want to talk about OSAS?

[1an]

Moses spent his last day on earth hanging out with God and looking over the promised land. I think he`s ok.

Well the devil fought God for his body, and as I said Moses did not enter the promised land.
Now we come the the God of Moses, to whom Moses gave tithes. I often wonder what the invisible God wants with earthly treasure.

Anyway if the Pharisees of Christs day worshipped the same God as Moses, and they did, Read John 8:44 to know who the god of the Jews is.
.

 

[1an]

Moses spent his last day on earth hanging out with God and looking over the promised land. I think he`s ok.

Moses also appeared to Jesus, think about it. Matt 17

Moses with Jesus in the transfiguration was a sign to the Jews that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They still do not believe.

 

[Guojing]

As I said salvation is through Jesus only and the thief repented to Jesus who will forgive us our sins.

You are not familiar with the passage of Romans 5:12-19?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We don't get to heaven by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. We also don't get to heaven based on the merits of our works, such as caring for the poor. You obviously teach salvation by works and have demonstrated it multiple times. This is one more example.

And therein lies the contradiction of your own belief system that is not supported by the Bible.
You want to be saved by Faith Alone but when push comes to shove, you say that a Faith Alone does not save when it comes to application. You need works to show a true Faith Alone, and yet you deny those very works as being necessary part of salvation even though you say you are saved by Faith Alone. Sounds confusing and inconsistent. Either Faith Alone without works saves or one needs works to show their faith to be saved. It's that simple. You can keep going around and around circles like a dog chasing it's tail, but I will rest in what God's Word says on this matter where there is consistency and sound logic as a part of the faith. But you really are not seeing how your belief is a contradiction or a belief that is set to auto destruct. Your not taking a step back and seeing the problem in your own belief system.

If Faith Alone truly saves and is true, then no amount of works are needed to show one is saved.
But you know that being fruitless is bad according to the Bible, so you fight to include works but then you undercut them as being worthless in regards to salvation. Sounds confusing, and GOD is not the author of confusion. Your belief cannot be supported by making a real world example or parable either (Like Jesus made), either. Anyone who is disloyal to the king is an enemy of GOD. It's that simple. Jesus makes it clear that if anyone does not do what He says, they will be destroyed in Matthew 7:26-27, and Acts of the Apostles 3:23.

 

[RickReads]

It`s not that hard. Fire produces smoke but smoke doesn`t produce fire and you can`t use smoke to make fire, smoke can`t even help you make fire.

 

[Albion]

Do you not understand that a person can have a change of heart and mind?
.

I certainly do. Why don't people who think God will abandon his Elect when they sin (which we all do) never allow for the possibility that they will return to the Faith later on?

It's where they' end up' prior to death that makes the difference between heaven and hell for any of us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A poster recenty claimed we need not listen to Christ for our salvation...WRONG, and I'd go so far as to call that bizzare.

And not to mention a violation of Matthew 7:26-27, and Acts of the Apostles 3:23.

Just this morning, before today, I was not able to see what kind of works were taking place in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). These were the works of the Law of Moses that was in effect before the cross. But the point here is that the Pharisee paid tithes in that parable (Which is something that is a part of the Law of Moses and it is not a part of the New Covenant). So when Jesus died and started a New Covenant, and some time later the apostle Paul showed up on the scene as God's New Covenant messenger, we learn that the Law or works that Paul was condemning in Ephesians 2:8-9 was the works of the Law of Moses (the 613 laws given to Israel). For at that time, a false view of Judaism (Works Alone Salvationism by the Law of Moses) was still a major problem that needed to be dealt with. Paul needed to tell Christians that we are not saved by the popular Jewish way.

But today, many twist the words of Paul to say that he was referring to all forms of Law and or works, when this was not the case. Paul himself said that if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and give grace to the humble.

It's really odd. The only place in the Bible that uses the words “Faith Alone” is actually telling us that we are not justified (saved) by faith alone but we are also justified (saved) by works (i.e. James 2:24). If the Bible teaches that we are saved by Faith Alone, then it would have used those words, but it simply doesn't. In fact, on almost every page of our New Testament is a place that shows how we need to be faithful to Jesus in order to have a part in salvation. Being faithful to Jesus involves good works.

