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The Rapture theory is true?

Spiritual Jew

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There is a HUGE context problem with a "falling away" being a good translation.

Question: in verse 3b: is the man of sin revealed?
I don't know what context problem you're referring to here. I don't understand your question, either. It says the man of sin would have to be revealed before the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs. Do you see a problem with that?

Please clarify what this huge context problem is that you're seeing and also please clarify your question and why you're asking it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Did I write strong's? I assure you I did not. I just copied and pasted. He is showing us the real meaning of each part of the compound word, apostasia. It does not matter how it is usually used. The question we need ask is, CAN it be used as Strong's suggested: as a PART of a whole group moved spatially to another location, and it be done so fast the rest of the world appeared standing still?

I have changed nothing! I am only quoting and expert on Greek.
The English Bible translators are all experts in Greek, also, and yet none of them that I can see translated it in the way that you understand it. They all have it as "the rebellion" or the falling away from the faith. But, I guess you are smarter than all of them.
 
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BABerean2

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"Fullness of the Gentiles" and "the times of the Gentiles" are not the same thing.


If they were the same thing that would be bad for the Pretrib doctrine.
Can you explain the difference to us?



Luke 21:24

(ESV) They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(ESV+) They will fall by the edge of the sword and R17be led captive among all nations, and R18Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, R19until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(Geneva) And they shall fall on the edge of the sword, and shalbe led captiue into all nations, and Hierusalem shalbe troden vnder foote of the Gentiles, vntill the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled
.
(GW) Swords will cut them down, and they will be carried off into all nations as prisoners. Nations will trample Jerusalem until the times allowed for the nations to do this are over.

(KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(KJV+) AndG2532 they shall fallG4098 by the edgeG4750 of the sword,G3162 andG2532 shall be led away captiveG163 intoG1519 allG3956 nations:G1484 andG2532 JerusalemG2419 shall beG2071 trodden downG3961 ofG5259 the Gentiles,G1484 untilG891 the timesG2540 of the GentilesG1484 be fulfilled.G4137

(NKJV) And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(YLT) and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.


Romans 11:25

(ESV) Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

(ESV+) R8Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:N1 R9a partial hardening has come upon Israel, R10until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

(Geneva) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret (least ye should bee arrogant in your selues) that partly obstinacie is come to Israel, vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.

(GW) Brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery so that you won't become arrogant. The minds of some Israelites have become closed until all of God's non-Jewish people are included.

(KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(KJV+) ForG1063 I wouldG2309 not,G3756 brethren,G80 that yeG5209 should be ignorantG50 of thisG5124 mystery,G3466 lestG3363 ye should beG5600 wiseG5429 inG3844 your own conceits;G1438 thatG3754 blindnessG4457 inG575 partG3313 is happenedG1096 to Israel,G2474 untilG891 G3757 theG3588 fulnessG4138 of theG3588 GentilesG1484 be come in.G1525

(NKJV) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

(YLT) For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret—that ye may not be wise in your own conceits—that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;


.
 
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iamlamad

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It's not the church. It's the Holy Spirit. God is the only One who can restrain wickedness. He does not need to take the church out of the world in order for wickedness to be unrestrained. The church will still be here, but it will be lacking in power because God will no longer contend with the wicked at some point just like was the case in Noah's day. Much like what we see today. The church has not been able to stop atrocities like abortion and a major increase in violence and sexual immorality and things like that. With that in mind, why would you think the church would need to be raptured in order for wickedness to increase significantly?
Wow! Finally I see a glimmer of hope here! Yes, of course it is the Holy Spirit that restrains wickedness. But how do you understand the Holy Spirit being "taken out of the way?" Will this just be a sovereign work of God? And how can He since the Holy Spirit has promised to stay inside every believer?

Next, you are all over the place instead of sticking with the text. What is this passage about? It is the REVEALING of the man of sin. That is what is being restrained. It has nothing to do with abortions or anything else except the revealing. That is what the text tells us: "And then that wicked man shall be revealed..."

