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Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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Spiritual Jew

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My answer follows the reason for the answer (which I hope you will read because some Amills here just don't read answers to their questions, and then ask the same questions again, later - so I hope you are not one of them)

It's because your theology causes you to see things differently that you find me difficult to follow.

1. The Kingdom of Christ began immediately after Christ rose from the dead. Why are you looking for a future Kingdom of Christ when it's already here?
Are you asking me that question? If so, how can you not know by now that I believe we are already in the kingdom of Christ? I have made that same point many times and that is a primary argument that amil makes repeatedly against premils who believe we are still waiting for Christ's kingdom to come in any sense, spiritual or otherwise.

2. Paul is still talking about the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15:50, after having just said that the body is sown in corruption and raised in glory, sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.
Did you think I thought otherwise?

3. The Kingdom is already your inheritance, because you are in Christ, who is the first-fruits of the resurrection - yet you are still flesh and blood (for now).
No, that is not what Paul was talking about. He is talking about inheriting the kingdom in its fullness on the new earth where there will be no more death (Rev 21:1-4). That is why he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Because no mortals can live on the new earth since there will be no more death at that point.

What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46 which talks about inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes? That is what I believe Paul was referring to. Inheriting the kingdom in its fullness free from death and sin when He returns.

4. The New Heavens and the New Earth only comes after the thousand years (whether or not you believe the thousand years is literal or symbolic).
We all agree on this.

5. The fullness of the Kingdom of Christ/Kingdom of God will only come after the millennium (whether or not you believe the millennium is literal). So the Kingdom of God draws near in "time" and there are stages of the coming of the Kingdom of God/Christ.
How can you not see that this is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15:50? Has the last trumpet sounded yet? No, it has not.

So, he was clearly speaking of inheriting the kingdom in the future even though we are spiritually part of it now. He was talking about the changing of our bodies, so the context is in the sense of inheriting a kingdom with our changed immortal bodies which obviously has not yet happened. That happens at the point when "death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54 - Isa 25:8). When else will that be except at the point when there is no more death on the new earth (Rev 21:4 - Isa 25:8)?

I'm basing the next two points on the word IF:

6. If the thousand years is literal, it's as much the Kingdom of Christ as it has been since He rose from the dead - but it's as little the new heavens and new earth, as it is now.

However, there are major differences - Satan is (truly, actually) totally incapacitated and the satanic spirit bound. The first resurrection (Greek: synegeiro - with Christ's resurrection) has taken place at Christ's perousia, and the second death has no power over those who are resurrected at Christ's paurousia. The resurrection of the rest of the dead takes place at the close of the millennium when death and hades deliver up all the souls still in them for the GWT.
If it's literal I agree those things would be true in that case.

But, does the second death have power over you right now? How about over anyone who is currently in heaven (their souls)?

In other words, does the second death have power over us up until the time our bodies are changed to be immortal or does it cease to have power over us even before that?

7. IF Revelation 20's thousand years is literal, then the next stage of the coming of the Kingdom of Christ in "time" is the stage mentioned in Revelation 20.

The fact remains, Paul was talking about the resurrection of the body when he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Christ - this is why the next stage in your redemption is the resurrection of your body.

So NO, it does not contradict Paul in 1 Cor 15:50
In this entire post you never seemed to really address how what Paul said in that verse would relate to any mortals who becomes saved after we've all been changed at the last trumpet. How could they enter the kingdom of God when Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (because of the need to have a glorified, immortal body to do so)?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself. John 12:31-32

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to argue with the New Testament's authors' choice of words, can go argue with the people who first penned the Greek New Testament if they don't like the choice of words - but don't tell me what the Bible "should" say. The Revelation speaks of Christ shepherding the nations with a rod of iron, and no matter how much anyone argues against the choice of Greek words which the authors used, no one can change its meaning.

Personally, I don't see how Christ will rule/shepherd all nations with a rod of iron before He has shattered the rebellion of the nations with a rod of iron - and Psalm 2 is a prophecy about Christ shattering the rebellion of the nations with a rod of iron.

Paul says that Christ will put an end to all rule, authority and power at the time of the end, and hand the Kingdom back to God the Father - so no ruling with a rod of iron after that.

Nevertheless, it's up to the individual to decide whether or not Christ has already shattered, and whether or not He already rules or shepherds all nations with a rod of iron.

Again, I never chose to use the Greek word in the Revelation which translates into English as shepherd, so I find it annoying that someone will expect me to join with him in an argument about what Greek word "should be" used in the Revelation, or any part of the N.T.

