Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[iamlamad]

That is symbolic, also. Do you actually think that fallen angels are not able to roam around the earth right now? If so, I wonder how it is that people get demon possessed? If they were not able to do anything and were literally bound then how do you explain this:

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

It's not just about deception in general, which we amils have explained many times. Have you not seen any of those times where we've explained our understanding of the binding of Satan? I'm tired of repeating it, honestly.

Exactly. They have meaning but the meaning does not have to resemble the symbol. The dragon being cast into a pit is all symbolic. Of what? Satan being bound in a pit? No! Not anymore than the dragon having seven heads and ten horns means Satan has seven heads and ten horns. So, why do you read the description of Satan's binding that way?

Do you actually think that fallen angels are not able to roam around the earth right now? OF COURSE they are able: that is why they are not bound.

If so, I wonder how it is that people get demon possessed? Exactly! People get oppressed and possessed for the very reason that Satan is NOT bound yet. It is FUTURE.

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Exactly: this is church age: Satan is not bound in any possible way. The binding of Satan is FUTURE. When He is bound, none of this will be possible.

They have meaning but the meaning does not have to resemble the symbol. Who said? An amil? Symbols have means and God does not change the meaning. Example: "7 heads." They always mean 7 kings with 7 kingdoms.
I understand, a head does not look like a kingdom.

The dragon being cast into a pit is all symbolic. Again, WHO SAID? A amil? It probably does not count! what is symbolic is the dragon. But so what? We know it represents the devil. Amil's IMAGINE the casting into the pit is symbolic. They are wrong. There is nothing symbolic about binding someone which prevents them from doing things. Someone is prison is not free to walk the streets of their city.

When Satan gets bound, after the 70th week, then NO ONE can be possessed or oppressed by him or any demon. There will be no principalities or powers, for they all will be bound. I will say this, Amil's certainly have a good imagination.

why do you read the description of Satan's binding that way? A better question is, why do you read it as YOU do?

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.
The ONLY thing I find symbolic here is the word dragon which is explained.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Truthfully, since I know that Satan is alive and well and still deceives the nations, I don't think there is any possible way you could explain his binding as having been already accomplished. This is one big reason why I am not amil - it does does it fit how I read scripture. I understand someone can imagine Satan being bound now, but will that keep someone from believing in Buddha, to their damnation? Just the fact that there are millions of Buddhists on the way to hell is proof Satan is not bound in any way. Just the fact that there are billions that believe Muhammad was God's prophet is further proof. They are very deceived.

Once I was ministering to a Muslim. I shared a computer with him for a semester at the U of Idaho, so he kind of owed me. For most of one semester, after every class we would go to the library and get out a Quran and a bible. I showed him from his own book how he had to also believe the bible. Then I would show him a verse in the bible that would shake him deeply. Towards the end of the semester nothing had changed. One Saturday morning I was praying for Him and questioned God on what else I could do. He spoke to me - it sounded like an audible voice: He said, "first you have to cast out that Muslim devil, or he will never understand."

So I switched gears and went into "casting out devils" mode. (I had cast out many demons by that time: I knew exactly how to do it.) It took me from 8 AM to 12 noon. It was strange, for he was several miles away from me. The Lord allowed the Muslim devil to manifest himself in my body so I would know how to proceed. At noon, I felt the devil leave and I knew my friend was set free.

The next class day, Monday, he came running up to me, face aglow, and told that that Saturday he gave up being a Muslim!

As you can see, I know very well that the devil is not bound. I have cast out demons of fear, of doubt and just about every other kind, and have seen people change.

When Satan REALLY (for real) gets bound, after the future 70th week has finished, all who are spiritual will KNOW he has been bound.

Your testimony reinforces the Amil position. Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

 

[iamlamad]

For whatever reason you just don't understand anything I tell you and don't have any understanding of the amil view. It's fine if you disagree with it, but you don't even understand it. It's impossible to have a good discussion with someone who has no idea what I'm talking about (whether you agrere or not). And I don't know what you're talking about half the time, either. So be it. What can we do about that? I don't know. So, let's just agree to disagree.

Hey! This is something you and I agree on!

 

[iamlamad]

No, they haven't. Pretrib must be taught. One would never find it with an open and objective mind. That is why Pretribbers duck around these basic questions:

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Pretribbers are wise enough to know we don't form doctrine from one lone chapter in the bible.

 

[Timtofly]

You have got everything back to front. That is why you cannot grasp what Scripture is saying on this subject. The opposite is actually the truth. What you advocate re the introduction of a carnal earthly kingdom, where the Messiah subjugates the Gentiles and rules over them with an iron rod, where Israel enjoys a superior racial place above all other nations, where the old covenant arrangement and conditions become the norm again, is actually a modern rehash of the racial man-centered, earth-bound, prejudice theology of the Pharisees that caused then to justify rejecting Christ and crucifying our Savior. This theology was rejected by all the ECFs and was foisted upon Christianity by the heretic Cerenthius. He was the father what is known as Premil today.

