Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[Marilyn C]

Well put. This is damning for Dispensationalism teaching.

Glad you like something and that we can agree on where the `wedding` takes place - on earth, as no marriages in heaven.

 

[Marilyn C]

When is the marriage?

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready [hetoimos] went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

This parable speaks of Christ’s Coming and shows that He is Coming for those that are ready. The 5 virgins in this earthly story are a spiritual picture of the bride of Christ. The parable of the virgins supports the idea of a climactic Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

.

And as a Bible scholar SG you would well know that God often goes to the end of something and not give the details of in between at that point. eg. When the Lord read out of the book in the temple, He only read the first part of the sentence from Isaiah, why? because the second part was not then but much later in time.

`The Spirit of the Lord is upon me......to preach the acceptable year of the Lord....` (Luke 4: 18, compare Isa. 61: 2)

The second part of the sentence is, `and the Day of vengeance of our God;...` (Isa. 61: 2)

So we need to use all of God`s word to show when things are really happening.

 

[Marilyn C]

Where in Revelation do we find the bride of Christ?

Undoubtedly the Church is Christ’s bride, but in Pretrib thinking the Church has already be removed before the tribulation. Pretrib theology has Christ having 2 brides, something that is absurd, unknown to Scripture, and extra-biblical.

In the 6th of 7 recaps in Revelation, Revelation 19:7-9 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (hetoimazo Strong’s 2090). And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This is the wedding! The marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper occurs at Revelation 19 (the end of the Pretrib tribulation, not the beginning as they intimate). This is when this union is consummated. The perfected Church (or bride) is joined to her bridegroom (Christ) forever in glorification.

In the 7th of 7 recaps in Revelation, Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5 confirms, speaking about the second coming and the connected ushering of the new heaven and new earth: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, [hetoimazo] as a bride adorned for her husband And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

The new heavens and new earth come with the appearing of Christ.

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Not only is it clear that “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. But we see the status of the wife; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The wife is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The wedding therefore is the consummating of the union between bridegroom and the bride or the catching away of the saints.

I am a pre-trib, but do not believe scripture tells us that we are a `bride.` We, the Body of Christ, the new man, are Christ`s very own Body. That is the closest relationship you can have.

And I agree again with you SG, (amazing) that that `wedding` takes place AFTER the trib.

However here we start to differ. So perhaps you would like to give specific scriptures that reveal to you that the Body of Christ is the `bride?`

 

[sovereigngrace]

And as a Bible scholar SG you would well know that God often goes to the end of something and not give the details of in between at that point. eg. When the Lord read out of the book in the temple, He only read the first part of the sentence from Isaiah, why? because the second part was not then but much later in time.

`The Spirit of the Lord is upon me......to preach the acceptable year of the Lord....` (Luke 4: 18, compare Isa. 61: 2)

The second part of the sentence is, `and the Day of vengeance of our God;...` (Isa. 61: 2)

So we need to use all of God`s word to show when things are really happening.

It is frustrating discussing with you. Once again, you fail to address one Scripture or one point. You have to do that because your teaching doesn't make sense. Numerous posts remain unanswered here and elsewhere. When your doctrine is exposed as erroneous you change track and fail to acknowledge your error.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again just an unsubstantiated opinion.

NT Scripture repeatedly shows the continuity of the people of God from the Old to the New. Your Apartheid Theology runs contrary to the teaching of Christ and the NT writers. You are obsessed at dividing the people of God up. We all know who wants to divide God's people. It is not God

There is no doubt that the Jews were the main focus of Christ’s earthly ministry. That situation continued on for a while throughout the book of Acts. But redemption didn’t stop there. His sheep were not limited to the house of Israel. His heart for Israel did not in any way diminish His intention to reach the Gentile nations with salvation. Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

 

[Marilyn C]

It is frustrating discussing with you. Once again, you fail to address one Scripture or one point. You have to do that because your teaching doesn't make sense. Numerous posts remain unanswered here and elsewhere. When your doctrine is exposed as erroneous you change track and fail to acknowledge your error.

it is only frustrating because we see from different view points. I quite understand what you are saying but you don`t seem to understand what I am saying as you have probably not heard it before. it only don`t make sense to you because of your view. And that is what I am trying to point out to you.

No I don`t change tact. We agreed on two points, amazing that the `wedding` in on earth and after the trib. That should be cause for appreciation of each other`s understanding.

