Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Spiritual Jew

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He explains why! They have sinned, and willfully refuse to repent. Their will --once again-- THEIR WILL is enslaved to sin. THEY WILL NOT, and so they cannot.
If they cannot repent then why do they not have an excuse for not repenting? Your answer here does not explain that whatsoever. If they couldn't repent, wouldn't that be a great excuse for not repenting? Sure, it would! How could it not? How do you explain this?

Of course that makes no sense, because you have misrepresented what Calvinism teaches. Do you not know what Total Depravity means? As a result of the fall, they WILL not to believe --where do you get that they have no choice in the matter? Calvinism teaches that they CHOOSE to sin, CHOOSE to reject the obvious fact displayed in nature that the Creator does indeed exist, CHOOSE not to submit to him. Total Depravity says they always will not submit, and so they cannot, because they are [willing] slaves to sin. The only way out of their self-willed predicament is the work of God in them.
Could they have chosen not to reject Him and to submit to Him instead? If not, then what kind of "choice" are you talking about? A "choice" with only one option? How does that make any sense?

You answered it yourself. "They knew God" from his general revelation --his invisible qualities, and his eternal power and divine nature known by what is visible --yet they WILL not believe. Again --they are SLAVES to sin.
Then why are they without excuse? Your doctrine has no answer for that. If they can't help but to reject God rather than glorify Him and be thankful to Him then that would be an excuse. But they do not have an excuse. Please address this.

You could answer it yourself, but you won't, because it would destroy your thesis. Calvinism blames THEM. They WILL NOT TO COME. Again, they are slaves to sin. What is so hard to understand about that?
What is hard to understand is how it could be possible for God to offer them salvation if they are not able to accept it? Why would He do that? Is He just cruelly teasing them?

Not to cut you too short, but where does it say they were not born futile, foolish etc? It does say that what they did makes them that --and increasingly so, actually. If scripture says that they have inherited a sinful nature from Adam, then it is so. Can you acknowledge they are born with a sinful nature?
Everyone is born with a sinful nature, but it also says that "they knew God". They BECAME futile and BECAME fools. That clearly implies that they were not already futile in their thinking and not already fools until they decided to rebel against God despite their knowledge of Him instead of glorifying Him and being thankful to Him. That is why they have no excuse. Being inclined to sin does not equate to being incapable of acknowledging God's authority and acknowledging your sin and confessing it to God while asking for Him to have mercy on you.

It does not contradict Calvinism at all. It apparently contradicts your notion of Calvinism, because you have been getting Calvinism wrong consistently.
If you're honest, you get my view wrong as well. And, of course, not all Calvinists believe exactly the same and not all who believe in free will believe everything the same way. I understand that.

Calvinism give nobody any excuse. You do! While you gnaw your fists against Calvinism, go to a Reformed Theology site and do a good study on the meaning of "Total Depravity". You've got it wrong.
Are you unable to explain what you believe yourself? Tell me how Calvinism doesn't give anyone an excuse. If you are unable to repent then that is an excuse to repent. Are you able to lift a million pounds? No, right? Why? Because you weren't made strong enough to do so. Isn't that a valid excuse?

And while you are at it, consider the depth of difference between the rights of Creator and created. Whatever else you may think of Calvinism, and regardless of what Calvinism says, God has the absolute right to do as he pleases with his creation. He owes us NOTHING. We have no right to demand anything --not even that his ways make sense to us. I note, for example, our presupposition that "the command implies the ability to obey." God is not like us.
Show me where I ever said otherwise. I'll wait.

God can do whatever He wants. I'm pretty sure all of us here believe that. But, what does He want to do? That's what we disagree on. I believe scripture very clearly teaches that God wants all people to repent and to be saved and He made a way for that to happen, by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2). But God is love. Love cannot be forced. Love comes from a willing heart.

Of course that makes no sense, because you have misrepresented what Calvinism teaches. Do you not know what Total Depravity means? As a result of the fall, they WILL not to believe --where do you get that they have no choice in the matter?
Could they have made any other "choice"? If not, then what kind of "choice is that? What nonsense.

Calvinism teaches that they CHOOSE to sin, CHOOSE to reject the obvious fact displayed in nature that the Creator does indeed exist, CHOOSE not to submit to him. Total Depravity says they always will not submit, and so they cannot, because they are [willing] slaves to sin. The only way out of their self-willed predicament is the work of God in them.
Then that is not choosing at all because they have no other "choice". Your definition of choosing does not exist. To choose implies that there are at least 2 viable options to choose from with the possibility of choosing either option.

