Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

[BABerean2]

Revelation was written decades after Paul's epistles. So no, Paul, nor Jesus, were referring to the trumpet judgements in Revelation.

All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which stands outside of time and space.


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[Jamdoc]

All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which stands outside of time and space.


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Paul wrote the epistles to communicate with the Corinthians. The Corinthians had not received the book of Revelation, so if Paul was referring to the 7 trumpet judgements in the wrath of God, that were nowhere in scripture, it would make no sense to them.
Feast of trumpets in the old testament would make sense, or, just that the coming of the Lord would be with a trumpet. But by no means was Paul trying to tell the Corinthians that the resurrection would happen at the end of the wrath of God, and he certainly wouldn't be telling the Thessalonians to comfort each other when they expected the day of the Lord to happen in their lifetime that they'd be bombarded by the wrath of God.
There's no comfort in the concept of God pouring out His wrath on believers.

 

[BABerean2]

Paul wrote the epistles to communicate with the Corinthians. The Corinthians had not received the book of Revelation, so if Paul was referring to the 7 trumpet judgements in the wrath of God, that were nowhere in scripture, it would make no sense to them.
Feast of trumpets in the old testament would make sense, or, just that the coming of the Lord would be with a trumpet. But by no means was Paul trying to tell the Corinthians that the resurrection would happen at the end of the wrath of God, and he certainly wouldn't be telling the Thessalonians to comfort each other when they expected the day of the Lord to happen in their lifetime that they'd be bombarded by the wrath of God.
There's no comfort in the concept of God pouring out His wrath on believers.

The Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.

Below we have the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, right after the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.
This passage is one of several which proves the book is not in chronological order.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


.................................

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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[Timtofly]

But, wouldn't they be mortal? Do you see them as living forever on the new earth despite being mortal? Or do you think they would all eventually die? If so, what happens to them after they die and where does scripture speak of that?

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

They will follow Jesus Christ into the New Earth. They will keep doing what God tells them to do. They have everlasting life in incorruptible bodies. That "mortal" part is glorification. They will not be glorified. Those who are glorified are not going to be able to procreate period. They are like the angels forever. I do not even seeing them have a will or freedom of choice. The New Jerusalem will be full with those of the church over the last 6000 years.

Those in the Millennium on earth and then in the New Earth, will be able to do on earth what we do now. SPREAD OUT and fill the earth as they see fit in obedience to Christ of course. Some will still think they can do better, but rebellion will not be tolerated until the New Earth, but it is anyone's guess after the New Earth happens, because it is not going to be this reality at all.

 

[Timtofly]

Please answer the question. Where are they?

All the "elect" the church have been in Paradise since Jesus Christ took them there on Resurrection Sunday. Since then, the church enters Paradise each time a believer dies. They will be there until the New Jerusalem comes down to earth.

If you think the elect are a tiny portion of the church and split the church up into 4 different types of heavenly citizens, where do you place them?

 

[Timtofly]

The NHNE comes after the millennium/Satan's season not at the beginning as you argue. Check Rev 20 and 21. Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

So you force your theology on the text and claim death is in heaven and earth, after the second coming. You claim death still happens even after Death is defeated, and no longer exist.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.

Below we have the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, right after the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.
This passage is one of several which proves the book is not in chronological order.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


.................................

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

The way I look at it, Chapter 11 fast forwards to final judgement, where chapters 18, 19, and 20 are details that kinda got skipped but are things that happen.
and yes the wrath and tribulations are different things.
The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God, not tribulation.
The wrath of God happens after His coming.
I see Him coming in chapter 6 after the 6th seal, and the 7th seal gives the angels the trumpets. So, rapture, then wrath, then judgement.

Chapter 14, again, after tribulations, but before the vials.
Rapture, wrath, judgement.

 

[Timtofly]

This is surely the greatest and swiftest religious turn-around in history. Billions as the sand of the sea jump camps. How could they do this?

How can millions switch camp from pre-mill to a-mill? People get tired of God’s Word and change it.

 

[Timtofly]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that this time Jesus only said "the hour is coming" rather than "the hour is coming, and now is". That is because this time he was only referring to a future event rather than an ongoing event. And He made it clear that only one hour or time is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Not two hours/times. That means the lost will be resurrected at the same time as those who are saved

You are changing the words and definitions. Doing good and doing evil is not the saved and lost. Salvation is not works, good or bad. The church is not at the GWT. Jesus has been calling humans out of the graves nonstop since the Cross and Lazarus prior to prove to His disciples it is a True testimony.

We are not saved by doing good period. Jesus' last role call will be at the GWT, and if some did good and enter in at the last hour, there is nothing you can believe or do to change that. Can anyone play life's "lottery" and justly think doing good will get them by? NO?

Yet you force that as truth when you claim it applies to the church, and the Second Coming. You contradict more Scripture than I do leaving it for the GWT when it does say they will be judged by their works.

"Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done." No one knows the outcome, and can bank on ending up in righteousness by doing good.

That is clearly more ambiguous than in verse 4 where it clearly says, at the beginning of a 1000 year period, many will be resurrected, judged, and given incorruptible bodies, that will not stand at the GWT and face the second death.