 

[Marilyn C]

NT Scripture repeatedly shows the continuity of the people of God from the Old to the New. Your Apartheid Theology runs contrary to the teaching of Christ and the NT writers. You are obsessed at dividing the people of God up. We all know who wants to divide God's people. It is not God

There is no doubt that the Jews were the main focus of Christ’s earthly ministry. That situation continued on for a while throughout the book of Acts. But redemption didn’t stop there. His sheep were not limited to the house of Israel. His heart for Israel did not in any way diminish His intention to reach the Gentile nations with salvation. Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

You see many of your comments are putting down. I could rave on with lots of words too but I am trying to just keep to the scripture.

So the `one fold.` I agree, Amazing again. We, OT believers, B/C and others who come are all in God`s one family.

Then this is the part you have never been told or thought of - we have different inheritances promised to us, (as often in families). So then that is why we need to look at the inheritances. You shy away from areas you don`t like to look into. Why is that?

So I`m now addressing your picture of us all in together on the new earth, or is it the NJ, you haven`t told me which as you seem to think both.

So you think God who is omniscient, (all knowing) placed the fulfilment of His promise on sinful man, Israel. Of course God knew they couldn`t do the `if you keep...` That just exposes sinful man`s inability to every keep God`s laws unless Christ in in us or God`s laws are `written on their heart,` as scripture says.

So God knowing that Israel could not keep His law then wipes them, I hear you saying. So why did He make them in the first place? Why work with them over centuries when He very well knew they would rebel?

Enough questions for now. I do have plenty more as I`m sure you do too. I do like to talk on such things as God`s eternal purposes, as I see you do too. So let`s try and be gracious to each other and not put down those who have taught us, for we are still in the process of discussion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

it is only frustrating because we see from different view points. I quite understand what you are saying but you don`t seem to understand what I am saying as you have probably not heard it before. it only don`t make sense to you because of your view. And that is what I am trying to point out to you.

No I don`t change tact. We agreed on two points, amazing that the `wedding` in on earth and after the trib. That should be cause for appreciation of each other`s understanding.

I do understand Dispensationalism. I used to hold it. But like many, I abandoned it because of the clear teaching of Scripture. Your constant rejection and avoidance of multiple Scripture that forbids your theology exposes your beliefs.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You see many of your comments are putting down. I could rave on with lots of words too but I am trying to just keep to the scripture.

So the `one fold.` I agree, Amazing again. We, OT believers, B/C and others who come are all in God`s one family.

Then this is the part you have never been told or thought of - we have different inheritances promised to us, (as often in families). So then that is why we need to look at the inheritances. You shy away from areas you don`t like to look into. Why is that?

So I`m now addressing your picture of us all in together on the new earth, or is it the NJ, you haven`t told me which as you seem to think both.

So you think God who is omniscient, (all knowing) placed the fulfilment of His promise on sinful man, Israel. Of course God knew they couldn`t do the `if you keep...` That just exposes sinful man`s inability to every keep God`s laws unless Christ in in us or God`s laws are `written on their heart,` as scripture says.

So God knowing that Israel could not keep His law then wipes them, I hear you saying. So why did He make them in the first place? Why work with them over centuries when He very well knew they would rebel?

Enough questions for now. I do have plenty more as I`m sure you do too. I do like to talk on such things as God`s eternal purposes, as I see you do too. So let`s try and be gracious to each other and not put down those who have taught us, for we are still in the process of discussion.

My issue is with Dispensationalism. I am not trying to put you down. But dividing the people of God up is not the work of the Spirit of God. You know that. Christ came to unite. Amils simply advocate His heart on this and that of the NT writers.

Dispensational theologians do their best to put a wedge between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. They try to divide them into two unrelated entities. They advocate an apartheid between both and teach a separation theology.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The title `Lamb,` is only used in relationship to Israel and their sacrifices. Jesus is only spoken about `as a lamb,` when relating to the Body of Christ. Big difference there

Where are you getting that from? You continue to insult Christ with your doctrine and it's sad. You want to dishonor His sacrifice by reinstituting the inferior old covenant animal sacrifices. Now, you're trying to say that the title "Lamb" with a capital "L" applies to Israel rather than Christ? That's terrible. And very easily proven wrong.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The title "Lamb of God" is obviously not used here to describe Israel and their sacrifices but rather to Jesus and His sacrifice. This verse alone proves you wrong, but there are plenty more.

Have you never actually read the book of Revelation? The title "Lamb" is used in the book 33 times and it refers to Jesus every time and not to Israel even once. I'll just show a few examples.

Revelation 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

The passage above is clearly speaking about Jesus and His sacrifice and not Israel and its sacrifices. This passage proves you wrong again.

Revelation 12: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

This speaks of believers triumphing over their accuser (Satan) "by the blood of the Lamb" which is an obvious reference to Jesus. Your claim is proven wrong yet again.

