Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Aldebaran]

Yeah commercial Halloween is great. But you sure as heck wont find me dressing up as an "Indian chief" Although I might go as a "Viking". I definitely will drink beer tho.

I think I dressed up as a ghost at least a few times as a kid, but now some people might see that as appropriating the dead. The way I saw it back then is that I was too cheap to get a store-bought costume and decided to go with a white-sheet to just keep it simple.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

The problem is Asians have a pretty unfortunate trend of being stereotyped

Definitely

It's not even an accurate costume, we're not really sure ninja wore black anyway and were more often in disguise, not secret assassins like in a James Bond movie, I forget which one, but that was also a pretty bad Asian stereotype.

The movie is You Only Live Twice, and believe me, the ninjas are not the problem with that movie. The hugely cringeworthy depiction of Asian women is. More's the pity, because it has dated an otherwise great movie.

As for accuracy - I'm not sure how that is the problem. Much of what we depict about historical figures is likely incorrect in some way. Again - I think intent is the real issue here - if you're dressing up to belittle and mock somebody or their culture, that's the problem.

The problem is that white people in their colonialist endeavors pillaged upon pretty much any culture imaginable, especially the British empire, which bled into American tendencies with manifest destiny, etc.

The British just got there first. Most cultures and nations have colonialist tendencies if given the chance. Japan's takeover of much of Asia was wrapped up in racial superiority, China has colonial intentions in Tibet and is busy displacing ethnic Uighurs with Han Chinese, Indonesia did similar things in Papua and Timor - there is a whole list.

That's not to say what the British did was right, nor that white people in western nations don't benefit from it in some way. But that's a long way removed from someone putting a ninja costume on for Halloween because they think ninjas are cool. I think most people are able to discern the problems with true colonialism while having some fun on a holiday that is itself an appropriation.

 

[muichimotsu]

Except that in the actual old west cowboys were hispanic, black, and white. So that that wheel of cheese don't cut.

-CryptoLutheran

Typically? I think even from more recent information I've heard, it was maybe around 25-30% black, though Hispanics also supposedly were about 1/4. The problem is still that whites encouraged the idea of conformity to that or you were somehow to be suspected of sympathizing with the "savages" and such.

Internalized racism is one of the bigger issues that manifests when minorities are basically forced by societal norms to conform to ideas of what it is to be "black" or "Hispanic" or they're ostracized in some form or fashion, or even just feel alienated

 

[muichimotsu]

And football fans who wear a foam block of cheese on their head to support the Green Bay Packers are people who believe Wisconsinites are all about eating cheese, right? Or if you're from Wisconsin, you must be a beer-drinking drunk? I'm in Wisconsin, and don't drink beer at all, but am not offended by the "stereotypes" either.

Then you don't realize the damage stereotypes do. Even well meaning people fall prey to them instead of having honest social interactions with as little of stereotypes coloring them as possible. When we just put people into boxes it makes social interactions damaging in that we can't deign the idea that someone breaks the mold.

Not all stereotypes are equal either, because you're talking about regional ones, which can have issues, but racial stereotypes run FAR deeper and arguably aren't easily shifted by time, especially in a culture that still favors whites disproportionately

 

[muichimotsu]

If you're going to claim it's not different, then explain it to those who have gone from gay to straight, and vice versa:
I was married with 2 kids when I realized I'm gay (opinion) - CNN

Why ‘Mostly Straight’ Men Are a Distinct Sexual Identity

Someone identifying as straight doesn't mean it was exclusively so, sometimes it can be purely a matter of feeling like you must conform, an internalized hatred of yourself if you don't fit with what your parents approve of, that you're a failure if you can't just stop being gay (when they cannot). All your examples bring up is the validity of sexuality as a spectrum, exclusive homosexuality a qualification that is probably much more rare versus people with bisexual, polysexual or pansexual tendencies. Look it up, the more you know!

