Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Spiritual Jew]

I used to believe the Premill doctrine was correct after I became a believer, because my pastors believed it.

So the answer is, No.

That's good to know. I think we should be careful about using the word "cult" around here because you gave some of us (not just me) the impression that you were saying believing any view besides amil means you are part of a cult.

The timing of Christ's return, and viewpoints on the millennium are third order issues.

Many in my own church body do not agree with me on this issue.

As a matter of fact, I gave a presentation last night to my church on that issue.

I discussed the different viewpoints of the return timing, and the three different viewpoints of the Millennium, and why our church allows all viewpoints.

.

That's good that you discussed all those views instead of trying to pressure everyone to believe your view. You let them think for themselves. Excellent.

 

[BABerean2]

That's good to know. I think we should be careful about using the word "cult" around here because you gave some of us (not just me) the impression that you were saying believing any view besides amil means you are part of a cult.

You misunderstood who I was talking to.

"iamlamad" has stated on several occasions that those who do not agree with the Pretrib doctrine will not be gathered to Christ at His return.

He ----> "iamlamad" has turned the Pretrib doctrine into a cult, by making this statement.

Sorry for the confusion.


.

 

[DavidPT]

Assuming you disagree with all the parts you didn't underline, can you explain why you would disagree with the part I said about the dragon and beast being dependent on each other? Doesn't Rev 13 show that they are?

I thought I had that underlined as well since I see no reason to disagree with you about that. But, if that meant satan and the beast need to be in the pit at the same time, that's likely what I disagreed with.

You said it "obviously has to be the latter" of the 3 options and then, for some reason, did not proceed to explain why. Maybe because it's supposedly so obvious? Not to me. So, can you please do that? Since it's so "obvious", I'm sure you can explain it in a very clear way that everyone here can understand without any trouble.

And then, if you haven't already with your answer to the above, if you could explain why the souls John saw can't include those who were martyred before the beast was put in the pit, that would be great.

One reason I think it has to obviously be the latter, take note what Revelation 20:4 indicates---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

Let's focus on this portion for a moment---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

If we look in Revelation 13, none of those things are even possible until a beast first rises out of the sea---where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed. And that another beast rises out of the earth---and that he then exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice what verse 14 and 15 indicates, what I have underlined. Until all of that is fulfilled first, how can there possibly already be martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship it's image, and refusing to take it's mark, before any of these events I brought up in Revelation 13 are even fulfilled first?

How is it logical that none of this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, in regards to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship this beast in question?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast would be paralleling any of the thousand years?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast is meaning after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is showing that it has already preceded this time?

How is it logical that this doesn't then indicate that when the beast ascends out of the pit, another out of the earth, this resulting in it's 42 month reign, that this does not precede the beginning of the thousand years, then?

And if these events precede the beginning of the thousand years, how could that possibly align with Amil, the fact this would place the 42 month reign during a time when Christ was still walking on the earth? The reason being, Amil has the beginning of the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago, and if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years, this places that reign during a time when Christ was still walking the earth, rather than in the end of this age where it belongs.

And yes, I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well. But that would be beside the point if it actually can't fit there like that, since that would be placing this reign after the thousand years rather than prior to the beginning of the thousand years where it needs to be, in order for it to have any meaningful relevance concerning the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4.

Basically then, in light of Revelation 13, I see Revelation 20:4 telling us this-------which had not worshipped the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand, during it's 42 month reign; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I thought I had that underlined as well since I see no reason to disagree with you about that. But, if that meant satan and the beast need to be in the pit at the same time, that's likely what I disagreed with.



One reason I think it has to obviously be the latter, take note what Revelation 20:4 indicates---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

Let's focus on this portion for a moment---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

If we look in Revelation 13, none of those things are even possible until a beast first rises out of the sea---where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed. And that another beast rises out of the earth---and that he then exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice what verse 14 and 15 indicates, what I have underlined. Until all of that is fulfilled first, how can there possibly already be martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship it's image, and refusing to take it's mark, before any of these events I brought up in Revelation 13 are even fulfilled first?