In any case, I don't have the same issue you seem to have with the choice of the word shepherd in the Revelation's statements regarding Christ shepherding the nations with a rod of iron.
So, do you think that the prophecy that Rev 19:15 fulfills, which is Psalm 2:9, worded it wrong by saying He will "break" (Hebrew "ra`a`" - Strong's H7489) them with a rod of iron rather than shepherding them?
 
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Why would a reversal or removal of the curse mean "no mortals?" Can you find that in scripture?

Your scripture in Matthew does not say no mortals, or even hint of it.

Who ever said there would be "no evil?" There will be natural people with spirits separated from God, but RULED by God. That explains why, when Satan is loosed again, after being bound for a thousand years, that he convinces many to rebel.
You have strange ideas.
Do you believe that the people who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the creation of the world (Matt 25:34) at Christ's second coming will be mortal or immortal?

If mortal, then how does that line up with what Paul indicated in 1 Cor 15:50, which is that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
 
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Not that I agree with what you say regarding the thousand years of Revelation 20,

Right, you believe revelation 20 is literal and refers to new information not previously taught by the apostles or Jesus in the gospels or epistles, and is future to us.

I, however, believe revelation 20 is a parable that can be interpreted through the lens of the Gospels and epistles. All of revelation 20 can be found in the gospels and epistles.

1.) The casting out and binding

Revelation 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

a.) matthew 12:26-29 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

b.) John 12:30-33 In response, Jesus said, “This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. 31Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” 33He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

c.) Hebrews 2:14 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

d.) 1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

2.) The First resurrection and those that partake it it.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

a.) Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

b.) 1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

c.)Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence

d.) Ephesians 2:4-6 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

e.) Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

1 Johhn 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

f.) Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

g.) John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

h.) 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

3.) Satan's deceiving of the nations
Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

a.) John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me

b.) Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

c.) 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

d.) 1 thessalonians 2:16-18 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

e.) Revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

f.) 1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us

g.) 1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

h.) matthew 13:29-30 No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

4.) The destruction of Satan and the final judgment
Revelation 20:10-14 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

a.) Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christe be with you.

b.) Matthew 13:30 At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

c.) Matthew 25:33-46 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

d.) Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

e.) John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

f.) matthew 13:49-50 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

but interesting that there was a thousand years from king David to Christ.

Absolutely agree.

This sounds more like preterist than Amil.

Right, that's why I stated in post 1060, I don't hold to the traditional Amil position. For clarification, I am a partial preterist.

There was a physical resurrection 1000 years before the Cross?

No.

1.) Christ is the first resurrection from the dead. If Christ is the first, then there is no other first.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence

2.) Those that partake in Christ's resurrection, which is the FIRST resurrection, are raised spiritually from the dead to walk in the newness of life. They are a kingdom of priests to God and have overcome the world to never be hurt by the 2nd death

Ephesians 2:4-6 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

1 Johhn 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I would agree that it does not prove the traditional Amil position.

Although, to be clear, I don't hold to the traditional Amil position, that the 1,000 years is symbolic is the time between the 1st and 2nd advent.
Is there a label that we would all be familiar with that could describe your overall view? Or is this a private interpretation, as in a view that only you hold? Do you know of others who believe as you do?

From reading the rest of your post it seems that you think the 1000 years ended long ago at Christ's ascension and that Satan was loosed at that point. Is that correct?

If so, in what sense do you believe Satan was bound for the prior 1000 years up until Christ's ascension and what caused him to be bound initially?

In Rev 20, it refers to Satan getting a "little season" of time to "deceive the nations" after he is loosed. In your view, it appears that the "little season" started after Christ's ascension and Satan was cast out of heaven. Do you believe that "little season" is still going on today? If so, how exactly does describing it as a "little season" make sense?

I'm wondering if maybe you equate his "little season" to the "short time" mentioned in Rev 12:12? If so, you should be aware that the Greek meaning for the "little season" of Rev 20 would indicate a literally short amount of time whereas the Greek words interpreted as "short time" in Rev 12:12 refers to a limited (but not literally short) amount of time, so it can be any length of time.

Do you believe in a future second bodily coming of Christ and the future bodily resurrection of the dead followed by the judgment?

Edit: From another post of yours I just read, it look like you do believe in those things and that you consider yourself a partial preterist. So, I think I have the answer to this question now. Feel free to add any details if I'm misunderstanding anything about what you believe.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


How many mortals are left alive at the end of the verse above?


.
I would like to answer this if you don't mind. The answer is none. And we know this because the ones who are inheriting the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 cannot have mortal flesh and blood (1 Cor 15:50).