 

[muichimotsu]

You haven't got a clue about how I live or what my life has been. Let me guess: You believe I make $200,000 a year and have a family of 5 and live in a safe neighborhood where there aren't any black people. Wrong! Even those of us living below the poverty level can still not see the so-called "privilege" you presume us to have.

I didn't claim anything like that, you're not paying attention to the distinction I made, which is societal privilege, not economic privilege. I'm well aware of white people suffering, but the ones who gripe about it and suggest hard work will solve it are also more likely to put black people into a box and assume that they all just arent' working hard enough and have the same opportunities when I'd bet money they know as many black people as the number of fingers on their hand, if even that.

Poverty is a different issue, but it has intersectionality with racial biases and disparity of people's acknowledging that they are still privileged even if they are impoverished, the words are not mutually exclusive

 

[muichimotsu]

The movie is You Only Live Twice, and believe me, the ninjas are not the problem with that movie. The hugely cringeworthy depiction of Asian women is. More's the pity, because it has dated an otherwise great movie.

As for accuracy - I'm not sure how that is the problem. Much of what we depict about historical figures is likely incorrect in some way. Again - I think intent is the real issue here - if you're dressing up to belittle and mock somebody or their culture, that's the problem.

The movie can have multiple problems and some of it is based on white privilege and the ignorance it breeds and encourages as if it's just okay to generalize non whites as James Bond films tended to do a lot (often just minions, as I recall)

Incorrect unintentionally can be accepted under the basis that we had ignorance of it. Acknowledging that is the first step to getting better at racial relations and cultural understandings.

One can dress up and belittle or mock someone with realizing it, and more often than not, it's white people that do so because they're either so lacking any kind of cultural heritage they latch onto the exotic and use it like it's in fashion/vogue, or they think they're entitled to it somehow because of how society regards that thing they dress up as just a joke (geisha costumes come to mind, not something you should do flippantly, which is part of Halloween costumes in general, I'd argue)

The British just got there first. Most cultures and nations have colonialist tendencies if given the chance. Japan's takeover of much of Asia was wrapped up in racial superiority, China has colonial intentions in Tibet and is busy displacing ethnic Uighurs with Han Chinese, Indonesia did similar things in Papua and Timor - there is a whole list.

I don't think people are denying that, it's just that, as I pointed out, it's more localized in nature, Japan didn't strive to go further until it became clear they had the power and then it backfired on them (WW2)

That's not to say what the British did was right, nor that white people in western nations don't benefit from it in some way. But that's a long way removed from someone putting a ninja costume on for Halloween because they think ninjas are cool. I think most people are able to discern the problems with true colonialism while having some fun on a holiday that is itself an appropriation.

Thinking ninjas are cool is different than appreciating them while also having that admiration. The fundamental issue is still the exoticism, the borderline tokenification of other non white races or making them seem like more than they are, often with historically inaccurate and ignorant ideas.

Is the holiday really an appropriation so much as a development of the idea in a different manner? That's like saying the German Christmas traditions were just ripping off Yule entirely rather than selective elements.

And a cultural practice by memesis that isn't making light of the culture itself or anything that is necessarily tied to a culture is distinct from costumes that are doing that by nature: "Oh, it'll be so fun to dress up as a samurai," while showing that you have a surface level appreciation in general of them or even understanding of the cultural significance of samurai.

Having humility is something I find that white people have major difficulty with in putting a mirror up to themselves and considering that htey benefited from a societal bias that gives them the benefit of the doubt and treats their cultural appropriation as somehow okay, while applying a double standard to any other racial group too often, as if they're crossing a line, but white people should be forgiven far easier for the same thing.

The distinction is a sense of genuine equality and equity with the cultural exchange, which Halloween as a practice doesn't really have, since the costumes are trivializing things, meant to make them less "scary" or such. Or did I miss something there?