How is it logical that none of this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, in regards to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship this beast in question?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast would be paralleling any of the thousand years?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast is meaning after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is showing that it has already preceded this time?

How is it logical that this doesn't then indicate that when the beast ascends out of the pit, another out of the earth, this resulting in it's 42 month reign, that this does not precede the beginning of the thousand years, then?

And if these events precede the beginning of the thousand years, how could that possibly align with Amil, the fact this would place the 42 month reign during a time when Christ was still walking on the earth? The reason being, Amil has the beginning of the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago, and if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years, this places that reign during a time when Christ was still walking the earth, rather than in the end of this age where it belongs.

And yes, I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well. But that would be beside the point if it actually can't fit there like that, since that would be placing this reign after the thousand years rather than prior to the beginning of the thousand years where it needs to be, in order for it to have any meaningful relevance concerning the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4.

Basically then, in light of Revelation 13, I see Revelation 20:4 telling us this-------which had not worshipped the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand, during it's 42 month reign; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You have repeatedly and carefully avoided my rebuttal of your allegations on this matter. Of course, there is a reason why. It refutes your argument. Until you address it we can only conclude you have no viable response. I will continue to repeat until you address it.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I thought I had that underlined as well since I see no reason to disagree with you about that. But, if that meant satan and the beast need to be in the pit at the same time, that's likely what I disagreed with..

One reason I think it has to obviously be the latter, take note what Revelation 20:4 indicates---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

Let's focus on this portion for a moment---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

If we look in Revelation 13, none of those things are even possible until a beast first rises out of the sea---where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed. And that another beast rises out of the earth---and that he then exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice what verse 14 and 15 indicates, what I have underlined. Until all of that is fulfilled first, how can there possibly already be martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship it's image, and refusing to take it's mark, before any of these events I brought up in Revelation 13 are even fulfilled first?

How is it logical that none of this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, in regards to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship this beast in question?

Where does it say that the "reign of the beast" only lasts for "42 months"? Nowhere. You foist that upon the text. You have to.

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast would be paralleling any of the thousand years?

So, you invent an extra-biblical argument that is not in the text (and therefore not believed by Amils) and then add an absurd conclusion (that Amils do not hold to), and then present this as a viable argument. That is insane. You prove nothing but your ignorance of the Amil position. Most Amils relate the 42 months to Satan's little season and see the beast and Satan doing their wickedness throughout the intra-Advent period while cranking it up prior to the coming of Christ and the GWT.

You are trying to refute Amil with a faulty Premil perspective of Rev 20. That does not work. In fact, your whole argument falls apart here.

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast is meaning after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is showing that it has already preceded this time?

How is it logical that this doesn't then indicate that when the beast ascends out of the pit, another out of the earth, this resulting in it's 42 month reign, that this does not precede the beginning of the thousand years, then?

It is your reasoning that is illogical, not Amil. You have been shown this repeatedly over the years yet refuse to accept the truth.

And if these events precede the beginning of the thousand years,

How many times do we need to tell you, they do not?

how could that possibly align with Amil, the fact this would place the 42 month reign during a time when Christ was still walking on the earth? The reason being, Amil has the beginning of the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago, and if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years, this places that reign during a time when Christ was still walking the earth, rather than in the end of this age where it belongs.

And yes, I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well. But that would be beside the point if it actually can't fit there like that, since that would be placing this reign after the thousand years rather than prior to the beginning of the thousand years where it needs to be, in order for it to have any meaningful relevance concerning the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4.

Basically then, in light of Revelation 13, I see Revelation 20:4 telling us this-------which had not worshipped the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand, during it's 42 month reign; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You start off with an erroneous conclusion and then build upon that sandy foundation. That is why your argument completely falls apart. Sand is never a good surface to build your theology.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I thought I had that underlined as well since I see no reason to disagree with you about that. But, if that meant satan and the beast need to be in the pit at the same time, that's likely what I disagreed with.