So the Holy Spirit is restraining him, holding him back, preventing him from being revealed until the proper time. HOW does the Holy Spirit accomplish this? We are God's hands on earth. We are His voice on earth. We have the authority on earth. Remember, it is still the devil's planet: he is the god of this world. So in truth, the only authority the Holy Spirit has in worldly affairs is to use members of the body of Christ that DOES have authority. It is when the church us removed, suddenly the Holy Spirit will have no believers in whom he can work through.

Just thinking out loud here: it seems the Jewish temple will have to be build very shortly after the rapture or just before, since the man of sin will be revealed soon after the church is taken out of the way. I think Paul's meaning is that he will be revealed when He enters the Jewish temple and declares he is God. (Just a side thought.)
 
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iamlamad

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Did you actually read Mark 13:24-27?

How do you interpret this? Does it not say the angels will gather the elect from the ends of the earth? You say that's how we know it's a reference to the rapture, so why do you not accept this text as referring to the rapture?

How does it not fit. You can see that 1 Thess 4:13-17 says Christ will have the dead in Christ (their souls) with Him, can't you? Those are the ones gathered from heaven.

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
What happens in heaven before Christ comes is not a part of Paul's gathering. HIS gathering is gathering all who have risen up into the air around this planet. Paul's rapture / gathering has nothing to do with heaven. You are just trying to make a verse fit where it really doesn't.
 
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BABerean2

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What happens in heaven before Christ comes is not a part of Paul's gathering. HIS gathering is gathering all who have risen up into the air around this planet. Paul's rapture / gathering has nothing to do with heaven. You are just trying to make a verse fit where it really doesn't.


Pretrib Paradox, by former Pretrib believer Steven Straub:


.
 
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iamlamad

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If they were the same thing that would be bad for the Pretrib doctrine.
Can you explain the difference to us?



Luke 21:24

(ESV) They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(ESV+) They will fall by the edge of the sword and R17be led captive among all nations, and R18Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, R19until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(Geneva) And they shall fall on the edge of the sword, and shalbe led captiue into all nations, and Hierusalem shalbe troden vnder foote of the Gentiles, vntill the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled
.
(GW) Swords will cut them down, and they will be carried off into all nations as prisoners. Nations will trample Jerusalem until the times allowed for the nations to do this are over.

(KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(KJV+) AndG2532 they shall fallG4098 by the edgeG4750 of the sword,G3162 andG2532 shall be led away captiveG163 intoG1519 allG3956 nations:G1484 andG2532 JerusalemG2419 shall beG2071 trodden downG3961 ofG5259 the Gentiles,G1484 untilG891 the timesG2540 of the GentilesG1484 be fulfilled.G4137

(NKJV) And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

(YLT) and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.
.
Did you not read in Rev. 11:1-2 how the city will be trampled for 42 months? Just so you know, these two verses are about the man of sin moving to Jerusalem just before he will enter the temple there. He must ARRIVE in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple there. He will arrive with Gentile armies. THEY are who will trample the city.
 
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BABerean2

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THEY are who will trample the city.


Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about what happened to Jerusalem during 70 AD.


It is confirmed below by Christ.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


.
 
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iamlamad

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I don't know what context problem you're referring to here. I don't understand your question, either. It says the man of sin would have to be revealed before the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs. Do you see a problem with that?

Please clarify what this huge context problem is that you're seeing and also please clarify your question and why you're asking it.
Please note:
6 And now you know what is restrained, so that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity is already at work. He who is now restrained shall be so only until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then that wicked man shall be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and abolish with the brightness of His coming;

See the parallelism? what these verses are telling us is that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restraining power or force is "taken out of the way."

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that Day shall not come unless an apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed - the Son of Perdition -

It is the same parallels, with the man of sin revealed. Notice, "IS revealed." This tells us that the restraining power has been "taken out of the way." And it has to be in verse 3a.