You answered it yourself. "They knew God" from his general revelation --his invisible qualities, and his eternal power and divine nature known by what is visible --yet they WILL not believe. Again --they are SLAVES to sin.
Show me where Paul said that. If they can't help but reject God then that would be an excuse, but Paul said they have no excuse.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If they cannot repent then why do they not have an excuse for not repenting? Your answer here does not explain that whatsoever. If they couldn't repent, wouldn't that be a great excuse for not repenting? Sure, it would! How could it not? How do you explain this?
I just did. They WILL TO not repent.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I don't think it is arbitrary at all. God does everything with purpose.
Why does He create people that He doesn't care about enough to even give them any opportunity to be saved and wants them to be tormented in the lake of fire for eternity? What is the purpose of that?

Why does God get angry at people who have no ability to do anything but reject Him? Why is there even such thing as the wrath of God if everyone does exactly what they were created to do? What is the purpose of His wrath? Please explain how your doctrine can explain that.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Could they have chosen not to reject Him and to submit to Him instead? If not, then what kind of "choice" are you talking about? A "choice" with only one option? How does that make any sense?
As it turns out, none of us can do anything but what God has determined to happen. But we always do it by choice. You have a strange definition of choice for one who believes God is in control of his creation. (Or do you believe he flies by the seat of his pants like we do, but more successfully, since he is smarter than us?)
 
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Mark Quayle

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How does this answer the question? What is there excuse for not repenting? You are so unwilling to give straight answers.
I just agreed they have no excuse. First you say they don't have an excuse, and you ask why I would think they have no excuse, and now you ask what I think their excuse is for not repenting? As Biden says, "C'mon, man!"
 
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Spiritual Jew

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As it turns out, none of us can do anything but what God has determined to happen. But we always do it by choice. You have a strange definition of choice for one who believes God is in control of his creation. (Or do you believe he flies by the seat of his pants like we do, but more successfully, since he is smarter than us?)
Who ever heard of a choice with only one option to "choose" from?

choice
/CHois/
noun
  1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
    "the choice between good and evil"
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I just agreed they have no excuse. First you say they don't have an excuse, and you ask why I would think they have no excuse, and now you ask what I think their excuse is for not repenting? As Biden says, "C'mon, man!"
If their only option is to reject God and they have no ability to repent because God created them that way then how is that not an excuse to reject God? That's what you're not answering. C'mon, man yourself. You're not making any sense.

I can't lift 1000 pounds over my head. I just don't have that ability. So, don't I then have an excuse for not lifting 1000 pounds?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Who ever heard of a choice with only one option to "choose" from?

choice
/CHois/
noun
  1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
    "the choice between good and evil"
Lol, nope. You have multiple choices to choose from. The dictionary even illogically calls them possibilities, assuming that God does not cause everything. What you choose is always what God determines that you will choose. You also, btw, determine your choice, exactly in keeping with what God planned. Do you think the devil surprised God? Do you think Adam surprised God? Do you think you surprised God?

I keep telling you, as does Calvinism, that we do choose. The difference is, you think that when you choose, you are the only cause of your choice. Even Atheists are smarter than that, who don't even believe in First Cause. Everything is CAUSED except First Cause.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If their only option is to reject God and they have no ability to repent because God created them that way then how is that not an excuse to reject God? That's what you're not answering. C'mon, man yourself. You're not making any sense.

I can't lift 1000 pounds over my head. I just don't have that ability. So, don't I then have an excuse for not lifting 1000 pounds?
Why do you insist on the word "option"? You have at least two options, but the one you choose is always the one God already determined for you to choose.

Consider this tongue-in-cheek statement: "The only thing that can ever happen is whatever happens. Only one thing ever happens, as history shows. So it is reasonable to extrapolate that that trend will continue. We have no evidence to the contrary."

Science depends on the law of causality, as does logic. And Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing."
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Why do you insist on the word "option"?
Because a choice requires at least 2 viable options. This is the most ridiculous discussion I've ever been part of and I'm tired of it. You make no sense at all.

You have at least two options, but the one you choose is always the one God already determined for you to choose.
LOL! How is that two options? It's one option. I'm not going to waste any more time refuting this nonsensical, ridiculous argument that you're trying to make. Agree to disagree. Have a good night.
 
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Tolworth John

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The problem with that typical proof text from Calvinism, is that Jesus lost ONE of those that the Father gave Him - JUDAS.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and NONE of them is lost, EXCEPT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Judas)

Thus being given to Jesus by the father is not proof of unconditional Election, or irresistible grace, since ONE of the 12 given to Jesus was lost.

And how many other Christians are will be lost so the scripture will be fulfilled?

It was predicted that Judas would be lost in other words God knew, preordained etc etc.
 