Why would you disagree with that if you agree that they depend on each other? I believe being cast into the pit symbolically represents the concept of their power being reduced and restrained (not completely taken away). If the beast has had its power reduced and restrained then it only follows that would be the case for the dragon as well, in my opinion.

One reason I think it has to obviously be the latter, take note what Revelation 20:4 indicates---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

Let's focus on this portion for a moment---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand

If we look in Revelation 13, none of those things are even possible until a beast first rises out of the sea---where one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed. And that another beast rises out of the earth---and that he then exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Notice what verse 14 and 15 indicates, what I have underlined. Until all of that is fulfilled first, how can there possibly already be martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship it's image, and refusing to take it's mark, before any of these events I brought up in Revelation 13 are even fulfilled first?

How is it logical that none of this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, in regards to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship this beast in question?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast would be paralleling any of the thousand years?

How is it logical that this 42 month reign of the beast is meaning after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is showing that it has already preceded this time?

How is it logical that this doesn't then indicate that when the beast ascends out of the pit, another out of the earth, this resulting in it's 42 month reign, that this does not precede the beginning of the thousand years, then?

And if these events precede the beginning of the thousand years, how could that possibly align with Amil, the fact this would place the 42 month reign during a time when Christ was still walking on the earth? The reason being, Amil has the beginning of the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago, and if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years, this places that reign during a time when Christ was still walking the earth, rather than in the end of this age where it belongs.

And yes, I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well. But that would be beside the point if it actually can't fit there like that, since that would be placing this reign after the thousand years rather than prior to the beginning of the thousand years where it needs to be, in order for it to have any meaningful relevance concerning the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4.

Basically then, in light of Revelation 13, I see Revelation 20:4 telling us this-------which had not worshipped the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand, during it's 42 month reign; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

David, you are a futurist and a literalist. I am neither. So, everything you said there is all based on the assumption that everything (or at least almost everything) in the book of Revelation will occur only in the future and is based on the assumption that the text must be literal unless it's spelled out for us that it's figurative or symbolic.

Our approaches to interpreting the book are so different that it is impossible for us to ever agree on everything in the book as long as that is the case.

You said "I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well". No, that is not true. Only an amil futurist would do that. But, there are also partial preterist amils, historicist amils and idealist amils (like me and sovereigngrace).

My view is that the references to "42 months", "a time, times and half a time" and "1260 days" are all symbolic for the NT time period because that time period started around the time of Christ's first coming or possibly when He ascended. I'll explain this, so read on first before commenting on this, please.

If you look at Rev 12 you can see Jesus ascends to heaven and there is war in heaven and Satan is cast out. We talked about this and you seemed to agree that the timing of Satan being cast out of heaven was when Jesus ascended. If you continue reading in Rev 12 you should see that he then immediately went out to make war against "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That lines up with this:

Rev 13:1-9
13 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Rev 12 speaks of the dragon, Satan, being cast out of heaven when Christ ascended and then going to make war with God's people (Christians). Notice in this passage from Rev 13 that it talks about the beast waging "war against God's holy people". Is there any basis for thinking that the dragon making war against God's people, as mentioned in Rev 12, and the beast waging war against people, as mentioned in Rev 13, are speaking of different time periods? I don't believe so. Remember, the beast gets its power from the dragon, so they work together.

So, if Rev 12 and Rev 13 are speaking of the same time periods, as I believe, then that means the dragon (Satan) and the beast started making war with Christians right after Jesus ascended to heaven. Obviously, that didn't just happen for 42 months, so the 42 months has to be symbolic. It shouldn't be that hard to believe that the time periods mentioned in the book are symbolic when so much of the rest of the book is clearly symbolic. But, I know you, with your tendency to see things literally, have a very hard time seeing it that way.

You are probably wondering at this point how I can think that the dragon and beast can make war with God's people if they are in the pit. Remember, I don't see being bound in the pit as meaning they can't do anything at all. Their power is restrained to an extent, but not completely taken away. They can't stop the spread of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit, but they can still persecute Christians. Remember, the binding of Satan has to do with him deceiving people and bringing them all together as one against Christ, not with him persecuting believers.

