want to talk about OSAS?

[Bible Highlighter]

was Moses saved ?

And your doctrine teaches Peter was lost since no hypocrites are saved.

Believes can temporarily lose salvation via by sin and be forgiven and saved again if they confess of their sins to the Lord and they forsake them. That is why it grieves believers to sin. Not only are they hurting God, but they are destroying their own soul by their sin, as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

was Moses saved ?

And your doctrine teaches Peter was lost since no hypocrites are saved.

So you wouldn't care if a child grew up to be the next George Sodini by overhearing you about how you believe king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why I don't believe you are for holy living as a part of being one of God's saved people. Your trying to prove believers can also sin and still be saved. That's not holy livng. Hello?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Believes can temporarily lose salvation via by sin and be forgiven and saved again if they confess of their sins to the Lord and they forsake them. That is why it grieves believers to sin. Not only are they hurting God, but they are destroying their own soul by their sin, as well.

sure believe whatever you want your god like the changing tides and wind takes people in and out of salvation like an on and off switch. I want no part of that god. no thank you as you are proving a works based salvation which depends upon you and not God for your salvation.

Its exactly what Paul wars against in Galatians 2 about being perfected in the flesh after starting by the spirit in faith. the law is what perfects you not faith in Christ.

I'm afraid I see you teaching just like you see calvins teaching as false. You are promoting legalism, that obedience to the law is what keeps you saved.

Its basically sinless perfectionism you are promoting by law-keeping. Paul has some unkind works for that in Galatians 1 and Galatians 2.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So you wouldn't care if a child grew up to be the next George Sodini by overhearing you about how you believe king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

I'm not into your hypothetical scenarios I've already told you that several times.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not into your hypothetical scenarios I've already told you that several times.

Jesus used real world examples all the time. Jesus even accepted one from a Canaanite woman.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sure believe whatever you want your god like the changing tides and wind takes people in and out of salvation like an on and off switch. I want no part of that god. no thank you as you are proving a works based salvation which depends upon you and not God for your salvation.

Its exactly what Paul wars against in Galatians 2 about being perfected in the flesh after starting by the spirit in faith. the law is what perfects you not faith in Christ.

I'm afraid I see you teaching just like you see calvins teaching as false. You are promoting legalism, that obedience to the law is what keeps you saved.

Its basically sinless perfectionism you are promoting by law-keeping. Paul has some unkind works for that in Galatians 1 and Galatians 2.

hope this helps !!!

You fail to understand that Paul was arguing against Circumcision Salvationism.

See Galatians 5:2.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, I got other errands I got to do today. So any current discussions will have to wait.

 

[RickReads]

Because you talk about how we are elected to salvation like a Calvinist does.

In addition, in post #1018 you said,

“Do you get it? Jesus is the One who makes you faultless.
It`s not something you did yourself.” ~ Quote by: RickReads.​

This implies that God forces things upon you (Which is the hallmark of Calvinism). Sure, you may claim to not be Calvinist, but you believe in Preserverance of the Saints or OSAS (Which is basically God enforcing His will upon a person after they make a one time decision).



No. It's the position of the Bible.

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

Acts 5:1-11 says,
[1] ”But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, [2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. [3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? [4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. [5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. [6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. [7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. [8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. [9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. [10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. [11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

Tell me what I believe, Tell me why I believe it, then refute me based on the fiction you write.

Seems to be a lot of that around here.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

Meaning, works have to be there.



Let's examine James 2:14-26.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims they have faith but they have no resulting evidential works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

Read the following then answer this question. Can you get to heaven with faith alone or do you have to take care of the poor in order to get there.

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Read full chapter

Fact is, we can get to heaven on faith, but where so many of you choose to get it wrong is that faith in Christ means we do as he says to do.

There are those who so badly want to be able to get away with doing little or nothing, that they refuse to believe something that is so obvious to so many of us, having faith means listening to, and obeying Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Tell me what I believe, Tell me why I believe it, then refute me based on the fiction you write.

Seems to be a lot of that around here.

By what you said, I can get a gauge as to what you believe. I see most versions of OSAS as justifying sin. However, I am actually being kind in that I am supporting the view that you are for holy living as a part of being an OSAS proponent and you are not the type of OSAS proponent who believes they can live like the devil and still be saved all because they have a belief alone on Jesus. So I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that your version of OSAS is better than the worst version of OSAS. So then what do you mean by your following words?

Do you get it? Jesus is the One who makes you faultless.
It`s not something you did yourself.” ~ Quote by: RickReads.​

Are you saying that Jesus imputes His righteousness to you despite how you live or what you do? Is that what you mean? If not, then please explain it to me and tell me how this is not a license to turn God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us against.

Side Note:

If you believe chastisement is an effective deterrent to get the believer to stop justifying a lifestyle of mortal sin that the Bible condemns, I do not believe this truly will deter every believer or even work at all. For even unbelievers in life go through the same life challenges that a believer can go through. In other words, if they believe they can sin and still get to Heaven (despite their sin), then that is exactly what they are going to do. Bad circumstances in life can be just ruled out of their thinking and they may not even read it as chastisement. But even if they thought it was chastisement, they still got their golden ticket, so why change? They really have nothing to lose but some rewards that they do not even know about. They can have their best life now and also live it up in the kingdom when they die.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So you wouldn't care if a child grew up to be the next George Sodini by overhearing you about how you believe king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

King David went to Hell? I didn't know that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

King David went to Hell? I didn't know that.

That is a large leap of conclusion based off of what I said. Believers who abide in unconfessed mortal sin abide in spiritual death. They need to confess and forsake sin in order to maintain mercy and salvation (after being saved by God's grace). Obviously king David confessed of his sins to the Lord and received forgiveness and the joy of his salvation back in Psalms 51 (as it states).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

King David went to Hell? I didn't know that.