 

[Timtofly]

Notice in verse 17 that it says "the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind". That concept seems familiar. I wonder why? Oh yeah, because that's what it indicates here as well:

I keep telling you that when all physically die, those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 will not remember the former life of sin, but given incorruptible bodies. You keep rejecting the resurrection prior to the 1000 years. You place it back at the Cross. Do you think those in heaven cannot see what is going on down here, but are totally clueless? There is no sin, sinful nature, nothing of this present evil world, nor Satan either. If it was happening now, we would ask, "Who is Satan?". At the end when Satan is loosed is only when they find a friend in Satan brand new. Like Satan some will have hundreds of years of discontent stored up about how God does things.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The word soul is not mentioned once. In fact Paul seems to think both have bodies. Bodies come with Christ, bodies rise to meet Christ. Dead and alive in Christ both with bodies. Unless your body stays on the ground and just your soul rises into the air?

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone who thinks Christ will be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after the Second Coming, needs to read the New Testament again.

What is an accident? No one ever told those in the Millennium what an accident was.

 

[Timtofly]

Where is the "birth" of an infant in the text?

Where does an infant come from?

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 12:5 is a clear reference to Christ's ascension. So, that establishes the timing of the war in heaven. Knowing that Jesus ascended to heaven long ago and is now our Mediator in heaven on our behalf, how is it that you think Satan has any cause to be in heaven any longer to accuse us? Do you think Jesus our King and Mediator who defeated Satan on the cross would allow that? I certainly do not. So, I believe you are mistaken on that.

How can there be a Mediator without a lawyer bringing accusations? He is our Mediator because Satan is constantly accusing the church on earth of wrong doing.

 

[Marilyn C]

First, this will never happen. Second, what you present is an unmitigated disaster. Thank God it will never happen.

It has all yet to play out SG.

BTW When God created a new nation called Israel and promised them great promises, was that all a lie? You see God in His omniscience, (all knowing) knew that Israel as a nation would rebel. So was God entrusting the outcome of His purposes to a nation of fallen humanity, that couldn`t live up to the law He gave them?

Seems like that is what you are saying of God, that He couldn`t fulfill His promises to Israel.

 

[Jamdoc]

On the "unmitigated disaster"
what's a disaster about 1000 years where more people will get saved?

 

[BABerean2]

Seems like that is what you are saying of God, that He couldn`t fulfill His promises to Israel.

The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.
He is the one seed to whom the Abrahamic promise was made.

His ultimate promise was fulfilled at Calvary in John 19:30.

"It is finished."

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[BABerean2]

You are changing the words and definitions. Doing good and doing evil is not the saved and lost. Salvation is not works, good or bad. The church is not at the GWT. Jesus has been calling humans out of the graves nonstop since the Cross and Lazarus prior to prove to His disciples it is a True testimony.

We are not saved by doing good period. Jesus' last role call will be at the GWT, and if some did good and enter in at the last hour, there is nothing you can believe or do to change that. Can anyone play life's "lottery" and justly think doing good will get them by? NO?

Yet you force that as truth when you claim it applies to the church, and the Second Coming. You contradict more Scripture than I do leaving it for the GWT when it does say they will be judged by their works.

"Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done." No one knows the outcome, and can bank on ending up in righteousness by doing good.

That is clearly more ambiguous than in verse 4 where it clearly says, at the beginning of a 1000 year period, many will be resurrected, judged, and given incorruptible bodies, that will not stand at the GWT and face the second death.

We are saved by His good works.

Based on what you are saying, some people have been good enough to save themselves at the judgment of the dead. This idea cannot be found in the New Testament.

Those Saints in the Old Testament were saved by faith in the Messiah who was to come.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.


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[sovereigngrace]

It has all yet to play out SG.

BTW When God created a new nation called Israel and promised them great promises, was that all a lie? You see God in His omniscience, (all knowing) knew that Israel as a nation would rebel. So was God entrusting the outcome of His purposes to a nation of fallen humanity, that couldn`t live up to the law He gave them?

Seems like that is what you are saying of God, that He couldn`t fulfill His promises to Israel.

Not so. I am saying the opposite. Natural Israel could never fulfill the demands of God because of sin. That is why Jesus came. He is true Israel. He did what man could never do. We are not waiting for some alleged age for Israel to get their act together. We are watching men of all nations now enter into faithful Israel - the only Israel acceptable unto God.

The old covenant was based upon the faithfulness of man and consequently failed.
The new covenant was based upon the faithfulness of Christ and consequently gloriously succeeded.

Sadly, Dispys are fixated with the wrong Israel and the wrong covenant. That is why the have to invent some future age to fulfill the fulfilled promises that have already been realized in Christ.

They want to rebuild a redundant temple, restart the pointless slaughter of countless of innocent animals and resurrect the long abolished Aaronic priesthood. This is an offense to the ministry and achievements of Christ, NT Christianity and the finished work of the cross.

The millennium is here. Christ is reigning over His enemies. True Israel is prospering through the joy of sins forgiven and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Correct. RR also banned post-trib premils and postmils.

RR banned me. I am a spam.