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Anyone who interprets the ones who inherit the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 as being mortal are contradicting what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:50. There's no way around that.
 
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Timtofly said:
Would the Sadducees be Amil, because they rejected a resurrection as well? The Messiah would come and that would be the end. Eternity would start immediately.
Good point. They may have been for that reason.
Guys, stop slandering amil. Amils believe in the future bodily resurrection of the dead. The Sadducees did not believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead at all. Equating our view with theirs is utterly ridiculous.
 
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Where on earth do you come up with this stuff? You glorify Satan over God? I am turning you in.
I have decided to not respond to him anymore because he has a lot of private interpretations and says things that defy all logic. He said he sees a psychiatrist, so maybe he needs some help determining how he comes up with these things.
 
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I would like to answer this if you don't mind. The answer is none. And we know this because the ones who are inheriting the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 cannot have mortal flesh and blood (1 Cor 15:50).

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Anyone who interprets the ones who inherit the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 as being mortal are contradicting what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:50. There's no way around that.


I agree 100%.

The answer is none.

This verse is one of several Premill killers.

.
 
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Right, you believe revelation 20 is literal and refers to new information not previously taught by the apostles or Jesus in the gospels or epistles, and is future to us.

I, however, believe revelation 20 is a parable that can be interpreted through the lens of the Gospels and epistles. All of revelation 20 can be found in the gospels and epistles.
How can you say it was not known to, then turn around and say it is very evident to?

Did they remember the Lord's Day by coming together on Sunday? If you look at a Roman 8 day week it went something like you had to work 6 days, then 2 market days. It went from Sunday to Sunday. Monday thru Saturday was the 6 days of labor. The Romans could care less about the Hebrew Sabbath or even the first day of the week for that matter. The Jews still did not work on the Sabbath, but that only worked out because there was still 6 days to work and 2 days off.

The Lord's Day from Genesis got lost in the wickedness of the Hebrews who never really returned to God after their captivity. They were under the control of the Nations around them. But why does God have to tell us the future any way? He could just surprise us and be done with it. Then when John writes it down as literal, those humans he is writing about reject it anyways, and claim they know better than John and God, Who let John write it down. Remember those 7 Thunders, God did not let John write about? I can only imagine all the denial going on: "Surely that would never happen that way, we forbid it". You all deny God His 1000 year Lord's Day, and that is the biggest future event, God allowed you all to deny.
 
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There is a resurrection at the beginning and at the end. If the beginning was when David was king, there had to be a resurrection then. Otherwise you are not talking about the 1000 years in Revelation 20 but another 1000 years mentioned elsewhere in the Bible.
 
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I have decided to not respond to him anymore because he has a lot of private interpretations and says things that defy all logic. He said he sees a psychiatrist, so maybe he needs some help determining how he comes up with these things.
I did not say I see a Psychiatrist. That is speculating on one's mental status. I took the standardized test. I don't defy logic either. All interpretation of the Bible these days is private. Just because thousands of people can agree on a private interpretation, does not make it any less private. If a person is strong in their belief, why do they get so blazing emotional and angry and want to hit something, when a person online disagrees with them?
 
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I agree 100%.

The answer is none.

This verse is one of several Premill killers.

.
I still do not get it that people dying and being resurrected "kills pre-mill". That is the only thing in Revelation 20 that defines the Millennium. If God did not resurrect those dead in the Final Harvest, there would be no 1000 year reign with Christ. Christ would sit in Jerusalem for 1000 years, eating pizza with the 144K boys. The rest of the earth would be empty. It would not kill the 1000 years, it would just make it lonely for the 144,001 males taking care of the city of Jerusalem.

Satan being detained in sheol, would be the last thing on the minds of 144,001 males.

Also that has little to do with the fact the Second Coming starts the millennium, it does not end the millennium. Jesus already gathered the harvest and is now saying enjoy this 1000 year kingdom of mine. So the verse does not kill the "Pre" part.

The Millennium is not for your so called mortals or immortals for that matter. It is not for the church either, so that rules out present time. It either does not happen after Armageddon, or it does happen after Armageddon. Those verses do not rule out it is after Armageddon. In fact the way those two verses are worded, there has to be a Millennium kingdom on earth for resurrected dead people. And it is not in a mortal, immortal, nor corruptible body. Did you rule out an incorruptible body with a verse from Scripture? Because only a verse denying incorruptible bodily resurrected humans who rule on earth with Jesus Christ in Jerusalem with the 144K male Jewish virgins for 1000 years can "kill" pre-mill.
 