Then Paul's strange words: "now you know what is restraining..." HOW do we know, Paul? Why would Paul write those words unless he just TOLD US? In fact, he did.

What word or words in 3a could possibly be something or anything "taken out of the way?" Could evil restrain evil? Hardly! A falling away could not restrain evil. You already said it is the power of the Holy Spirit restraining. Therefore, by your own words, somewhere in 3a the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Therefore, the object is the find the word or words that COULD MEAN a restraining force taken out of the way.
 
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iamlamad

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Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about what happened to Jerusalem during 70 AD.


It is confirmed below by Christ.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


.
Not bible scholars in the evangelical premil camp.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Wow! Finally I see a glimmer of hope here!
Hope for what exactly?

Yes, of course it is the Holy Spirit that restrains wickedness. But how do you understand the Holy Spirit being "taken out of the way?" Will this just be a sovereign work of God? And how can He since the Holy Spirit has promised to stay inside every believer?
It can't have anything to do with the removal of the church because it says the man of sin is revealed and the falling away occurs BEFORE the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him.

It's simply a case of God no longer contending with wicked people by calling them to repentance through the Holy Spirit and instead giving people over to their wicked desires as Paul explains later in the chapter.

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This passage clearly shows that an increase in wickedness is part of the theme of what Paul was talking about in 2 Thess 2. And I showed in verse 7 how it is lawlessness or wickedness that is being held back along with the revealing of the man of sin. Wickedness was already occurring, but it was held back by God's restraining influence from being completely out of control so that the gospel could be preached into the whole world.

Next, you are all over the place instead of sticking with the text. What is this passage about? It is the REVEALING of the man of sin. That is what is being restrained. It has nothing to do with abortions or anything else except the revealing. That is what the text tells us: "And then that wicked man shall be revealed..."
I'm not all over the place at all. You are very selective in which parts of scripture you pay attention to and which parts you don't take into account (for some reason). Did you somehow miss this:

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

This verse indicates that lawlessness is also being held back (how did you miss that?) and not just the revealing of the man of sin. This is why seeing verse 3 as saying the man of sin being revealed and a falling away from the faith must occur first before the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.

The idea that the overall level of wickedness in the world would increase in the days before Christ came is something Jesus taught as well.

Matthew 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So the Holy Spirit is restraining him, holding him back, preventing him from being revealed until the proper time. HOW does the Holy Spirit accomplish this? We are God's hands on earth. We are His voice on earth. We have the authority on earth. Remember, it is still the devil's planet: he is the god of this world. So in truth, the only authority the Holy Spirit has in worldly affairs is to use members of the body of Christ that DOES have authority. It is when the church us removed, suddenly the Holy Spirit will have no believers in whom he can work through.
I completely disagree with your way of looking at this. You should consider an alternative view which is that there will be a mass falling away from the church and that it would become weak and ineffective and THAT would contribute to the increase in wickedness. In that view there is no need to take the church off the earth in order for the Holy Spirit's restraining influence to be taken away.

Of course, the Holy Spirit can influence people directly without having to do it through people if He wants, too. That is how I became saved. The church I attended growing up had little affect on me. It was weak. Very little passion was shown for reaching the lost there. But, it appears that God will stop contending with people's wickedness during that time just like in Noah's day because He will have had enough at that point and will give people over to their wickedness (again, this type of thing can be seen in Romans 1:24-32 as well).

Just thinking out loud here: it seems the Jewish temple will have to be build very shortly after the rapture or just before, since the man of sin will be revealed soon after the church is taken out of the way. I think Paul's meaning is that he will be revealed when He enters the Jewish temple and declares he is God. (Just a side thought.)
Can you explain to me how a future Jewish, non-Christian temple would be something that Paul would call "the temple of God"? I don't believe he would do that.

It looks like Paul understood "the temple of God" differently than you do.