One last thing for now because this post it quite long at this point. You probably assume the beast coming out of the sea is the same as the beast coming out of the pit, but if that was the case then why doesn't it say the beast comes out of the pit instead of out the sea? There must be a difference between the sea and the pit, so I see no reason to assume that the beast coming out of the sea equates to the beast coming out of the pit.

That's enough for now. I have more to say on this, but feel free to respond to what I've said so far and then we can go from there.

 

[Timtofly]

Does the above include you?


.

That is an interesting question. Most here must think I am the only one decieved and they are not. I guess we will only know when it happens. When Satan's deception is blown sky high and the stars fall to earth as fig leaves.

 

[Timtofly]

You lost me here, unfortunately. I'm not familiar with a view such as this, I have no clue as to how you are even arriving at these conclusions, let alone what exactly it is you are arriving at.

The 4 Gospels have plenty to say about a harvest. Jesus was not just talking about the end of the OT. He was talking about the end of the NT some 1990 years later.

 

[Timtofly]

Sometimes I wonder if we are reading the same book.

The verses were about Jesus talking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, correct? I would not call them believers.

 

[eclipsenow]

There are well over a million mountains on earth, let alone all the smaller hills.

If the Israelites always used the number 1000 literally, then quite a few passages in the bible are making weird claims! Look at Psalm 50:

Psalm 50

I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

The whole world is his - and everything in it.
Except the 999,000 other hills that he apparently doesn't own the cattle on?

See, literally this would be saying God only owns the cattle on a thousand hills - what about the rest?
Instead, the Hebrew people frequently used the number 1000 the way we might use a 'gazillion' or some people say 'gajillion'. It just means a really big non-specific amount. All of the money - or people - or whatever. "We're going to rob a bank and steal a gazillion bucks!"

That's the thousand. In fact, in the OT unless it is actually counting out something like how many soldiers were going into a certain battle, the number 1000 is very rarely literal. It means a big all encompassing complete number.

It's the same in the New Testament. 2 Peter 3:8 says:

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”

It is showing the different ways God can view time, from viewing the overarching grand progress of the whole of history - all gazillion years of it - down to zooming in and studying each day and each person's single prayer like He had the whole of eternity to concentrate on it!

2 Peter 3:8 is far from some sort of spy-code suggesting how to decode weird end-times-tables. Rather, it is a profoundly practical and comforting verse. It says God is capable of knowing both the whole of eternity and stooping down to listen to your individual prayer as if you were the only person in the whole world.

Futurists grab 2 Peter 3:8 as some kind of Rosetta stone or Enigma machine that then lets them install their end-times-tables randomly over any parts of the bible that refer to days. It’s their excuse to justify their futurist presuppositions and charts. But they ignore the other part of the message. If a day is like a 1000 years, when do futurists turn around and do the other equation and make 1000 years like a day? When do they take each day and multiply it by 1000? It's now 2020 which is about 737,300 days. Multiplied by 1000 would equal 737.3 MILLION heavenly years! Um, what to do with that? Futurists just ignore it.

Apparently 2 Peter 3 can only be read their way, and then the flip around and include this bit and ignore that bit and draw up a few lines on their crazy-wall and tada! It's all happening in the next 7 years. Every time. Because apparently if Revelation isn't a timetable about us - then it's boring.
View attachment 286458

John didn't really mean Chapter One where he says he has written it to HIS generation, ABOUT his generation, FOR HIS generation to KEEP and OBEY. No - apparently that's all code for our generation. When his generation of Christians was about to experience the wrath of the Roman Empire, apparently he decided to tell them "Forget your troubles - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" Yeah, apparently.

But I'm not buying it. When I read Chapter 1 - it is definitely about his generation - reminding them that the Lord would win. No matter how bad it got, stay faithful, because God is worth it.