 

[1an]

I certainly do. Why don't people who think God will abandon his Elect when they sin (which we all do) never allow for the possibility that they will return to the Faith later on?

It's where they' end up' prior to death that makes the difference between heaven and hell for any of us.

We should always allow for the possibility that people will return to their first love, that is the message of the prodigal son, and there will be rejoicing in heaven whenever it happens.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And...in between the moment of his sin and the moment of his confession, what Hell was he not saved from? It's not a big leap, really. In that period, between those two events, what happened to David that would not have happened, otherwise? What punishment did he suffer, from which he was not saved? The answer is...nothing.

I don't really understand your point. David did not have to go to hell in order to realize that he needed to regain his salvation back again (and the joy that comes with that). An unbeliever who first comes to Christ for the first time did not experience the fires of hell to put the fear of the Lord in him/her in order to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. He takes it by faith in God's Word in hell's existence. Just as we take it by faith in God's Word that sin is separation from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8). For nothing happened to a new convert in order for them to believe God's Word on hell and a conviction of their own lost state in order to accept Jesus and be saved. So your point is moot.

Quite the contrary. The prodigal son never ceased to be a son. He rebelled. He sold his inheritance, but he never stopped being a son. He could return anytime. The evidence you cite disproves your own point.

But sons can die. Sons who are dead cannot partake in family picnics, and family dinners and get togethers. Dead sons will not be in the city of New Jerusalem. Outside the gates of the city are adulterers, and murderers, etc. Again, you are ignoring truth in the Bible. The father said to his prodigal son that came home and sought forgiveness was “dead” and he is now “alive AGAIN.” In addition, he said he was lost and he was now found. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, we are talking about the unsaved. But of course you do not like these truths revealed in Scripture, so you will choose to simply ignore them and or change them to mean something else.

Incidentally, none of his acquaintances during his travels ever had the privilege of returning, as he did, because they were not sons.

Your inventing something that the Parable does not teach.

Anyways, 1 John 3:10 says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I ran out of patience yesterday when I read this. People rarely catch it but every position I take is based on Paul`s gospel. Paul is the source for a lot of the theology that has developed since the first century. Most denominational beliefs have some similarities to the teachings of Paul. That isn`t my fault and it sure doesn`t make me a follower of any of them. In practice I look for areas of agreement with churches. I like churches and in the real world I go out of my way to avoid criticizing them. I don`t apologize for my friendship with OSAS Trinitarian Christians.

I`m not sure you would know what to do if you set aside the pet denominational arguments that you mix with the scriptures. You got a whole army of strawmen categories you put people into that you can attack with predetermined criticisms.It prevents me from being able to discuss the Bible with you.

Calvin didn`t write these. Neither did Mr. Osas
:
v

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You are still not explaining how your view of sin and salvation is different than OSAS, and how your view of Election is different than Calvinism. Your beliefs on these matters is still shrouded in mystery. What do you have to hide? Should the truth of God's Word be hidden?

As for talk of being the Elect:

12 “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Colossians 3:12-17).

Colossians 3 also says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:” (Colossians 3:5-6).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It`s not that hard. Fire produces smoke but smoke doesn`t produce fire and you can`t use smoke to make fire, smoke can`t even help you make fire.

Nobody here is suggesting in putting the cart before the horse. Most Conditonal Salvationists believe that we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (without the deeds of the Law), and then afterwards, we make good on our prayer to the Lord, and we put away sin, and we do good works as a part of the Sanctification Process (and in being loyal to our Lord). These good works are the works of God done through the believer and they are not their own works alone whereby they would boast in themselves. For all praise and glory go to Jesus for any good done in a believer's life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“And ye know that he was manifested
to take away our sins;” (1 John 3:5).

“...put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and make not provision for the flesh,
to fulfil the lusts thereof.”
(Romans 13:14).

 

[A_JAY]

EDIT:10/29 ADDED: I don't like the term OSAS myself. I believe that God preserves those to the very end who have true faith in Him.