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BABerean2

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Because only a verse denying incorruptible bodily resurrected humans who rule on earth with Jesus Christ in Jerusalem with the 144K male Jewish virgins for 1000 years can "kill" pre-mill.


Who was James addressing below in his letter, if it was not the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Testing of Your Faith
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.......................................................


Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Who would be the "firstfruits" in the verse below?

Rom_16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.



Who are like a "virgin" in the verse below?

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.



Do you realize the Northern tribes were taken into captivity hundreds of years before the time of Christ, and no longer exist as pure bloodlines? (See what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9.)

If the number 144,000 is not being used in a symbolic manner, why is there exactly 12,000 in each of the twelve tribes? This exact number never occurs in the numerations from the Old Testament.


.
 
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Zao is life

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Are you asking me that question?
But, does the second death have power over you right now? How about over anyone who is currently in heaven (their souls)?
In other words, does the second death have power over us up until the time our bodies are changed to be immortal or does it cease to have power over us even before that?
The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Rev 3:5-6

Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. Mat 10:32-33

Faithful is the word, for if we are dead with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Tim 2:12

If you believe the second death does not have power over anyone now (even before our bodies are either raised from the dead or changed when Christ appears), then you believe in OSAS.

That's fine, if you believe in OSAS, but I do not, so we don't agree.

However, this is not a discussion about OSAS - it simply shows that if you believe the second death has no power over us before the resurrection of our bodies, you are supporting OSAS.

The second death only has no power over those who are already risen.

Are you asking me that question?
No, that is not what Paul was talking about. He is talking about inheriting the kingdom in its fullness on the new earth where there will be no more death (Rev 21:1-4). That is why he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Because no mortals can live on the new earth since there will be no more death at that point.
Have it as you will, but I know that Paul is speaking about the resurrection of the body in 1 Cor 15 and it is in this context that he states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Christ. Paul is not speaking about the millennium but about what will happen to those who are Christ's at His coming.

As I say, have it as you will - but I do not agree with you. It's an interpretation yourself and other Amils will of necessity need to add to what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 15, IMO.
What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46 which talks about inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes?
In Psalm 2, we see the Lord smashing the rebellion of the nations with a rod of iron. In the Revelation, the author of the book uses the Greek word shepherd to speak about the Lord's reign over the nations.

Matthew 25 confirms Psalm 2, as is clear by the passage:

By the time Jesus is judging between the nations, it's quite obvious that those being judged by Him at this point in time all know that He is Lord, and they now all believe in Him - because He is now seated on the throne of His glory, and they are being judged by Him.

So the Lord speaks to the nations on His right, saying,

"Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me."

And when those whom Jesus calls "the righteous" in this passage answered saying,

"Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?"

Then Jesus replies by telling them about how they treated His people - the saved Christians:

"And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me."

Is Jesus talking to Christians - those who have already been resurrected - about how they treated Christians?

That is what I believe Paul was referring to. Inheriting the kingdom in its fullness free from death and sin when He returns.

You also believe that Paul is equating the saints inheriting the Kingdom with the NHNE.

Yet Jesus continued in Matthew 25:

"Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." Mat 25:41

The everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels - which the Revelation speaks of as occurring at the close of the millennium - and because you have assumed that the millennium is symbolic of this current age, in your mind this casting of Satan and his angels into the lake of fire "must" occur at the same time as the Lord is judging the nations. YET the passage starts off like this:

"But when the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And ALL NATIONS shall be gathered before Him.

And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.

Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me" Mat 25:31-36

So these inherit the Kingdom based on how they treated Jesus - and He bases how they treated HIM on how they had treated HIS SAINTS.

Not so for those on His left. They did not treat His saints so well. So they are reserved for the same punishment reserved for Satan and his angels:

Revelation 20
"10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."

Regarding Mat 25, Amils assume that when the Lord gathers ALL NATIONS for judgment when He appears, the sheep on His right who treated the Lord well by treating His saints well, are the same saints - they treated themselves well.

Well that's OK. You may continue with all your false assumptions, you're still a saint if you belong to Jesus - but I can see the error in the Amil thinking.

Jesus calls those of the nations on his right "righteous" because He is referring to their works with regard to how they treated His saints. The Kingdom He is referring to is not the NHNE, and these who He bids to go into His literal thousand year Kingdom are not resurrected - because they missed the resurrection of the saints which occurred when Christ appeared in the clouds and sent out His angels to gather his elect.

Daniel 7
11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time. Daniel 7:11-2

How can you not see that this is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15:50? Has the last trumpet sounded yet? No, it has not.