Did I say the nation of Israel gets it back?

Now who is conjuring up false accusations?

Your interpretation of Revelation 20 is as bad as the heretic Cerenthius' rendition, as you aptly put it, from God's point of view. Cerinthus denied the physical and only spiritualized creation. Amil only deny a physical Lord's Day. They spiritualize it in the here and now.

 

[iamlamad]

Not so. That is wrong. Futurists fail to grasp the source of the great tribulation / wrath / vengeance outlined in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24, it is from God not Satan. Also, the judgment is upon the wicked Christ-rejecting Jews, not the righteous.

What you have done here is show all who read it that you really don't know.
Can we just stick with the written word, and leave imagination somewhere else?
WHO is behind the days of GT?

First off, it is GOD who will allow Satan and the Beast and delegate his 42 months of authority.

Secondly, it is Satan who hates all believers and Jews.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Satan will be behind the Image and the Mark.

Here is the basis for the days of GT Jesus spoke of:

Rev. 13:
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Think Nebuchadnezzar. He also forced people to worship an image. History will repeat itself. Then a mark will be created. God will send angels to warn people that if they receive this mark, they will be doomed to fire and brimstone forever. Then the Beast and False prophet and all around the world who will work with them, will hunt down believers and force then upon the threat of beheading to take the mark. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people. Will some believers take the mark? The devil certainly thinks so!

These are the days of GT. No fresh water to drink. The only water fit to drink will be in stores, and without the mark, no one can buy. Water will become very precious. It is written that the saints will be overcome. Many just don't believe this verse. It is true anyway. Satan will be the author of all of this. He loves to get believers into pressure situations.

The days of GT will begin in Revelation late in chapter 14 and the beheaded will begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

When the days of GT reach their peak, GOD WILL INTERVENE: He will send the angels with the vials and plagues to shorten those days.

 

[Timtofly]

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

· Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
· Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
· Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

You are adding a lot of speculation to one chapter.

It does not say "just a dragon". It is pretty specific of who that dragon symbolizes. Thus breaking up the symbolism into a literal time frame. Satan is a created being an angel. What is a spirit any way? Some throw that word around like it is supposed to mean something. Angels were not even created with a spirit in the image of God. Angels cannot die and give up their spirits. The only thing that John states in the vials is three frog like spirits come out of each of the dragon, FP, and beast. How is this literal physical phenomenon? It is symbolic of the force to gather an army to the battle of Armageddon. God is drawing the army via these 3 physical beings to Megiddo.

Satan is a physically created angel. God is a Spirit, and Satan is not God nor even close to God. Satan is just another physical creation residing in this existence.

 

[iamlamad]

Your testimony reinforces the Amil position. Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

All this is certainly true. Right up to the pretrib rapture. Once the days of GT start, in the second half of the week, God will give Satan control over earth for 42 months. Then the only scripture that believers can have faith in is that they will be overcome.

 

[Timtofly]

The 6th seal is the end of the world. You do not grasp the recaps. That is why your theology is messed up. Your teachers have taught you wrong.

Revelation 6:13-14 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as Rev 19, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the second coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

John does not say the rhetorical question is answered in the 6th seal. That is your teacher's private sermon. If the world ended, how does the 7th seal work? How do they prepare for this rhetorical question if it is an unknown event? The 42 months of Satan is the preparation. Those cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened. I am not defending a 7 year period. Satan's 42 months will replace most of the wrath of God. We are still 2.5 years from Satan's time on earth.

The 6th seal is not the end of the world. It is the Second Coming and rapture though.

 

[iamlamad]

That is the eternal age to come.

Sure. Why not? It's an age that will never end. Please read Luke 20:34-36 again. Jesus said that in the age to come people will not die. If that isn't speaking of eternity, I don't know what does.

Keeping the feast of tabernacles involves performing animal sacrifices, so explain to me how you can reconcile that with Hebrews 8-10 which talks about how Christ ushered in the new covenant to replace the old covenant of animal sacrifices with His once for all sacrifice.

Do you not understand that to reinstitute animal sacrifices would be an act of blasphemy against Christ? The old covenant with its animal sacrifices were only a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:1). There will never be any use for them again. So, it is impossible to interpret Zech 14 as speaking of the future.

It seems you are missing something. Yes, OF COURSE those that are raised at Paul's prewrath / pretrib rapture will have resurrection bodies and will not marry. But we will not be all who are around. We will be judging NATURAL people who WILL be married and given in marriage. So that passage is truth, but does not cover those who did not get resurrection bodies.

Agree, that verse fits eternity, but it also fits the 1000 year reign that you don't know about. Did you notice those seated on thrones judging in Rev. 20? I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...

