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Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

Trogdor the Burninator

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Now we're being told that dressing up in your favorite Halloween custume may offend someone.

Cultural appropriation seems to be one of those ideas that starts out sensibly but quickly veers off into what seems to be a competition on how offended people can be.

Yes - I'm pretty sure Native Americans are all sick of Pocahontas costumes, and no, poking some chopsticks in your hair isn't impressing anyone.

But now ninjas are bad? And we're supposed to be offended at people dressing up as ancient Egyptians because of a "violent history"? Come on. If we're going there, then I don't want to see any Romans or Vikings either. And Italy - we're still waiting for you to give pasta noodles back to the Chinese
 
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muichimotsu

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No idea why anyone would want to tote that flag anyway. It's the flag of a bunch of absolute losers, lol
Oh, obviously because they regard symbols as purely relative and want to engage in historical revisionism. They might try to compare the rainbow flag for LGBTQ as somehow taking away from the Bible's use for "God's promise", but if all things are fair play, you can't selectively complain about one symbol changing and then claim all other symbols are purely relative rather than changing by cultural memesis.

And also there's that whole complaint about people trying to erase history...seems like that's the goal if you're going to basically ignore the Confederate battle flag's past and try to say it's about Southern pride, when I'd sooner consider BBQ a symbol of Southern pride (and there's a company called Southern Pride that sells smokers and such)
 
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muichimotsu

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Cultural appropriation seems to be one of those ideas that starts out sensibly but quickly veers off into what seems to be a competition on how offended people can be.

Yes - I'm pretty sure Native Americans are all sick of Pocahontas costumes, and no, poking some chopsticks in your hair isn't impressing anyone.

But now ninjas are bad? And we're supposed to be offended at people dressing up as ancient Egyptians because of a "violent history"? Come on. If we're going there, then I don't want to see any Romans or Vikings either. And Italy - we're still waiting for you to give pasta noodles back to the Chinese
Ninjas in that depiction are not only historically accurate, but it's like assuming anyone of South Asian descent knows martial arts or similar stereotypes.

The problem is fundamentally encouraging stereotypes that are not just a joke in general, but marginalizing or otherwise treating an ethnic or racial group like a joke to be utilized like it's mere performance, when culture is not merely performative.

The fact that it's a costume is also a major point of issue versus something where you're trying to be historically accurate and the context is based on that. But there's also the concern about colonialism, since white people have this idea that they can just use any other culture and it's fine (not that other people don't do it as well, but white people kind of started that trend of pillaging from any other culture nearby, even as far back as the Vikings or Romans)
 
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muichimotsu

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Umm..so? That's not it's meaning to many people. You don't get to decide what it means to them.
And you don't get to willfully ignore historical meaning in a historical negationist fashion to endorse this ridiculous Lost Cause of the Confederacy nonsense. Does history matter to you only when its' convenient versus being consistent and applying that idea overall even if it means you can't invoke one symbol for Southern pride?

I'm Southern and I'd sooner spit on that flag than have anythign to do with it as an association of Southern identity, because as @Triumvirate pointed out, it's a flag of losers, of secessionist traitors who thought racism was a natural state

There are plenty of other symbols that don't have that association, and shouldn't innovation be important in regards to symbols versus always trying to repurpose old ones?
 
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muichimotsu

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Race does not exist IMO... we are all one race. That's why racism is stupid. That's why it should never be black lives matter or white lives or green lives but all lives.
No, we are one species, homo sapiens, race is a description based on physical characteristics and reflects cultural and sociological ideas. It is not racist to acknowledge race as a thing, your attempt to be colorblind only encourages more racism in the sense that it actually encourages the status quo that has, demonstrably, a bias in favor of white people over minorities.

You don't want to acknowledge race because, very likely, you don't want to consider that there are differences in lived experience for people that are, in no small part, based on their race, how people look at them based on their appearance. You'd prefer to act like the problems that exist are about ANYTHING but race when that intersectional consideration is virtually unavoidable

Not all racism is explicit, you seemingly don't want to put a mirror up to yourself and consider that you are reinforcing negative stereotypes about minorities even if you insist that you aren't racist, which might be true in the sense that you aren't regarding them with malice or negativity like a Nazi or KKK member would.

That doesn't mean that, as a white person, you aren't enabling and playing into systems that have been about treating whiteness as the norm, which can even get into a subconscious notion of glorifying it, suggesting to minorities that white people are really important instead of acknowledging minorities as helping America as well in a way that is equitable and not tokenizing, like MLK Jr. or Rosa Parks.

Not knowing about other important black figures in history marginalizes the group as a whole because they lack diverse role models to look up to, only having majority white people in history to reference.
 
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Strathos

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What of it, and how is this relevant?

The Confederate flag is still being displayed in the same states that initially used it. Not really comparable to the example you raised, where a symbol is being used in a totally different context.

I was responding to the idea that a symbol that can be offensive in some contexts is always offensive, regardless of the intentions behind its use.

