Do Aliens Exist?

[JohnEmmett]

Yet you must believe in many of them to explain why so many people reject your ideas.

People lack faith.

If you have a cogent argument, write it out.

Plato himself said… the tale of Atlantis was strange.

 

[JohnEmmett]

Socratic paradox …

you have to be wrong before you can be right

 

[jamesbond007]

You'd come across as more intellectually honest if you just said that you don't believe that there's alien life in the universe because it doesn't mesh with your religious views, instead of trying to make yourself sound smart by incorrectly talking about the Fermi Paradox, Drake's Equation, The Great Filter, and abiogenesis like you consistently have done.

I was responding to what Strathos wrote, but atheists believe there are aliens and abiogenesis happens because they've eliminated the creator when he was in science before the 1850s. Yet, the atheist scientists are the ones who found the fine tuning facts trying to describe what happened with the big bang. Now, they've disavowed and scrubbed everything of their discovery from the internet because it helps the creationists. Isn't that more about the atheists and their religion?

Instead of religion, I use science to show there are no aliens. That abiogenesis can't happen. Furthermore, we probably won't be multi-planetary as there isn't another planet to support us. It's fine tuning that does us in again.

Will we be able to live on the moon as a supply station for astronauts in space stations nearby? I don't know. Living in space stations may be possible, but not feasible. Space junk is a problem today. We are at the 20th anniversary of the International Space Station, but there isn't great demand to be put up there. Tourists have paid their way there, but the price is a whopping $52 million. It isn't like what we saw in the 2001 movie.

That said, it did bring advancement in technology like the space shuttle.

https://nypost.com/2020/11/02/space-station-marking-20-years-of-people-living-in-orbit/

 

[AV1611VET]

Will we be able to live on the moon ...

Some think so.

 

[Speedwell]

I was responding to what Strathos wrote, but atheists believe there are aliens and abiogenesis happens because they've eliminated the creator when he was in science before the 1850s. Yet, the atheist scientists are the ones who found the fine tuning facts trying to describe what happened with the big bang. Now, they've disavowed and scrubbed everything of their discovery from the internet because it helps the creationists. Isn't that more about the atheists and their religion?

There must be aliens, because if any of that actually happened it must have been on some other planet than this one.

 

[jamesbond007]

If by "like us", you mean civilizations of individuals with egos and emotions

According to those who believe in aliens, this is more likely. Even Drake, Fermi, and many scientists believed it not that long ago when we were able to launch humans into space. However, to our surprise, we found space is very inhospitable. Why? We don't know, but the other places don't have what we have on Earth. Maybe we discovered more about our planet and how special it is.

As in my previous post, the only place I think we can live are space stations. Living on the moon may be difficult if not dangerous to life even if we carry our supplies needed there.

I wasn't saying what I believe today twenty years ago. It's only after the fine tuning facts were discovered as well as discovering what is required for abiogenesis of simple cells.

ETA: The basic problem with the science of atheism or evolution is it can't explain beauty and complexity well. These are organic and inorganic things that need to have an intelligence behind it to create. If evolution shows that an alien was found on Mars or another planet, then it greatly enhances the science.

 

[JohnEmmett]

I'm leaving this discussion…

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I was responding to what Strathos wrote, but atheists believe there are aliens and abiogenesis happens because they've eliminated the creator when he was in science before the 1850s. Yet, the atheist scientists are the ones who found the fine tuning facts trying to describe what happened with the big bang. Now, they've disavowed and scrubbed everything of their discovery from the internet because it helps the creationists. Isn't that more about the atheists and their religion?

Instead of religion, I use science to show there are no aliens. That abiogenesis can't happen. Furthermore, we probably won't be multi-planetary as there isn't another planet to support us. It's fine tuning that does us in again.

Will we be able to live on the moon as a supply station for astronauts in space stations nearby? I don't know. Living in space stations may be possible, but not feasible. Space junk is a problem today. We are at the 20th anniversary of the International Space Station, but there isn't great demand to be put up there. Tourists have paid their way there, but the price is a whopping $52 million. It isn't like what we saw in the 2001 movie.

That said, it did bring advancement in technology like the space shuttle.

https://nypost.com/2020/11/02/space-station-marking-20-years-of-people-living-in-orbit/

Except you aren't showing anything. All you're doing is claiming that aliens aren't out there because we haven't found the evidence for them, that much is true. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have the entire universe to look over, and we've only scratched the barest surface of it.
The stuff for abiogenesis and the 'fine tuning argument' is definitely your religion coming through, along with your belief in conspiracy theories. I'd definitely like some evidence for that claim.

 

[jamesbond007]

Except you aren't showing anything. All you're doing is claiming that aliens aren't out there because we haven't found the evidence for them, that much is true. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have the entire universe to look over, and we've only scratched the barest surface of it.
The stuff for abiogenesis and the 'fine tuning argument' is definitely your religion coming through, along with your belief in conspiracy theories. I'd definitely like some evidence for that claim.