It is just one short phrase, not even a complete sentence. Who is this? And WHEN is it? It will be both NT and OT saints. The disciples were certainly be part of those judging. Some will judge over one city, while others over ten cities. It will be the 1000 year reign of Christ you choose to deny.

Do you not understand that to reinstitute animal sacrifices would be an act of blasphemy against Christ?
Surely you have read the last ten chapters or so of Ezekiel - about the millennial temple? What do you make of the animal sacrifices? It may well be that Christ reinstitutes them!

We both know that the animal sacrifices of old did not remove sins - only covered them. Yet, God set up that sacrifical system with it's failures. Now we know they were just pointing ahead in time to when Jesus would be sacrificed.

What then can we make of sacrifices in the future? Since it is not written, we can only guess. My guess is, they will be pointing BACK to the supreme sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is only a guess.

 

[iamlamad]

Maybe literally a thousand times?

It's good to see you keep a sense of humor! I wish I had a ROF smiley!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Pretribbers are wise enough to know we don't form doctrine from one lone chapter in the bible.

Personal opinion mean little. Where is your evidence?

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. That is wrong. Futurists fail to grasp the source of the great tribulation / wrath / vengeance outlined in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24, it is from God not Satan. Also, the judgment is upon the wicked Christ-rejecting Jews, not the righteous.

Moreover, the double-barreled ‘tribulation great’ (as it outlines it in the original) also emanates from two distinct sources – Satan and God. The tribulation great originating from Satan is directed towards the Church intra-Advent and will terminate at the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. The tribulation great (or wrath) from Christ is directed exclusively against the wicked. The “tribulation great” described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24 is (1) from God and (2) geographically relates to Jerusalem and (3) to the Christ-rejecting Jewish people living there, and, (4) to the vengeance of God in AD 70. The tribulation great in AD70 that was from God (and was wrath) was directed specifically against a rebellious religious city Jerusalem (also spiritually known as Sodom and Egypt) that should have known better. It was a persecution that saw the dispersion of the Jews as predicted in these parallel passages: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).”

The great tribulation (or tribulation great, as it says in the original) is the righteous wrath of God upon the disobedient Jews, after they crucified their Messiah. The intra-advent tribulation is the wicked wrath of Satan upon the righteous. It will terminate at the one final future Second coming.

The two tribs are significantly different. One is from God the other from the devil. The tribulation great originating from Satan is directed towards the Church intra-Advent and will terminate at the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ. The tribulation great (or wrath) from Christ is directed exclusively against the wicked. The “tribulation great” described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24 is (1) from God and (2) geographically relates to Jerusalem and (3) to the Christ-rejecting Jewish people living there, and, (4) to the vengeance of God in AD 70, as I have previously outlined. It was a persecution that saw the dispersion of the Jews as predicted in these parallel passages: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).”

The Futurists whole premise is faulty, and because it is, the rest of their theory falls apart. They attempt to take a historical event and move the entire prophecy that was fulfilled in AD 70 (Matthew 24:21) to the future Second coming. The great tribulation was completed centuries ago. You need to restudy ... [the tribulation great] and look for its historical evidence and fulfilment; and realize that it has nothing to do with the future expected Second coming of Christ.

Futurists that lightly dismiss this need to read the historic accounts of AD 70 especially Josephus and note how horrendous was the destruction and deep the persecution and lasting the consequences, and then you would not be a dismissive about the gravity of AD 70.

The “tribulation great” that was focused upon the Christ-rejecting Jew and the city of Jerusalem in AD 70 emanated from the wrath of God.

You do realize your post would make the NT obsolete, right? The full canon was not collected and brought together until the 2nd century. This would have been word of mouth warnings and not the actual NT. Yes there were thousands of manuscripts all over the empire, but can you honestly claim who had the neccessary manuscripts and who did not?

Josephus did not write for the church. He wrote for the Roman emperors. The Romans were more cruel than the Greeks. That seems obvious. The last days communist and Hitler were even more cruel than the Romans and the medieval church. The nations have not grown more humane. They have upped the technology to torture and eliminate any who get in the way of their agendas.

Nations never change towards the better. People change though and not for the better most of the time. Any thing that starts out decent grows in error over time, it does not advance goodness. Look at all the east coast "Bible colleges" started by early Protestants. Just tools of human socialism now.

The book of Revelation is the second advent and should be left for the future. It is a spider's Web of theology that tries to explain Revelation has been totally fullfilled. The second advent was not, so the events surrounding it are still in tact. Just waiting for the 4th seal to open.

 

[sovereigngrace]

John does not say the rhetorical question is answered in the 6th seal. That is your teacher's private sermon. If the world ended, how does the 7th seal work? How do they prepare for this rhetorical question if it is an unknown event? The 42 months of Satan is the preparation. Those cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened. I am not defending a 7 year period. Satan's 42 months will replace most of the wrath of God. We are still 2.5 years from Satan's time on earth.