They don't call it a swastika, at least not exclusively, but it also has a very distinct cultural context and there are meanings to the right and left facing ones in Hindu, because the term originates in Sanskrit.

No one says that remotely and to suggest that a kneejerk reaction with historical ignorance is valid is only shooting yourself in the foot to try and suggest the Confederate flag is remotely comparable to the swastika, when the swastika long predated the 3rd Reich in Germany and was repurposed for repugnant ideas with the occult bizarre Aryan mentality Hitler had.

The Confederate battle flag was capitalized on by white supremacists in the 60s to suggest they were about state rights instead of being honest and saying they didn't like the federal government pointing out that they were being discriminatory and racist to black people and resisting integration based on the idea that they can do whatever they want because the constitution "protects" states' rights if it's not made explicit as a government power

I don't like or display that flag. But there are a lot of people who associate it with things other than racism.
 
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muichimotsu

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I was responding to the idea that a symbol that can be offensive in some contexts is always offensive, regardless of the intentions behind its use.

I didn't claim that, but it also cannot be severed from historical contexts of its use, especially not when it was done under the auspices of a country explicitly. The problem is acting like it can never be offensive rather than sweeping it under the rug while complacently admitting it can be. Symbols being reinvented does not mean the previous meaning is erased, only rendered less influential in culture. But the use of the Confederate battle flag is not just from the Civil War, we have evidence and I'm almost certain my parents and grandparents can attest about Dixiecrats using the Confederate battle flag to buck against trends of integration.

I don't like or display that flag. But there are a lot of people who associate it with things other than racism.
Ad populum does not make something appropriate, especially when the people using it are likely falling prey to historical negationism, trying to basically treat that part of history like it doesn't matter, even if they acknowledge it. Not quite historical revisionism, but equally dangerous culturally.

Look up Lost Cause of the Confederacy: I'd bet money most people that advocate what you're talking about (and I'm familiar with that trend, I've never not lived in TN, the Bible Belt and likely having significance in the Civil War that I'm not entirely aware of) are using that, even if they aren't using it by name
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Ninjas in that depiction are not only historically accurate, but it's like assuming anyone of South Asian descent knows martial arts or similar stereotypes.

Is it though? How is someone wearing a costume from a particular Asian country equating to stereotyping all Asians? Doesn't it come down to intent rather than just the act of wearing a costume?

The problem is fundamentally encouraging stereotypes that are not just a joke in general, but marginalizing or otherwise treating an ethnic or racial group like a joke to be utilized like it's mere performance, when culture is not merely performative.

I can agree if you're setting out to merely do something to belittle others - that's offensive, but it would be offensive even if culture or race weren't involved.

But there's also the concern about colonialism, since white people have this idea that they can just use any other culture and it's fine (not that other people don't do it as well, but white people kind of started that trend of pillaging from any other culture nearby, even as far back as the Vikings or Romans)

I think you will find that it wasn't just white people. *People* have been pillaging from any culture nearby. The Persians were doing it hundreds of years before the Romans, the Moors were in Europe at the same time as the Vikings, and the Khmers held most of SE Asia for a good portion of 500 years.

Colonialism is just associated with white people because of recent history. Well, excluding Japan of course, but lots of people seem to forget that.
 
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muichimotsu

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Is it though? How is someone wearing a costume from a particular Asian country equating to stereotyping all Asians? Doesn't it come down to intent rather than just the act of wearing a costume?

The problem is Asians have a pretty unfortunate trend of being stereotyped and I can recall a few examples even in media that's meant to satirize it, like King of the Hill with a Laotian neighbor that Hank just assumes is either Chinese or Japanese

It's not even an accurate costume, we're not really sure ninja wore black anyway and were more often in disguise, not secret assassins like in a James Bond movie, I forget which one, but that was also a pretty bad Asian stereotype.

The act of wearing a costume at Halloween has a particular intent, which is not the same as if you were doing so with the acknowledgement or understanding that it's meant to mean something, while Halloween costumes are pure leisure, practically speaking. Even a cosplay would have more significance, if done with respect in some notion of understanding that it isn't accurate, but a Halloween costume is commercialized no less, probably the most damning aspect



I can agree if you're setting out to merely do something to belittle others - that's offensive, but it would be offensive even if culture or race weren't involved.
One can do this unintentionally, belittling is part of marginalization, particularly in systemic racism and internalized racism of black people thinking they have to adhere to stereotypes or they won't be accepted by the majority white culture, it's a whole problem I can't even begin to explain or even understand fully as a white person.



I think you will find that it wasn't just white people. *People* have been pillaging from any culture nearby. The Persians were doing it hundreds of years before the Romans, the Moors were in Europe at the same time as the Vikings, and the Khmers held most of SE Asia for a good portion of 500 years.

Colonialism is just associated with white people because of recent history. Well, excluding Japan of course, but lots of people seem to forget that.