OSAS is a term that I associate with a "checklist" evangelism. The preacher or evangelist has prospects come forward, they say a little prayer, they go through a checklist asking if they believe this and that. The preacher may say something like 'Welcome to the Kingdom', and some may state that these folks should never question their salvation. That is "OSAS" to me. That is cheap grace and Easy Believism.

This is belief or faith on some level, but not saving faith. Faith is a trust in Jesus that what he says is true and worth following. Faith is a turning away from self and turning to Jesus. Faith is not a faith in dogma, or faith in faith, but a reliance on Jesus as a Prophet, Priest, Lord, and King.

Many of these people have a false assurance of salvation, and may strongly cling to "OSAS". They may believe that their life will be little changed from before. Preachers are doing no favor by preaching this gospel that has no resemblance to God's word.

God will preserve those who truly believe.

 

[Albion]

For sure, though, always insisting that Eternal Security CAN ONLY be discussed or understood as part of everything that John Calvin believed and taught is a discussion-killer. And too much of this thread has been devoted to doing just that.

 

[Albion]

OSAS is a term that I associate with a "checklist" evangelism. The preacher or evangelist has prospects come forward, they say a little prayer, they go through a checklist asking if they believe this and that.

Perhaps you should make it a point to stop doing that, then.

The preacher may say something like 'Welcome to the Kingdom', and some may state that these folks should never question their salvation. That is "OSAS" to me. That is cheap grace and Easy Believism.

Cheap grace and Easy Believism are not OSAS, however, so where does that leave us if OSAS is supposed to be the topic under consideration?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Perhaps you should make it a point to stop doing that, then.


Cheap grace and Easy Believism are not OSAS, however, so where does that leave us if OSAS is supposed to be the topic under consideration?

Yes its a caricature.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Cheap grace and Easy Believism are not OSAS, however, so where does that leave us if OSAS is supposed to be the topic under consideration?

Pop Quiz:

Was king David saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
If a believer generally lived a holy life, but they looked upon a woman in lust, and then they quickly died thereafter by getting hit by a bus before getting a chance to confess of their sin, are they still saved?
Can a believer commit suicide and still be saved?
If a believer looks upon a woman in lust, are they still saved while doing so?
If a believer hates their brother for a week, are they still saved during that week?

Side Note:

Any refusal to answer these questions will just make your belief look guilty and or wrong. In other words, is your of version of OSAS all that much different than Cheap grace and or Easy Believism? If you believe that this is so, then explain how the two are different.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

pop quiz.

Was Peter who wrote scripture, was filled with the Holy Spirit, was the leader of the Apostles saved when he was practicing hypocrisy ? yes or no

Was Barnabas lost as well it says he was lead astray from Peter.

Does a sheep that wanders from the fold stop being a sheep or does the Good Shepherd protect His sheep and go get the one and leave the 99 ?

see Galatians 2

 

[Kenny'sID]

I did answer your simple question. It just was not the answer you were looking for. In regards to John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of having obtained salvation. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

You say no one is saved by works, so why do you keep arguing with me when I say the same thing? Also, why do you constantly cite passages of scripture that works-salvationists typically cite in their efforts to teach we are saved by works?

Where exactly was that answer, please? I must have missed among all the other stuff? Thanks

 

[Bible Highlighter]

pop quiz.

was Peter who wrote scripture, was filled with the Holy Spirit, was the leader of the Apostles saved when he was practicing hypocrisy ? yes or no

see Galatians 2

I honestly do not know. Not all things are clearly spelled out in the Bible. We look through a glass darkly. I don't see how this helps your belief anyways. You already stated king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder (Which is a violation of Scripture in several places). So you are teaching that you can sin and still be saved (Which is turning God's grace into a license for immorality). Anyways...

King David was not saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder!

1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).


Side Note:
That does not mean king David could not later confess of his sins and be forgiven and receive the joy of his salvation back again as Psalms 51 teaches.

Side Note 2:
I know this list of verses put forth to you will just go ignored by you yet again. But at least our readers will know the truth.