So, he was clearly speaking of inheriting the kingdom in the future even though we are spiritually part of it now. He was talking about the changing of our bodies, so the context is in the sense of inheriting a kingdom with our changed immortal bodies which obviously has not yet happened. That happens at the point when "death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54 - Isa 25:8). When else will that be except at the point when there is no more death on the new earth (Rev 21:4 - Isa 25:8)?
How can you read OSAS into what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 15? How can you fail to see that there are two "deaths"? The Revelation in chapter 20 states very clearly and unambiguously that the second death will have no power over those who have already been resurrected. What is the second death if not what the Bible, freed from Amil theolgy, states it is - ie the casting into the lake of fire at the GWT and at the close of a one-thousand year period when death and hades have delivered up all the souls that were in them?

Mortals will not inherit the NHNE. Flesh and blood will not inherit the NHNE. No Pre-millennialist has ever said that flesh and blood will inherit the NHNE.

All Pre-mills are saying is that the Bible means what it says regarding the thousand years. Amills can't accept that, so they keep getting the crazy idea that Pre-mills believe flesh and blood will inherit the NHNE - and the reason you guys do so, is because it's you who has the thousand years mixed up with the current age in your heads and nothing in-between this age and the NHNE.
 
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Zao is life

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So, do you think that the prophecy that Rev 19:15 fulfills, which is Psalm 2:9, worded it wrong by saying He will "break" (Hebrew "ra`a`" - Strong's H7489) them with a rod of iron rather than shepherding them?
The foundation before the building. He must break the nations with a rod of iron in order to shephered the nations with a rod of iron.

He is going to defeat the beast and cast it and its false prophet in the LOF, remember?

He is going to gather all nations to Him and set the sheep on His right, but the rest on His left, remember?

Can't you see that it's because you assume that there is no shepherding of the nations on Christ's part after the above judging between the nations that the Bible's use of the word shepherd in the Revelation confuses you? It's the only reason why you re confused as to why the author who penned the Revelation used the Greek word shepherd, and why you have a problem with his choice of words.
 
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Zao is life

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Do you believe that the people who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the creation of the world (Matt 25:34) at Christ's second coming will be mortal or immortal?

If mortal, then how does that line up with what Paul indicated in 1 Cor 15:50, which is that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
Paul only spoke of the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming in 1 Cor 15, and about the resurrection in general. Flesh and blood will not inherit the NHNE. The Bible states that is the case.

And I've answered you on 1 Cor 15:50. You make a lot of false assumptions about things and then interpret all these other scriptures in the light of your false assumptions (but go back and read my replies to you regarding 1 Cor 15:50)

Please understand that I won't answer any more of your questions if I have already answered them (such as 1 Cor 15:50) if you ignore the answer and merely repeat the question again later.

As long as you continue to falsely assume that the thousand years is symbolic, you will not see the meaning of the scriptures in 1 Cor 15, which talks about the resurrection of the body, or in Matthew 25:31-46, which talks about the Lord gathering all nations for judgment (both passages of which I have answered you on already), in the light of what it is saying. You cannot see the scriptures in the light of what they are saying because of your false assumption regarding what the Greek calls a one-thousand-year period.
 
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Zao is life

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I would like to answer this if you don't mind. The answer is none. And we know this because the ones who are inheriting the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 cannot have mortal flesh and blood (1 Cor 15:50).

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Anyone who interprets the ones who inherit the kingdom of God in Matt 25:34 as being mortal are contradicting what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:50. There's no way around that.
I've answered correctly on this, in Post 1095. It's a very long post because I was answering all your questions and correcting all your false assumptions which are based on the false assumption that the one-thousand year period spoken of in Revelation is a thousands-of-years period, and your false assumption that the current age is followed by the NHNE.
 
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Zao is life

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Guys, stop slandering amil. Amils believe in the future bodily resurrection of the dead. The Sadducees did not believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead at all. Equating our view with theirs is utterly ridiculous.
I said they may have been. I did not say they were. Saying they were Amil would be slander. Saying they may have been for that reason is not slander, not in any court of law. Maybe in an Amil court of Law but you have your own independent island for your courts.

PS: False accusations of slander are slander.
 
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Zao is life

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I agree 100%.

The answer is none.

This verse is one of several Premill killers.

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They are Amil killers whenever a Premil shows how the Amils interpret them in the "light" of their Amil false assumption, as has been done many times in this thread by others, and as I have correctly shown once again in Post #1095

Lol. You Amil guys are good at proving how you misinterpret so much of scripture by interpreting passages and verses in the "light" of your Amil false assumption.
 
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