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chad kincham

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Of course that makes no sense, because you have misrepresented what Calvinism teaches. Do you not know what Total Depravity means? As a result of the fall, they WILL not to believe --where do you get that they have no choice in the matter? Calvinism teaches that they CHOOSE to sin, CHOOSE to reject the obvious fact displayed in nature that the Creator does indeed exist, CHOOSE not to submit to him. Total Depravity says they always will not submit, and so they cannot, because they are [willing] slaves to sin. The only way out of their self-willed predicament is the work of God in them.

Calvinists don’t like to admit that their doctrine states that absolutely nothing can happen without God decreeing it, which makes God the author of sin, since the fall of Adam and Eve was therefore decreed by God.

Then after causing men to be in need of salvation, being born totally depraved and spiritually dead - so that they can’t even have faith until first being regenerated and made alive - God decided and decreed that He would arbitrarily withhold regeneration from most of His creation, thus preventing them from being able to believe - yet damn them to eternal hell, for not believing!

Since Jesus said most of humanity will be damned and only a few will be saved, then the Calvinist God has decreed that He will purposely and with malicious intent, withhold salvation from most of His creation!
 
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chad kincham

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And how many other Christians are will be lost so the scripture will be fulfilled?

It was predicted that Judas would be lost in other words God knew, preordained etc etc.

Which doesn’t change the fact that Judas was one of those that the Father gave Jesus, but was lost!

Thus, being given to Jesus by the father doesn’t prove unconditional Election, because that didn’t save Judas, did it?
 
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1an

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Calvinists don’t like to admit that their doctrine states that absolutely nothing can happen without God decreeing it, which makes God the author of sin, since the fall of Adam and Eve was therefore decreed by God.

Then after causing men to be in need of salvation, being born totally depraved and spiritually dead - so that they can’t even have faith until first being regenerated and made alive - God decided and decreed that He would arbitrarily withhold regeneration from most of His creation, thus preventing them from being able to believe - yet damn them to eternal hell, for not believing!

Since Jesus said most of humanity will be damned and only a few will be saved, then the Calvinist God has decreed that He will purposely and with malicious intent, withhold salvation from most of His creation!
That sums up the horrors of Calvinim very well.
.
 
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RickReads

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Calvinists don’t like to admit that their doctrine states that absolutely nothing can happen without God decreeing it, which makes God the author of sin, since the fall of Adam and Eve was therefore decreed by God.

Then after causing men to be in need of salvation, being born totally depraved and spiritually dead - so that they can’t even have faith until first being regenerated and made alive - God decided and decreed that He would arbitrarily withhold regeneration from most of His creation, thus preventing them from being able to believe - yet damn them to eternal hell, for not believing!

Since Jesus said most of humanity will be damned and only a few will be saved, then the Calvinist God has decreed that He will purposely and with malicious intent, withhold salvation from most of His creation!

Interesting, that looks exactly like some of the universalism arguments I`m seeing.
 
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Dave L

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The wedding invitation was for individuals to repent. Why would those who refused to come be called to repent if they couldn't? That's the question you can't answer.

Is God in the business of wasting His time offering salvation to people who are not able to accept it? Of course not. He invited them because they, like all people, are capable of choosing to accept it or reject it. The fact is that some of them accepted the invitation and the rest didn't (Romans 11:5 - a remnant was saved).

The wedding invitation went out to the Gentiles, also (Matt 22:9-10). Not sure why you didn't mention that. Like the Jews, some Gentiles have accepted it and some haven't. All people are responsible to accept or reject the invitation.
Jesus taught under the Law. And national repentance prevented their destruction. So God destroyed them when they didn't. It's not about salvation.
 
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Dave L

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You are equating some useless creeds with scripture itself. Creeds made by people who were not the authors of the Bible. That is just utter foolishness.
Every time you tell someone what a verse means, you give them your creed. But the Creed writers argued and refined each statement.
 
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Dave L

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You think the gospel does not have the power to save.
It steers us away from life's pitfalls. But the New Birth (salvation) precedes it or the gospel is foolishness. The Pharisees heard it often but it fell on deaf ears.
 
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Dave L

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The Wedding Banquet parable is referring to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb - which Jesus speaks of elsewhere. It does not fit into a call for national repentance or destruction of the nation because it addresses the fate of individuals, not a nation, and the Kings servants who were sent out were not told to stick within national borders.

I have already quoted 1 John 2:2 (universal atonement) twice today on this thread and certainly did not allude to what you said - so you are a bad listener. Here again you are twisting Obedience to God with the Works of the Law to support your preconceptions. Why do you think Obedience to God is optional?

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​
Who says so besides you?
 
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