The parable of the prodigal son is proof that a believer can have salvation and then lose it, and then regain their salvation back again. How is this so? Well, if you were to read the parable in Luke 15 again sometime, you will discover that when the son came home from his prodigal life of squandering his inheritance on prostitutes and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was “dead” and now he is “alive AGAIN.” The father said this two times. This means that the son was dead spiritually when he was living a prodigal life in his sins, and when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, he became alive AGAIN spiritually. For he was alive spiritually once before he squandered his inheritance. James 5:19-20 also teaches this same truth.

 

[RickReads]

Well, I am actually being kind in that I supporting the view that you are for holy living as a part of being an OSAS proponent and you are not the type of OSAS proponent who believes they can live like the devil and still be saved all because they have a belief alone on Jesus. So I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that your version of OSAS is better than the worst version of OSAS. So then what do you mean by your following words?

Do you get it? Jesus is the One who makes you faultless.
It`s not something you did yourself.” ~ Quote by: RickReads.​

Are you saying that Jesus imputes His righteousness to you despite how you live or what you do? Is that what you mean? If not, then please explain it to me and tell me how this is not a license to turn God's grace into a license for immorality that Jude 1:4 warns us against.

I`m no more OSAS then I am a Calvin. I couldn`t tell you what those two words mean with absolute certainty. It`s only natural that I will take exception when somebody criticizes me for things I don`t believe in and in some cases never even heard of.

Your "quote by RickReads" is Jude 24, I believe it because my Bible says it.

My beliefs are based on the Gospel of Paul. Nothing else.

Paul taught salvation by the election, It`s a one time salvation that is permanent
Paul taught all scripture is profitable, hence the Jude quote.
Pauls answer to people who accuse him of of teaching to sin was to say he establishes the law Rom 3:31.

If you want to fight my belief system instead of fabricating fiction about me then you have to start fighting the doctrines of Paul.

I only used the term OSAS for purposes of participating in this discussion. It`s not a good manmade term but it`s not as bad as others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I`m no more OSAS then I am a Calvin. I couldn`t tell you what those two words mean with absolute certainty. It`s only natural that I will take exception when somebody criticizes me for things I don`t believe in and in some cases never even heard of.

Your "quote by RickReads" is Jude 24, I believe it because my Bible says it.

My beliefs are based on the Gospel of Paul. Nothing else.

Paul taught salvation by the election, It`s a one time salvation that is permanent
Paul taught all scripture is profitable, hence the Jude quote.
Pauls answer to people who accuse him of of teaching to sin was to say he establishes the law Rom 3:31.

If you want to fight my belief system instead of fabricating fiction about me then you have to start fighting the doctrines of Paul.

I only used the term OSAS for purposes of participating in this discussion. It`s not a good manmade term but it`s not as bad as others.

You said you are not for OSAS? So you don't believe that a believer is once saved always saved and that there are cases or situations that they can lose their salvation? If so, I have run into Free Will Baptists who say they reject OSAS, and yet they believe they can sin and still be saved. They believe the only way you can fall away is by rejecting Jesus. But if you reject OSAS like the Free Will Baptist, then why say salvation is permanent? For that is exactly what OSAS is saying.

As for you not being for Calvinism: Well, you said we are saved by election, and it is a one time salvation that is permanent. This is what Calvinists believe. They believe they are saved by an election and it is permanent, as well. The Bible teaches that the Israelites were an elected and chosen nation, but that does not mean they were all saved. The same is true for everyone else. They may be elected to salvation by what Christ done for us on the cross, but that does not mean all are saved (unless you are a Universalist).

Basically you are trying to act like you are different from others in what they believe, but it sounds like you are just copying them and trying to say you are different from them, when you are not. If I am wrong, then please explain it to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your "quote by RickReads" is Jude 24, I believe it because my Bible says it.

You did not correctly quote from Jude 1:24. You said:

Do you get it? Jesus is the One who makes you faultless.
It`s not something you did yourself.” ~ Quote by: RickReads.​

These words above here are your own words mixed with Scripture.

Here is what Jude 1:24 says,
“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,” (Jude 1:24).

First, it says that the Lord is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless. Just because He is able to do so does not mean He will despite what you do. Second, the part where you said, “It's not something you did yourself” is an addition to Scripture (Which suggests you did not have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your "quote by RickReads" is Jude 24, I believe it because my Bible says it.

When you read Jude 1:24: You also have to read Jude 1:4. It says:

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4) (KJB).

When folks tell me salvation is permanent, what happens when they fall into sin and they start to turn God's grace into a license for immorality?

 

[RickReads]

Side Note:

If you believe chastisement is an effective deterrent to get the believer to stop justifying a lifestyle of mortal sin that the Bible condemns, I do not believe this truly will deter every believer or even work at all. For even unbelievers in life go through the same life challenges that a believer can go through. In other words, if they believe they can sin and still get to Heaven (despite their sin), then that is exactly what they are going to do. Bad circumstances in life can be just ruled out of their thinking and they may not even read it as chastisement. But even if they thought it was chastisement, they still got their golden ticket, so why change? They really have nothing to lose but some rewards that they do not even know about. They can have their best life now and also live it up in the kingdom when they die.

Someone who has been scourged will suffer long after the initial agony. Per the symbolism anyone under chastisement is leading a miserable life. You are not getting God`s discipline program for His children. You act like you believe sinners are happy people. Your own sinful desires show when you call a life of sin the "best life". Don`t decieve yourself. I understand sins appeal but sinful pleasure is temporary. It`s destructive, harmful and it becomes the worst life not the best life.When a Christian falls away nothing good comes of it. It`s nothing to be jealous of and I speak from personal experience.