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Another case of the title "Lamb" referring to Jesus. And there are many more. In order to claim that the title "Lamb" belongs to Israel rather than Jesus would require you to completely ignore the book of Revelation since He is referred to as the Lamb throughout the book.

Now you think you are the bride and marrying Christ. Are you telling me that the Lord is going to marry millions of men and women? I don`t need to tell you what that means, men.....women.....

Also remember that the Lord Himself said that there is no marrying in heaven for they are like the angels in that they do not marry. (Matt. 22: 30)

Your lack of spiritual discernment is shocking to me. We're not talking about an individual man marrying an individual woman here or an individual man marrying millions of men and women in the way you normally think of people getting married. My goodness. I wish you were joking here, but I can tell you're not.

No, Christ marrying His bride, the church, is a symbolic representation of His intimate spiritual relationship with His people. That's all. It has nothing to do with getting married in an earthly or worldly sense at all.

 

[BABerean2]

I am not interested I what sinful man says, only what God says in His word. And you should also.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You missed these words, `SOMETHING BETTER for us.` (Heb.11: 39)

When the Body of Christ is in its eternal setting in the highest, then when the NHNE comes, then the OT saints will come down in the New Jerusalem to the Universal realm and rule there.

I didn't miss anything. NT saints have had it better because we have had the privilege of living under the new covenant with its spiritual blessings because of the shed blood of Christ. But what verse 40 points out is that even though OT saints missed out on those spiritual blessings that we've enjoyed, they will still get to be made perfect with us when our bodies are perfected when Christ returns. And we will inherit the new earth together with them.

 

[jgr]

So you think God who is omniscient, (all knowing) placed the fulfilment of His promise on sinful man, Israel. Of course God knew they couldn`t do the `if you keep...` That just exposes sinful man`s inability to every keep God`s laws unless Christ in in us or God`s laws are `written on their heart,` as scripture says.

So God knowing that Israel could not keep His law then wipes them, I hear you saying. So why did He make them in the first place? Why work with them over centuries when He very well knew they would rebel?

At no time did God ever "place the fulfillment of His promise on sinful man, Israel".

That fulfillment was ever and always realized and fulfilled in His faithful and obedient covenant-keeping remnant within Israel.

They never disappeared from within Israel. God always protected and preserved them. He never "wiped" them. They did not rebel.

They were the true Israel, identified not by physical DNA, but by the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience.

They were the sole and exclusive Chosen People of God.

Dispensationalism depends for its survival and existence upon its obdurate refusal to differentiate between physical DNA and spiritual DNA as God's only criterion for identifying His Chosen People.

That refusal must ultimately and inevitably doom it, as the Church once again begins to recognize and recover its divine calling and destiny as the sole and exclusive Chosen People of God.

In whom "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Context, who is speaking to whom. The Lord is speaking to His disciples, (which were many) of Israel. The Lord was speaking about the character of those (in Israel) who would inherit the rulership on earth.

That is not the way you determine context. This is completely illogical. Just because He was speaking to His disciples doesn't mean what He said only applied to Israel. Do you think everything He said to the disciples only applied to Israel? If not then why would you assume that Matthew 5:5 only is speaking of meek Israelites inheriting the earth?

Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Rabbi Nicodemus when He said this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So, since Jesus was speaking to a rabbi of Israel there, does that mean John 3:16 only applies to the people of Israel?

 

[Timtofly]

In the 6th of 7 recaps in Revelation, Revelation 19:7-9 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (hetoimazo Strong’s 2090). And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This is the wedding! The marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper occurs at Revelation 19 (the end of the Pretrib tribulation, not the beginning as they intimate). This is when this union is consummated. The perfected Church (or bride) is joined to her bridegroom (Christ) forever in glorification.

This is funny, because there is no chronological time stamp placing 19 as happening after 16. 17 and 18 are historical.

After history is finished. It is also before the battle of Armageddon. Very ambiguous. It is after the 7th seal, and before the battle of Armageddon. If you wait for the the battle of Armageddon and think it is after that, you would be wrong. The battle is the post wedding gift. Because the wedding is mentioned in that chapter, in contrast to, all on earth who are about to die.

11 "Next I saw heaven opened, and there before me was a white horse. Sitting on it was the one called Faithful and True, and it is in righteousness that he passes judgment and goes to battle."

You have to prove chapter 19 is after a certain point. Otherwise it is after history, and if it is a recap any time after the Cross. And you claim 20 does not come after 19, but goes back to the Cross. Your recap should start at 17 and go to 22. You claim both 19 and 20 have to be recaps of the same period starting at the Cross.