I admit our space technology is nice, but even with our probes, fly bys, and few manned expeditions to the moon, we have not gone beyond our galaxy. AFAIK it's a human Mars expedition in 2030 and that's pretty much it unless the bots find something on Europa before 2030. I think you'll hear about them this decade. You'll be glad to know the ice in the crater on Mars can be dug through with a shovel. Short of actually seeing something move, this is the best kind of lack of evidence that we can get.

I realize there are a near infinite amount of galaxies out there, but reaching the limit of our galaxy may be it for our lifetime. It's not a conspiracy that we live on a very nice Earth. It would be nice if we can find a nearby planet just outside our galaxy like Earth, but the chances are slim. Otherwise, we would care more about that than finding aliens or microbes. We know already that we don't want to live on Mars and it's probably the same for Europa. Unless you got a planet or moon in mind?

 

[jamesbond007]

We don't know... you don't get to insert answers because you want to.

Then it means the big bang didn't happen. You don't get something for nothing. Energy is neither created nor lost in our universe. It's only transferred. However, in the beginning the energy had to come from somewhere. In creation, it comes from God creating the electromagnetic spectrum. I'm sure you heard he said let there be light.

 

[Strathos]

People lack faith.

Faith in any nonsense you happen to think sounds good?

Plato himself said… the tale of Atlantis was strange.

He also said it was hypothetical. As in, a thought exercise, not real history.

According to those who believe in aliens, this is more likely. Even Drake, Fermi, and many scientists believed it not that long ago when we were able to launch humans into space. However, to our surprise, we found space is very inhospitable. Why? We don't know, but the other places don't have what we have on Earth. Maybe we discovered more about our planet and how special it is.

As in my previous post, the only place I think we can live are space stations. Living on the moon may be difficult if not dangerous to life even if we carry our supplies needed there.

I wasn't saying what I believe today twenty years ago. It's only after the fine tuning facts were discovered as well as discovering what is required for abiogenesis of simple cells.

ETA: The basic problem with the science of atheism or evolution is it can't explain beauty and complexity well. These are organic and inorganic things that need to have an intelligence behind it to create. If evolution shows that an alien was found on Mars or another planet, then it greatly enhances the science.

I don't believe simple life on other planets would do anything to discredit the idea of God creating it.

I admit our space technology is nice, but even with our probes, fly bys, and few manned expeditions to the moon, we have not gone beyond our galaxy.

It would take tens of thousands of years to reach the edge of the galaxy, even at the speed of light.

 

[Shemjaza]

Then it means the big bang didn't happen. You don't get something for nothing. Energy is neither created nor lost in our universe. It's only transferred. However, in the beginning the energy had to come from somewhere. In creation, it comes from God creating the electromagnetic spectrum. I'm sure you heard he said let there be light.

View attachment 287824

That's silly.

The evidence is that the Big Bang happened... we just don't have an explanation as to where the material that expanded came from.

The universe as we know it came to be in a currently mysterious process called the Big Bang. This in no way lines up with spirits and primordial water found in a literal Genesis.

 

[jamesbond007]

That's silly.

The evidence is that the Big Bang happened... we just don't have an explanation as to where the material that expanded came from.

The universe as we know it came to be in a currently mysterious process called the Big Bang. This in no way lines up with spirits and primordial water found in a literal Genesis.

No, it's not silly but a valid question and point.

>>The evidence is that the Big Bang happened... we just don't have an explanation as to where the material that expanded came from.<<

No one saw the big bang happen. It could've been God as he was the only witness and we have the radiation from it and the CMB as evidence. What you claim, if there is no source for the energy, then you can't say it happened. People try to attribute it to singularity, but that doesn't have the same explanation as my graph.

>>The universe as we know it came to be in a currently mysterious process called the Big Bang. This in no way lines up with spirits and primordial water found in a literal Genesis.<<

I give up. I can't talk with you because your logic is circular. The big bang happened because of the big bang. Even if I accept the infinite density and infinite temperature, what is the source of the energy required and to leave it in the universe to be converted? The infinite temperature claim of is only the result of some type of infinite energy. You can't just use dark energy to explain as then we get to who or what created the dark energy?

 

[Shemjaza]

No, it's not silly but a valid question and point.

>>The evidence is that the Big Bang happened... we just don't have an explanation as to where the material that expanded came from.<<

No one saw the big bang happen. It could've been God as he was the only witness and we have the radiation from it and the CMB as evidence. What you claim, if there is no source for the energy, then you can't say it happened. People try to attribute it to singularity, but that doesn't have the same explanation as my graph.