 

[muichimotsu]

I think I dressed up as a ghost at least a few times as a kid, but now some people might see that as appropriating the dead. The way I saw it back then is that I was too cheap to get a store-bought costume and decided to go with a white-sheet to just keep it simple.

I don't think the dead have a culture or are even generally depicted in that way, the imagery is hardly appropriating, because the majority of people that ever lived are dead now, I'm pretty sure they outnumber us living

 

[muichimotsu]

There are plenty of Youtube videos I could show you where they make their hatred quite clear, but they always use their native words that can't be posted here, or I'd be happy to give you some links.

I never said there couldn't be individual racism, that's not the same as systemic/institutional, the qualifier is pretty clear by the distinction made with the word preceding racism. A society can have racist tendencies even while striving to better the status of marginalized racial groups, the importance is recognizing that harm and not dismissing or gaslighting the claims of those racial minorities.

Just because it inconveniences white people to consider that maybe they are enabling or are even outright ignorant of the lived experiences and struggles of black people (or other minority) does not make it unimportant as an issue.

I'm well aware of groups, though some will, ironically, have the Bible as their basis, not unlike some people even today (a small subculture) that will suggest that slavery is a natural state for black people, while the Black Hebrew Israelites will basically invert that whole narrative and treat white people like garbage. Their prejudice is a worldview, it isn't something that informs an institution like law enforcement or such, which is the argument supported by reasonable data for police brutality against PoC.

Pretty sure the Black Panthers are not as anti-white as you may think (I've certainly heard arguments suggesting such a thing and was thoroughly educated by a guy that, while I don't agree with all his conclusions, appreciate the perspective he gives of black people's experiences, esp. in the South), especially given the historical background where they were protecting their communities while the police didn't seem to care or were actively harmful, again based in the idea that not only doubled down on white privilege ideas that generalized black people as more criminal, but also an authoritarian streak, using the police for more than their intended purpose, to quash any sense of even peaceful resistance in the people by force

 

[MehGuy]

Now we're being told that dressing up in your favorite Halloween custume may offend someone.

Now? We've been subjected to this whining for years now. Not sure where it's coming from, I suspect mostly from clueless white people. While I can sympathize with some of the costumes being insensitive and meriting discussion, some of the costumes listed are just ridiculous. Ninja? Give me a break. There is always going to be a limit on how PC someone can be before they're met with fatigue. Although I do not expect much better from Bustle, lol. I hang around with people of color from many different cultures and the idea that these costumes hurt them is laughable. Often people of color are often the most un-PC (and cool) people I meet in daily life, lol. Patronizing them isn't the answer. Nor I suspect the majority want it.

 

[muichimotsu]

Now you're just spewing out the "re-imagined" definitions.

You not agreeing with them based on your regressive antiquated status quo doesn't invalidate them, especially in terms of arguments that have been put forward and supported with evidence since the 50s, gender as distinct from sex is nearly 70 years old at this point, it's just getting more visibility and not getting shut down by your ilk.

You never heard of "gender-fluid"? Come on, man! Get "woke" up!

You grossly misunderstand gender fluid, it is not a mere whim, it's a persistent state that doesn't conform to the gender binary, race is not a state of experience primarily rooted in abstract social norms about masculinity/femininity, it's phenotypal traits that we put into rough categories that reflect ethnicities in part, but are as much about an identity that is no more changeable than sex (which is a biological aspect, not psychological as gender is)[/QUOTE]

 

[muichimotsu]

Now? We've been subjected to this whining for years now. Not sure where it's coming from, I suspect mostly from clueless white people. While I can sympathize with some of the costumes being insensitive and meriting discussion, some of the costumes listed are just ridiculous. Ninja? Give me a break. There is always going to be a limit on how PC someone can be before they're met with fatigue. Although I do not expect much better from Bustle, lol. I hang around with people of color from many different cultures and the idea that these costumes hurt them is laughable. Often people of color are often the most un-PC (and cool) people I meet in daily life, lol. Patronizing them isn't the answer. Nor I suspect the majority want it.