Even if Satan seemed to be in charge in times and places - there would also be ways in which he was also bound. He is bound in regards to stopping the gospel getting out to the nations. That's it! He's not bound from setting up Hitler or Stalin or North Korea. That stuff happens! That stuff may always happen until the Lord returns. But the gospel can thrive even in these nations - and it still goes on from persecution to triumph. The church is thriving in both Iran and China. Indeed, I'm hopeful China becomes a democracy in the next generation under the influence of a huge church that may create some social tipping points.

The 1000 years is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible - but ultimately when read as the metaphor it is for a gazillion years - both 2 Peter 3 and the so-called 'millennium' and many other things fall into place. And maybe we can get on with the gospel, stop trying to guess the date of the return, and put our crazy-walls away.

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone who claims those who do not believe in the Pretrib doctrine will be "left behind" at the return of Christ has turned their doctrine into a cult.

So no one has a choice in when it happens?

It will shock many people when it does happen.

 

[DavidPT]

Where does it say that the "reign of the beast" only lasts for "42 months"? Nowhere. You foist that upon the text. You have to.

Since there are 3 aspects of this beast, that being---1) was---2)---is not---3) shall ascend out of the pit---it wouldn't be meaning when the beast was, that it only reigned for 42 months during that time. When it was not in the pit before ending up in the pit, this would likely involve thousands of years. And it wouldn't be when the beast is not, since it wouldn't be reigning at all. Therefore, it must be meaning once it ascends out of the pit.

Those verses I brought up in Revelation 13, I didn't include verse 5, since I assumed everyone already knows that verse indicates it shall continue for 42 months. That's what some of us define as a 42 month reign.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

What is possible, a literal 42 months might not be meant here. But even so, until a beast rises out of the sea first, where one of his heads has a deadly wound that is healed, and another beast rises out of the earth, there can't even be what is recorded in verse 5 until those things come to pass first. Nothing I can see that is recorded in Revelation 13 could be involving a time when the beast was, nor a time when the beast is not, but is only involving a time when the beast ascends out of the pit. The latter being where it's 42 month reign fits.

Which then brings us back to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship the beast where one of his heads has a deadly wound and is healed, and not during the time when the beast was, since that is meaning during a period of time these martyrs in Revelation 20:4 can't fit in, since John had these visions post the cross, and that when he had these visions, the beast was not at the time, and that when it was, this would have to be meaning a period of time prior to John receiving these visions, and that the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 is meaning during a period of time post John receiving these visions.


Unfortunetely, I only got around to addressing your first point. Not trying to avoid your other points. I'm old school. I don't think I will ever get used to expressing my thoughts into writing. It doesn't come natural to me as it apparently does with some of the rest of you. I find it tedious a lot of times. I never did like typing, I still don't.

 

[Timtofly]

How is it logical that this doesn't then indicate that when the beast ascends out of the pit, another out of the earth, this resulting in it's 42 month reign, that this does not precede the beginning of the thousand years, then?

Only one beast out of the earth. If the 5th Trumpet is the symbolic reveal of Satan on earth, then it happens after Jesus the Lamb is already here on the earth at the 6th seal. I think the pit is opened as part of breaking all deception Satan has on the whole world. An open "elevator" to sheol would be plenty of proof. We see however that still many humans will be willing to worship Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it say that the "reign of the beast" only lasts for "42 months"?

Where does it claim Satan has authority to do anything for 6000 years? John provides the answer by giving the time frame of those who oppose Satan for 42 months. It is easier to call it Satan's time. We know it is not literal but figurative, than having to explain all the reasons it should be.

Besides the fact you cannot claim Satan has limited authority and then complain his authority is only 42 months. You are arguing against your own doctrine. Pre-Mill have never claimed the little season in Revelation 20 is the 42 months. That is scripturally not logical as David has clearly stated. The 42 months comes first, people refuse to take the mark, worship Satan. They die. They are resurrected, they have children, many generations of children, and a thousand years later Satan is loosed for a little season. Jesus does not have a second or third or even fourth coming at that Battle. Satan is loosed after a thousand years, marches to Jerusalem where Jesus is reigning and God sends fire from heaven. That is how Satan is destroyed, not by Christ coming from heaven, because Christ is in Jerusalem, and has been since the Battle of Armageddon 1000 years prior to the second little season of Satan. That is all clearly stated in Revelation 20. If it is not, show me a verse in Revelation 20 that proves different than this or David’s post.