1 Cor 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The "man of sin" is not a future "Antichrist" individual as some believe. Instead, it is a general term used to refer to wicked people. It's basically the opposite to "the man of God" mentioned here:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Obviously, this passage is not speaking of an individual Man of God, but is rather speaking of men (and women) of God in general because it's speaking of something that applies to all people of God. I understand the reference to "the man of sin" in a similar way.

I believe the reference to the man of sin sitting in the temple of God is a figurative reference to people pretending to be part of the church (sitting in the temple of God) but instead they are hypocrites and think they have no need for God, thereby making themselves God.

In case you have trouble understanding how someone sitting in the temple of God can be taken figuratively, look at this passage:

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Obviously, Satan doesn't have a literal seat that wicked people sit on. This is just referring to people doing evil deeds based on Satan's influence. Note that I'm not directly equating figuratively sitting in Satan's seat with sitting in the temple of God here. I'm only giving an example of figuratively sitting in a spiritual place.

The "man of sin" sitting in the temple of God should be understood similarly in that the man of sin (sinful man in general) doesn't literally sit in a physical temple of God but rather dwells where God's people dwell pretending to represent God but they are wolves in sheep's clothing instead.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What happens in heaven before Christ comes is not a part of Paul's gathering. HIS gathering is gathering all who have risen up into the air around this planet. Paul's rapture / gathering has nothing to do with heaven. You are just trying to make a verse fit where it really doesn't.
I backed up my statements with scripture and you respond with nothing but opinion with no scriptural support. And you don't bother taking the time to show how you interpret the passages I referenced differently. So, please do me a favor.

Can you please tell me how you interpret this passage:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, following that distress,“‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Can you please tell me how you interpret this verse:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Also, please tell me why "those who have fallen asleep in Him" that are with Jesus when He comes can't be the same as the elect that are gathered from heaven.
 
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BABerean2

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Not bible scholars in the evangelical premil camp.

John Darby's commentary:

Luke 21:1-38
The Lord's discourse in chapter 21 displays the character of the Gospel in a peculiar manner. The spirit of grace, in contrast with the Judaic spirit, is seen in the account of the poor widow's offering. But the Lord's prophecy requires more detailed notice. Verse 6 (Luk_21:9), as we saw at the end of chapter 19, speaks only of the destruction of Jerusalem as she then stood. This is true also of the disciples' question. They say nothing of the end of the age. The Lord afterwards enters upon the duties and the circumstances of His disciples previous to that hour. In Verse 8 (Luk_21:8) it is said, "The time draweth near," which is not found in Matthew. He goes much more into detail with regard to their ministry during that period, encourages them, promises them necessary help. Persecution should turn to them for a testimony. From the middle of Verse 11 to the end of Verse 19 (Luk_21:11-19) we have details relative to His disciples, that are not found in the corresponding passage of Matthew. They present the general state of things in the same sense, adding the condition of the Jews, of those especially who, more or less, professedly received the word. The whole stream of testimony, as rendered in connection with Israel, but extending to the nations, is found in Matthew to the end of Verse 14 (Luk_21:14). In Luke it is the coming service of the disciples, until the moment when the judgment of God should put an end to that which was virtually terminated by the rejection of Christ. Consequently the Lord says nothing in Verse 20 (Luk_21:20) of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, but gives the fact of the siege of Jerusalem, and its then approaching desolation — not the end of the age, as in Matthew. These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live. There is a break here in the discourse. Its principal subject is ended; but there are still some events of the last scene to be revealed, which close the history of this Gentile supremacy.
We shall see also that, although it is the commencement of the judgment, from which Jerusalem will not arise until all is accomplished and the song of Isaiah 40 is addressed to her, nevertheless, the great tribulation is not mentioned here. There is great distress, and wrath upon the people, as was indeed the case in the siege of Jerusalem by Titus; and the Jews were also led away captive. Neither is it said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." Nevertheless, without designating the epoch, but after having spoken of the times of the Gentiles, the end of the age comes. There are signs in heaven, distress on earth, a mighty movement in the waves of human population. The heart of man, moved by a prophetic alarm, foresees the calamities which, still unknown, are threatening him; for all the influences that govern men are shaken. Then shall they see the Son of man, once rejected from the earth, coming from heaven with the ensigns of Jehovah, with power and great glory — the Son of man, of whom this Gospel has always spoken. There the prophecy ends. We have not here the gathering together of the elect Israelites, who had been dispersed, of which Matthew speaks.
That which follows consists of exhortations, in order that the day of distress may be a token of deliverance to the faith of those who, trusting in the Lord, obey the voice of His servant. The "generation" (a word already explained when considering Matthew) should not pass away till all was fulfilled. The length of the time that has elapsed since then, and that must elapse until the end, is left in darkness. Heavenly things are not measured by dates. Moreover that moment is hidden in the knowledge of the Father. Still heaven and earth should pass away, but not the words of Jesus. He then tells them that, as dwelling on earth, they must be watchful, lest their own hearts should be overcharged with things that would sink them into this world, in the midst of which they were to be witnesses. For that day would come as a snare upon all those who had their dwelling here, who were rooted here. They were to watch and pray, in order to escape all those things, and to stand in the presence of the Son of man. This is still the great subject of our Gospel. To be with Him, as those who have escaped from the earth, to be among the 144,000 on Mount Zion, will be an accomplishment of this blessing, but the place is not named; so that, supposing the faithfulness of those whom He was personally addressing, the hope awakened by His words would be fulfilled in a more excellent manner in His heavenly presence in the day of glory.