As a white person, methinks you don't appear to even consider that them being hurt by it might be a legitimate experience even if YOU don't see it. That's the fundamental problem that reflects white privilege, especially in American society that seems more often to pay lipservice to diversity while encouraging pure assimilation into "white" culture

The majority is not always how we determine things to be in poor taste, especially if the majority is outright ignorant and stuck in the idea that freedom is more important than liberty and discretion

 

[durangodawood]

The problem is Asians have a pretty unfortunate trend of being stereotyped and I can recall a few examples even in media that's meant to satirize it, like King of the Hill with a Laotian neighbor that Hank just assumes is either Chinese or Japanese.....

Thats so true.

But....once things get into the global culture, like with ninjas, there's kind of no going back.

Maybe Japan should close all its "maid cafes" which are based on this sexy French maid stereotype.....?

 

[MehGuy]

As a white person, methinks you don't appear to even consider that them being hurt by it might be a legitimate experience even if YOU don't see it.

I think I do. I already stated I can sympathize with a few items on that list. I just realize you need to pick your battles. The human mind will only tolerate so much political correctness until it tunes out.

That's the fundamental problem that reflects white privilege, especially in American society that seems more often to pay lipservice to diversity while encouraging pure assimilation into "white" culture

Not sure what you mean by this. People have their own lives to worry about. There comes a point where a person is not going to expend a certain amount of energy to cradle every perceived slight against a minority culture. You may be more into delving into the feelings of other cultures, but not everyone is going to share your level of enthusiasm for that particular hobby. Progress is good, but you need to be realistic about it or else you risk turning others away.

The majority is not always how we determine things to be in poor taste, especially if the majority is outright ignorant and stuck in the idea that freedom is more important than liberty and discretion

We also don't have to defer to the most easily offended either. The majority of humans (minority or majority) are not like that.

 

[bèlla]

I hang around with people of color from many different cultures and the idea that these costumes hurt them is laughable.

I don't have time for that. I like what I like. I use avatars of different ethnicities all the time. If I want to be Cher for Halloween I will. And look darned good too!

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[MehGuy]

I don't have time for that. I like what I like. I use avatars of different ethnicities all the time. If I want to be Cher for Halloween I will. And look darned good too!

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Your avy with the girl being romantically infatuated with a butterfly looks like some sort of cultural appropriation. Lol.

 

[bèlla]

Your avy with the girl being romantically infatuated with a butterfly looks like some sort of cultural appropriation. Lol.

I think she's part Asian. I know who the model is. You need to leave her alone! *lol*

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[MehGuy]

I think she's part Asian. I know who the model is. You need to leave her alone! *lol*

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

She's a model? The plot thickens..

The image looks pretty problematic to me. The woman seems to be bowing her head in submission to the more dominate partner the butterfly. While in reality Asian woman can be just as strong and assertive as anyone else.

 

[bèlla]

She's a model? The plot thickens..

The image looks pretty problematic to me. The woman seems to be bowing her head in submission to the more dominate partner the butterfly. While in reality Asian woman can be just as strong and assertive as anyone else.

Now you're accusing me of stereotyping!

For the record, I don't know any submissive Asian women. I'm sure they exist. But I've never encountered them.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Strathos]

Pretty sure the Black Panthers are not as anti-white as you may think (I've certainly heard arguments suggesting such a thing and was thoroughly educated by a guy that, while I don't agree with all his conclusions, appreciate the perspective he gives of black people's experiences, esp. in the South), especially given the historical background where they were protecting their communities while the police didn't seem to care or were actively harmful, again based in the idea that not only doubled down on white privilege ideas that generalized black people as more criminal, but also an authoritarian streak, using the police for more than their intended purpose, to quash any sense of even peaceful resistance in the people by force

The original Black Panthers were not a racist organization. The New Black Panthers, on the other hand...