The problem is that white people in their colonialist endeavors pillaged upon pretty much any culture imaginable, especially the British empire, which bled into American tendencies with manifest destiny, etc.

Just because it's more recent history doesn't mean that the white supremacist attitude and systemic racism that underpins it and influences even well meaning white people that don't hold ill will towards minorities but want to "help" them isn't a bad thing and should be thoroughly condemned, especially by people who want to move forward and not cling to outdated ideas about American exceptionalism or the idea that black people are perfectly fine in American culture when they're anything but.

Japanese nationalism was far more isolated, in no small part because they preferred to stick within that general area (and it wasn't exactly easy in early history versus when they started utilizing more modern means, but their nationalism and colonialism only overlap slightly, I'd argue)
 
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durangodawood

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....And Italy - we're still waiting for you to give pasta noodles back to the Chinese
And tomatoes back to the "new world".

No pasta and sauce in Italy (or the Italian city states or whatever)???
 
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ViaCrucis

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Have you ever seen a black person dress up as a cowboy? The cowboys of the Old West were typically white, and the cowboy is stereotypically white. Should a black person dressing up as a cowboy be deemed as being offensive to white people?

Except that in the actual old west cowboys were hispanic, black, and white. So that that wheel of cheese don't cut.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aldebaran

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Woman is not sex, get with the program, it's a social construct versus the scientific description for female, which is sex, like how we use to even describe plants, let alone animals.

Now you're just spewing out the "re-imagined" definitions.

But I never said I agreed race was something you could just identify with at a whim, you're strawmanning me, not to mention the NAACP

You never heard of "gender-fluid"? Come on, man! Get "woke" up!
 
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Aldebaran

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Yeah, it's a disqualification in the same way you can't be a part of any organization that has constraints regarding membership, but it doesn't mean you can't support them nonetheless.

They had constraints regarding membership, as in having to be only a certain race? Seems like a racist organization, which is plenty of reason to not support them. At least, that's what we've always been told by the Left, the MSM, and other "woke" individuals.
Looks like you guys are still undecided about your values. Let me know when you get them figured out.
 
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Aldebaran

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Who says they hate white people? You? How do you know this? Sure you aren't generalizing based on your own perceived sense of superiority in a society that I can demonstrate pretty easily favors white people over black people, giving the former the benefit of the doubt in situations they would almost never give black people.

There are plenty of Youtube videos I could show you where they make their hatred quite clear, but they always use their native words that can't be posted here, or I'd be happy to give you some links.
 
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Aldebaran

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Because I think you could do better if you had remote humility instead of, ironically, finding any excuse to deflect responsibility from yourself and consider that society may not be as great as you want to think it is because you're not significantly inconvenienced in any way that black people or other people of color are. One word: privilege, 2 if we want to frame it more precisely as societal privilege

You haven't got a clue about how I live or what my life has been. Let me guess: You believe I make $200,000 a year and have a family of 5 and live in a safe neighborhood where there aren't any black people. Wrong! Even those of us living below the poverty level can still not see the so-called "privilege" you presume us to have.
 
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Aldebaran

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Same way people try to make being gay something that people just choose so it can be rendered as different from race, dishonestly ignoring the basic facts and even scientific research that suggests that, while sexuality is not the same as phenotypal traits for race, it doesn't appear to be nearly as mutable as, say, your sense of fashion or taste in food.

If you're going to claim it's not different, then explain it to those who have gone from gay to straight, and vice versa:
I was married with 2 kids when I realized I'm gay (opinion) - CNN

Why ‘Mostly Straight’ Men Are a Distinct Sexual Identity
 
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Aldebaran

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Ninjas in that depiction are not only historically accurate, but it's like assuming anyone of South Asian descent knows martial arts or similar stereotypes.

And football fans who wear a foam block of cheese on their head to support the Green Bay Packers are people who believe Wisconsinites are all about eating cheese, right? Or if you're from Wisconsin, you must be a beer-drinking drunk? I'm in Wisconsin, and don't drink beer at all, but am not offended by the "stereotypes" either.
 
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durangodawood

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I'm going to meekly suggest that its actually ok to be a ninja for Halloween. Plus the ninja face cover is extra covid safety.

Heck even Halloween itself is a completely commercialized appropriation of a terrific Celtic tradition.
 
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Aldebaran

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I'm going to meekly suggest that its actually ok to be a ninja for Halloween. Plus the ninja face cover is extra covid safety.

Heck even Halloween itself is a completely commercialized appropriation of a terrific Celtic tradition.

At least the kids get to enjoy dressing up and walking around the neighborhood getting candy. They aren't concerned with "cultural appropriation" or the origin of a tradition.
 
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durangodawood

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At least the kids get to enjoy dressing up and walking around the neighborhood getting candy. They aren't concerned with "cultural appropriation" or the origin of a tradition.
Yeah commercial Halloween is great. But you sure as heck wont find me dressing up as an "Indian chief" although I might go as a "Viking". I definitely will drink beer tho.
 
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