.
 
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iamlamad

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Hope for what exactly?

It can't have anything to do with the removal of the church because it says the man of sin is revealed and the falling away occurs BEFORE the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him.
Hope? That you and I will agree on something in this passage. I had serious doubts.


It can't have anything to do with the removal of the church because it says the man of sin is revealed and the falling away occurs BEFORE the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him.
Let's clarify this, for it is error.
Two events have to be seen before one will know that the Day of the Lord (NOT THE RAPTURE) has started and they are IN IT.

"it[ the Day of the Lord from the previous verse] will not be ( or it will not be present) unless the apostasia comes first and the man of sin is revealed - the Son of Perdition - [They thought the Day had come and they were then in it. What Paul is telling us is, when someone sees the significant departing (Apostasia) and then sees the revealing, they will then KNOW the Day has started and they are now in it.] [Note, the pink italics words are added by translators.]

According to Paul in 1 Thes, Jesus coming will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. Not to mention, it will be His coming for the catching up of the saints.
Revelation timeline:
Rapture, (just before the 6th seal) Day of the Lord (at the 6th seal) , the Revealing (chapter 11)

So by the time of the revealing, has the Day started? CHECK!

Therefore, this verse most certainly CAN have to do with the removal of the church. After all, that is the THEME of the passage.

Note: Verse two states that the day "be at hand." A much better translation would be "be present." The Amp. has it
"to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come." So when someone sees these two events, one of which must come first, before the other, they will now the DAY has already come.

I still say, a "falling away" is not something 'taken out of the way" and would not be a restraining force. It just does not fit.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hope? That you and I will agree on something in this passage. I had serious doubts.
It's about the only thing we agree on in that passage, but I agree that it's cause for celebration when we do agree on something.

It can't have anything to do with the removal of the church because it says the man of sin is revealed and the falling away occurs BEFORE the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him.
Let's clarify this, for it is error.
Two events have to be seen before one will know that the Day of the Lord (NOT THE RAPTURE) has started and they are IN IT.

"it[ the Day of the Lord from the previous verse] will not be ( or it will not be present) unless the apostasia comes first and the man of sin is revealed - the Son of Perdition - [They thought the Day had come and they were then in it. What Paul is telling us is, when someone sees the significant departing (Apostasia) and then sees the revealing, they will then KNOW the Day has started and they are now in it.] [Note, the pink italics words are added by translators.]