In reality sans recap, 17-19 is the history of babel from Nimrod to Satan's 42 months. Where in your twist and turn recap teaching would you place the wedding, since being in chapter 19 is a contrast instead of a specific time frame in relation to things happening on earth. What happens in heaven is never outlined in Revelation.

So being specific on the wedding in heaven based on what chapter it is in is too ambiguous. Even the placement of the 1000 years after the battle of Armageddon is more specific, and you reject that despite being more specific than the wedding in heaven. What happens in heaven is not placed in Revelation so we have no time frame any where in Scripture to go by, and even less than the final Millennium. The Millennium is on earth, not in heaven and fits perfectly after the battle of Armageddon, which you declare is the end of humanity. You just deny the resurrection the next day. People will have to be resurrected either way. They are not forever dead in the NHNE.

 

[Marilyn C]

I do understand Dispensationalism. I used to hold it. But like many, I abandoned it because of the clear teaching of Scripture. Your constant rejection and avoidance of multiple Scripture that forbids your theology exposes your beliefs.

You do not understand the view I hold for it is not exactly like what you know as `Dispensationalism.` Remember we both agree that the `wedding` is ON and earth and AFTER the trib. See those are differences.

I am not rejecting and avoiding discussing your scriptures it is just that we are coming from different points of view and need to find what we agree on and go from there. We are discussing various points that are based on other points which we haven`t clarified.

Thus said since we both agree that the `wedding` is on earth and AFTER the trib, perhaps we can go on from there. We both also agree that the Lord then returns. From there we differ. So may I ask you -

Where do you see Christ ruling and reigning from at that time?

 

[Marilyn C]

My issue is with Dispensationalism. I am not trying to put you down. But dividing the people of God up is not the work of the Spirit of God. You know that. Christ came to unite. Amils simply advocate His heart on this and that of the NT writers.

Dispensational theologians do their best to put a wedge between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. They try to divide them into two unrelated entities. They advocate an apartheid between both and teach a separation theology.

I see God`s people from what ever century as part of His family. And as I`ve said before in families you have different inheritances. And these are all to do with Christ`s rulership in the different realms that He made for Himself.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

 

[Marilyn C]

Where are you getting that from? You continue to insult Christ with your doctrine and it's sad. You want to dishonor His sacrifice by reinstituting the inferior old covenant animal sacrifices. Now, you're trying to say that the title "Lamb" with a capital "L" applies to Israel rather than Christ? That's terrible. And very easily proven wrong.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The title "Lamb of God" is obviously not used here to describe Israel and their sacrifices but rather to Jesus and His sacrifice. This verse alone proves you wrong, but there are plenty more.

Have you never actually read the book of Revelation? The title "Lamb" is used in the book 33 times and it refers to Jesus every time and not to Israel even once. I'll just show a few examples.

Revelation 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

The passage above is clearly speaking about Jesus and His sacrifice and not Israel and its sacrifices. This passage proves you wrong again.

Revelation 12: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

This speaks of believers triumphing over their accuser (Satan) "by the blood of the Lamb" which is an obvious reference to Jesus. Your claim is proven wrong yet again.

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Another case of the title "Lamb" referring to Jesus. And there are many more. In order to claim that the title "Lamb" belongs to Israel rather than Jesus would require you to completely ignore the book of Revelation since He is referred to as the Lamb throughout the book.

Your lack of spiritual discernment is shocking to me. We're not talking about an individual man marrying an individual woman here or an individual man marrying millions of men and women in the way you normally think of people getting married. My goodness. I wish you were joking here, but I can tell you're not.

No, Christ marrying His bride, the church, is a symbolic representation of His intimate spiritual relationship with His people. That's all. It has nothing to do with getting married in an earthly or worldly sense at all.

The title `Lamb of God,` is Christ, we both agree. It shows His sacrificial heart and the sacrifice He did for sin. It also reveals the true sacrifice, Christ, whereas Israel sacrificed lambs in their tabernacle & temple rituals, which were a type of Christ to come.

As to the `marriage,` glad you don`t take it literally, but what does it mean to you spiritually?

 

[Marilyn C]

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

So God made a new nation and expected sinful man to fulfil His laws and when they didn`t He discarded them?

 

[Marilyn C]

I didn't miss anything. NT saints have had it better because we have had the privilege of living under the new covenant with its spiritual blessings because of the shed blood of Christ. But what verse 40 points out is that even though OT saints missed out on those spiritual blessings that we've enjoyed, they will still get to be made perfect with us when our bodies are perfected when Christ returns. And we will inherit the new earth together with them.

And where do you see Christ ruling and reigning then?