 

[DavidPT]

David, you are a futurist and a literalist. I am neither. So, everything you said there is all based on the assumption that everything (or at least almost everything) in the book of Revelation will occur only in the future and is based on the assumption that the text must be literal unless it's spelled out for us that it's figurative or symbolic.

This is where you are assuming things a bit wrong. But that might not be entirely your fault, based on past discussions you and I had in the past, years ago. Remember in the past, when you and I used to debate about the 2Ws, and at the time, I took them to be two literal individuals, and that you then asked how was it possible for the ppl on the earth to see them in literal Jerusalem if they themselves were not there as well? Or something to that effect. I recall proposing that they would be able to view this on tv because it would be being recorded, such as by CNN.

Eventually, and it had a lot to do with my discussions with you about it in the past, that I then changed my mind about that altogether. As of now, there is nothing in Revelation 11 I'm taking in the literal sense, where it involves the literal city of Jerusalem and it's literal temple. Nor am any longer taking the 2Ws in the literal sense. What's ironic about it, there are actually Amils, meaning Preterist Amils, the ones who insist Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, therefore the city and temple meant in those verses must mean Jerusalem and the temple before they were destroyed in 70 AD, that take the city and temple mentioned in verse 1 and 2, in the literal sense, and here I am, a Premil, not taking it in the literal sense at all anymore.

As to Revelation 13 and my point concerning that, my point only has to do with chronology, and not whether or not any of the events are meaning in a literal sense. My arguments are not focused on that aspect.

 

[DavidPT]

There are well over a million mountains on earth, let alone all the smaller hills.

If the Israelites always used the number 1000 literally, then quite a few passages in the bible are making weird claims! Look at Psalm 50:

Psalm 50

I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

The whole world is his - and everything in it.
Except the 999,000 other hills that he apparently doesn't own the cattle on?

See, literally this would be saying God only owns the cattle on a thousand hills - what about the rest?
Instead, the Hebrew people frequently used the number 1000 the way we might use a 'gazillion' or some people say 'gajillion'. It just means a really big non-specific amount. All of the money - or people - or whatever. "We're going to rob a bank and steal a gazillion bucks!"

That's the thousand. In fact, in the OT unless it is actually counting out something like how many soldiers were going into a certain battle, the number 1000 is very rarely literal. It means a big all encompassing complete number.

It's the same in the New Testament. 2 Peter 3:8 says:

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”

It is showing the different ways God can view time, from viewing the overarching grand progress of the whole of history - all gazillion years of it - down to zooming in and studying each day and each person's single prayer like He had the whole of eternity to concentrate on it!

2 Peter 3:8 is far from some sort of spy-code suggesting how to decode weird end-times-tables. Rather, it is a profoundly practical and comforting verse. It says God is capable of knowing both the whole of eternity and stooping down to listen to your individual prayer as if you were the only person in the whole world.

Futurists grab 2 Peter 3:8 as some kind of Rosetta stone or Enigma machine that then lets them install their end-times-tables randomly over any parts of the bible that refer to days. It’s their excuse to justify their futurist presuppositions and charts. But they ignore the other part of the message. If a day is like a 1000 years, when do futurists turn around and do the other equation and make 1000 years like a day? When do they take each day and multiply it by 1000? It's now 2020 which is about 737,300 days. Multiplied by 1000 would equal 737.3 MILLION heavenly years! Um, what to do with that? Futurists just ignore it.

Apparently 2 Peter 3 can only be read their way, and then the flip around and include this bit and ignore that bit and draw up a few lines on their crazy-wall and tada! It's all happening in the next 7 years. Every time. Because apparently if Revelation isn't a timetable about us - then it's boring.
View attachment 286458

John didn't really mean Chapter One where he says he has written it to HIS generation, ABOUT his generation, FOR HIS generation to KEEP and OBEY. No - apparently that's all code for our generation. When his generation of Christians was about to experience the wrath of the Roman Empire, apparently he decided to tell them "Forget your troubles - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" Yeah, apparently.