According to Paul in 1 Thes, Jesus coming will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. Not to mention, it will be His coming for the catching up of the saints.
Revelation timeline:
Rapture, (just before the 6th seal) Day of the Lord (at the 6th seal) , the Revealing (chapter 11)

So by the time of the revealing, has the Day started? CHECK!

Therefore, this verse most certainly CAN have to do with the removal of the church. After all, that is the THEME of the passage.

Note: Verse two states that the day "be at hand." A much better translation would be "be present." The Amp. has it
"to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come." So when someone sees these two events, one of which must come first, before the other, they will now the DAY has already come.

I still say, a "falling away" is not something 'taken out of the way" and would not be a restraining force. It just does not fit.
I disagree 100% with almost everything you said there. In this case, our disagreement is partly caused by our respective opinions of the English translators of the various English translations of the Bible. I believe that they were all accurate and knew what they were doing when translating this passage and you think they all translated it incorrectly.

We can't possibly agree on what the passage is saying as long as that is the case since we're not even interpreting the same text. I'm interpreting it based on what our English translations say and you're interpreting it based on what the iamlamad translation says despite you not being a Greek expert while the translators all are/were. So, it's pointless to continue this particular discussion of that passage as long as that is the case.
 
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Freedm

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It is the definition. Death spiritually only means separation. It does not mean becoming horizontal or ceasing to function.

But physical death DOES mean becoming horizontal and ceasing to function. Resurrection in the KJV comes from the greek word "ä-nä'-stä-ses" And the second part of this compound word is STANDING - meaning, vertical, not horizontal. The very word "resurrection" means to take someone horizontal and not functioning to a vertical standing position and functioning. Sorry, but this just does not fit being disconnected or separated from God.
But it's the same for the definition of death. Oxford dictionaries defines death as the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue, and so this requires physical cells or tissue, essentially ruling out the possibility of a spiritual death. Yet despite the definition, you accept the possibility of a spiritual death. How then can you use the definition of resurrection as a reason to deny the possibility of a spiritual resurrection? You're simply being inconsistent.
 
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Freedm

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On the other hand, what in the world can we do with "but the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years were over?" That is about as plain as a sentence can be in English.
And yet many people make an assumption out of that sentence which is not justified. The assumption is that only the rest of the dead were raised when the 1000 years were over. It doesn't actually say that, but that is your assumption, is it not?
 
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Freedm

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Simple: it does not fit. Our spirits did not cease to function and give life to our bodies because they were Separated from God. What they did in that state is become a sin generator.

If "dead" meant to cease to function, the entire human race would never have started, because it is the human spirit in a body that gives that body life. Cain would have been still born, as would every other child Adam and Eve had. It only means separated from God, but very much alive and functioning. Therefore "resurrection" does not fit.

Let me just repeat here: Paul said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ".

Forgive me if I misunderstand but it really sounds like you're denying that we were dead before Christ's resurrection. Are you denying that we were dead?
 
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Freedm

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Which means this physical body is gone forever. We leave Adam behind and enter the Christ body. It happens at death, immediately. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. No sheol, no Abraham's bosom, and definitely no sitting around waiting for a new body. It happened with Christ on the Cross. It has been waiting since then, symbolically.
Well, we could argue about the transformation of our bodies requiring our old physical bodies to be "gone forever" or whether the atoms are simply reorganized, just as we could argue about the "new" earth not really being new but "renewed", I think it doesn't really matter either way.

More important is the timing of our transformation. Although I fear we may be straying off topic a bit here, I would like to argue that our transformation does not happen immediately at death, but rather on the last day.
 
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keras

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I would like to argue that our transformation does not happen immediately at death, but rather on the last day.
The Last Day; of God's Plan for mankind, must be the final day before the Eternal state.
Which happens after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then; the Book of Life will be opened, Revelation 20:11-15, and immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in that Book.

Any beliefs about a 'transformation', or getting 'glorified bodies' before that final Judgment, are false and will never happen.
 
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