>>The universe as we know it came to be in a currently mysterious process called the Big Bang. This in no way lines up with spirits and primordial water found in a literal Genesis.<<

I give up. I can't talk with you because your logic is circular. The big bang happened because of the big bang. Even if I accept the infinite density and infinite temperature, what is the source of the energy required and to leave it in the universe to be converted? The infinite temperature claim of is only the result of some type of infinite energy. You can't just use dark energy to explain as then we get to who or what created the dark energy?

We don't know how or why the Big Bang happened.

It isn't the explanation for how the Universe came about or where the material and energy came from.

It is a description of the history of the early Universe, which is markedly different from a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Not knowing what caused something is in no way evidence that it didn't happen.

If you find a wrecked car and have no idea what caused the accident or how it happened, it isn't reasonable to decide that the car was never wrecked.

Dark Energy isn't an explanation for itself, it's mysterious and doesn't currently have an explanation. It's a description of a force in evidence.

 

[sjastro]

Then it means the big bang didn't happen. You don't get something for nothing. Energy is neither created nor lost in our universe. It's only transferred. However, in the beginning the energy had to come from somewhere. In creation, it comes from God creating the electromagnetic spectrum. I'm sure you heard he said let there be light.

View attachment 287824

Thank God energy is not conserved in our expanding universe.
If energy was transferred through redshift of the electromagnetic spectrum, the universe would be much hotter than the 2.7K of deep outer space.
This was explained in the debunking of plasma cosmology thread.

An alternative explanation is provided by Sabine Hossenfelder who is a researcher in quantum gravity theories.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

you have to be wrong before you can be right

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Energy is neither created nor lost in our universe.

That's false. Conservation of energy is a local approximation in Einstein's General Relativity, a very well-tested theory.

This is a consequence of Noether's Theorem, which relates conservation laws to symmetries in physics. Conservation of energy is a result of time-translation symmetry which only applies in spacetimes with a static metric (like Newtonian physics). The metric of the spacetime of General Relativity is dynamic, i.e. spacetime warps and expands, so time-translation symmetry is broken, and conservation of energy doesn't hold. However, for relatively small spatial and temporal scales (i.e. not cosmological scales) spacetime is approximately static, so at human scales conservation of energy is a good approximation.

E.T.A. Oops! gazumped by sjastro with Sabine's video

Even if this was not the case, it's also a fallacy of composition to claim that what happens in the universe must apply to the universe itself.

 

[jamesbond007]

Except you aren't showing anything. All you're doing is claiming that aliens aren't out there because we haven't found the evidence for them, that much is true. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have the entire universe to look over, and we've only scratched the barest surface of it.
The stuff for abiogenesis and the 'fine tuning argument' is definitely your religion coming through, along with your belief in conspiracy theories. I'd definitely like some evidence for that claim.

I wanted to address "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." I didn't do it before because your side has the math to near infinity. This certainly can be the case of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as the numbers for a potential another Earth increase. Yet, I think the probabilities that we have will bear me out. However, I can't show it if we go beyond our solar system. I can say for near certainty using experimental evidence that there aren't any aliens anywhere in our solar system. Again, it's because of fine tuning. With an increasing larger set of solar systems in the universe, then the probabilities could change to favor your side.

 

[Shemjaza]

I wanted to address "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." I didn't do it before because your side has the math to near infinity. This certainly can be the case of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as the numbers for a potential another Earth increase. Yet, I think the probabilities that we have will bear me out. However, I can't show it if we go beyond our solar system. I can say for near certainty using experimental evidence that there aren't any aliens anywhere in our solar system. Again, it's because of fine tuning. With an increasing larger set of solar systems in the universe, then the probabilities could change to favor your side.

No one in this thread has proposed a scientific justification for life anything like Earth level in our Solar system.

It's been your hand waves about "fine tuning" as applied to the entire universe that people are disputing.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I admit our space technology is nice, but even with our probes, fly bys, and few manned expeditions to the moon, we have not gone beyond our galaxy. AFAIK it's a human Mars expedition in 2030 and that's pretty much it unless the bots find something on Europa before 2030. I think you'll hear about them this decade. You'll be glad to know the ice in the crater on Mars can be dug through with a shovel. Short of actually seeing something move, this is the best kind of lack of evidence that we can get.

I realize there are a near infinite amount of galaxies out there, but reaching the limit of our galaxy may be it for our lifetime. It's not a conspiracy that we live on a very nice Earth. It would be nice if we can find a nearby planet just outside our galaxy like Earth, but the chances are slim. Otherwise, we would care more about that than finding aliens or microbes. We know already that we don't want to live on Mars and it's probably the same for Europa. Unless you got a planet or moon in mind?

Yes, no-one is really looking for alien life inside of our solar system as the be all of space exploration. It's always admitted to be a nice side product of space exploration. But that does not mean that the possibly of alien life outside of our solar system is zero.

And when I talk about conspiracies, it's your claim that scientists got rid of data from the internet that showed they were wrong about the 'fine tuning' argument, an argument I only see from Christians who think they know better then a world of scientists.