The 6th seal is not the end of the world. It is the Second Coming and rapture though.

The 7th seal shows silence in heaven. Why? It has been emptied for man to populate the new earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All this is certainly true. Right up to the pretrib rapture. Once the days of GT start, in the second half of the week, God will give Satan control over earth for 42 months. Then the only scripture that believers can have faith in is that they will be overcome.

Again, you have zero Scripture. Sadly, Pretrib is a denial of the biblical facts. Many of us want held to it and are now free.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are adding a lot of speculation to one chapter.

It does not say "just a dragon". It is pretty specific of who that dragon symbolizes. Thus breaking up the symbolism into a literal time frame. Satan is a created being an angel. What is a spirit any way? Some throw that word around like it is supposed to mean something. Angels were not even created with a spirit in the image of God. Angels cannot die and give up their spirits. The only thing that John states in the vials is three frog like spirits come out of each of the dragon, FP, and beast. How is this literal physical phenomenon? It is symbolic of the force to gather an army to the battle of Armageddon. God is drawing the army via these 3 physical beings to Megiddo.

Satan is a physically created angel. God is a Spirit, and Satan is not God nor even close to God. Satan is just another physical creation residing in this existence.

Exactly, the symbols represent realities. But they are only symbols. The prison and chains are spiritual restraints on the devil up until just before the second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What you have done here is show all who read it that you really don't know.
Can we just stick with the written word, and leave imagination somewhere else?
WHO is behind the days of GT?

First off, it is GOD who will allow Satan and the Beast and delegate his 42 months of authority.

Secondly, it is Satan who hates all believers and Jews.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Satan will be behind the Image and the Mark.

Here is the basis for the days of GT Jesus spoke of:

Rev. 13:
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Think Nebuchadnezzar. He also forced people to worship an image. History will repeat itself. Then a mark will be created. God will send angels to warn people that if they receive this mark, they will be doomed to fire and brimstone forever. Then the Beast and False prophet and all around the world who will work with them, will hunt down believers and force then upon the threat of beheading to take the mark. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people. Will some believers take the mark? The devil certainly thinks so!

These are the days of GT. No fresh water to drink. The only water fit to drink will be in stores, and without the mark, no one can buy. Water will become very precious. It is written that the saints will be overcome. Many just don't believe this verse. It is true anyway. Satan will be the author of all of this. He loves to get believers into pressure situations.

The days of GT will begin in Revelation late in chapter 14 and the beheaded will begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

When the days of GT reach their peak, GOD WILL INTERVENE: He will send the angels with the vials and plagues to shorten those days.

The wrath you talk about in Revelation is upon the wicked. The righteous are preserved from that as they were in Egypt. There is no 7 year trib anywhere as i suspect you know.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You do realize your post would make the NT obsolete, right? The full canon was not collected and brought together until the 2nd century. This would have been word of mouth warnings and not the actual NT. Yes there were thousands of manuscripts all over the empire, but can you honestly claim who had the neccessary manuscripts and who did not?

Josephus did not write for the church. He wrote for the Roman emperors. The Romans were more cruel than the Greeks. That seems obvious. The last days communist and Hitler were even more cruel than the Romans and the medieval church. The nations have not grown more humane. They have upped the technology to torture and eliminate any who get in the way of their agendas.

Nations never change towards the better. People change though and not for the better most of the time. Any thing that starts out decent grows in error over time, it does not advance goodness. Look at all the east coast "Bible colleges" started by early Protestants. Just tools of human socialism now.

The book of Revelation is the second advent and should be left for the future. It is a spider's Web of theology that tries to explain Revelation has been totally fullfilled. The second advent was not, so the events surrounding it are still in tact. Just waiting for the 4th seal to open.

I honestly do not know what you were trying to say. What has all this to do with my post?

 

[Timtofly]

No, they haven't. Pretrib must be taught. One would never find it with an open and objective mind. That is why Pretribbers duck around these basic questions:

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

This is taught as well: how pre trib is taught.

Who ever associates Paul's rapture with John's Revelation if they read the books at separate times? It can be taught that way, but not by every single pastor or evangelist in the entire earth. If people make a connection, they can give their opinion on the topic. In fact there is no concensus of the church on the matter, so no way does any one hold the complete truth, on the basis of private opinion alone.

 

[BABerean2]

This is taught as well: how pre trib is taught.

Who ever associates Paul's rapture with John's Revelation if they read the books at separate times? It can be taught that way, but not by every single pastor or evangelist in the entire earth. If people make a connection, they can give their opinion on the topic. In fact there is no concensus of the church on the matter, so no way does any one hold the complete truth, on the basis of private opinion alone.

For about 1800 years there was a general consensus that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.

The proof of the change in doctrine is found below.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf




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