Pretty blunt. The Holy Spirit will be blunt when its called for. Man does not like that because man is what he is. He wants to remain as a pampered little child. God demands that we grow up to become mature adults.

Add to that... The word translated "correction" could be more accurately rendered "reproof."

Reproof is not only a correction. But the Spirit is letting the stubborn one know how displeasing he is to God at the same time.

Some get offended because they fail to realize how God works in disciplining and rearing of His children. Babies get the nursery. Unconditional love. But, after that. God wants His own to become strong and adults in their thinking.

There is a distinction.

Sin is disobedience to God order.

Evil is the reasoning as the means to continue justifying the disobedience.

One is a negative impulse = sin.

One is by false reasoning to enhance and justify the negative impulse = evil.

Homosexual expression is a sin.

Glorifying homosexuality is evil.

Do you have scripture passages for what you actually teach?

Here are passages I find.

Genesis 50:17, Deuteronomy 9:18, 1 Samuel 12:19, 1 Kings 14:22, 1 Kings 15:26, 1 Kings 15:34, 1 Kings 16:19, 1 Kings 22:52, 2 Kings 13:2, 2 Kings 13:11, 2 Kings 14:24, 2 Kings 15:9, 2 Kings 15:18, 2 Kings 15:24, 2 Kings 15:28, 2 Kings 21:11, 2 Kings 21:16, 1 Chronicles 21:17, Psalms 51:4, Ecclesiastes 8:12, Jeremiah 36:3.

 

[GenemZ]

Do you have scripture passages for what you actually teach?

Here are passages I find.

Genesis 50:17, Deuteronomy 9:18, 1 Samuel 12:19, 1 Kings 14:22, 1 Kings 15:26, 1 Kings 15:34, 1 Kings 16:19, 1 Kings 22:52, 2 Kings 13:2, 2 Kings 13:11, 2 Kings 14:24, 2 Kings 15:9, 2 Kings 15:18, 2 Kings 15:24, 2 Kings 15:28, 2 Kings 21:11, 2 Kings 21:16, 1 Chronicles 21:17, Psalms 51:4, Ecclesiastes 8:12, Jeremiah 36:3.

That would take about 300 hours to properly teach.

If you really want to learn in detail what those passages teach? Really must want to study. Here is a great place to find answers... R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

And, here is a lifetime of information offered free of charge.

https://rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Otherwise? To try to answer here? Would be impossible.

 

[FredVB]

Do you think there are some sins that are evil, and as such they would never be forgiven and those who committed them would not be saved in Christ, with needed repentance not possible, or irrelevant?