But I'm not buying it. When I read Chapter 1 - it is definitely about his generation - reminding them that the Lord would win. No matter how bad it got, stay faithful, because God is worth it.

Even if Satan seemed to be in charge in times and places - there would also be ways in which he was also bound. He is bound in regards to stopping the gospel getting out to the nations. That's it! He's not bound from setting up Hitler or Stalin or North Korea. That stuff happens! That stuff may always happen until the Lord returns. But the gospel can thrive even in these nations - and it still goes on from persecution to triumph. The church is thriving in both Iran and China. Indeed, I'm hopeful China becomes a democracy in the next generation under the influence of a huge church that may create some social tipping points.

The 1000 years is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible - but ultimately when read as the metaphor it is for a gazillion years - both 2 Peter 3 and the so-called 'millennium' and many other things fall into place. And maybe we can get on with the gospel, stop trying to guess the date of the return, and put our crazy-walls away.

What exactly are Amils trying to prove by these arguments? Most Premils agree that a 'thousand' in the Bible doesn't always mean in the literal sense every single time. Some of us are not disputing that. But what Amils seem to be disputing is, that a thousand can also mean in the literal sense in the Bible as well.

What Amils really need to be trying to prove is, that when a cardinal number is followed by years in the Bible, that it doesn't mean in the literal sense every time. Meaning any amount of years not involving a thousand, in order to determine whether or not there is a strict pattern in the Bible, concerning this, and that if there is, why this would not also apply to thousand if it too is followed by years.

 

[Zao is life]

Where does it say that the "reign of the beast" only lasts for "42 months"? Nowhere. You foist that upon the text. You have to.



So, you invent an extra-biblical argument that is not in the text (and therefore not believed by Amils) and then add an absurd conclusion (that Amils do not hold to), and then present this as a viable argument. That is insane. You prove nothing but your ignorance of the Amil position. Most Amils relate the 42 months to Satan's little season and see the beast and Satan doing their wickedness throughout the intra-Advent period while cranking it up prior to the coming of Christ and the GWT.

You are trying to refute Amil with a faulty Premil perspective of Rev 20. That does not work. In fact, your whole argument falls apart here.



It is your reasoning that is illogical, not Amil. You have been shown this repeatedly over the years yet refuse to accept the truth.



How many times do we need to tell you, they do not?



You start off with an erroneous conclusion and then build upon that sandy foundation. That is why your argument completely falls apart. Sand is never a good surface to build your theology.

With respect to you, I was following your argument (though not agreeing with it, but at least understanding it) until you implied that DavidPT is insane by saying

So, you invent an extra-biblical argument that is not in the text (and therefore not believed by Amils) and then add an absurd conclusion (that Amils do not hold to), and then present this as a viable argument. That is insane.

Choosing words like "that is insane" is not conducive to any civilized discussion. If you had merely said,

You prove nothing but your ignorance of the Amil position. Most Amils relate the 42 months to Satan's little season and see the beast and Satan doing their wickedness throughout the intra-Advent period while cranking it up prior to the coming of Christ and the GWT.

then you would not (a) first annoy; and (b) lose your reader, so that the reader does not even want to read the rest.

So, the reason, as I see it, why Premils and Amils will continue to disagree, is because Premils understand that the 42 months cannot begin until the abyss is opened, "locusts" come out of the abyss, and we literally see the rise of this end-time final empire, and see how it makes war against the saints and overcomes them, how this ties in with Daniel's prophecy about the beast that is destroyed by the stone cut out without hands wearing out the saints of the most high and they (the saints) are given into his hand for a time, times and a half a time.

Therefore since, as you say,

Most Amils relate the 42 months to Satan's little season and see the beast and Satan doing their wickedness throughout the intra-Advent period while cranking it up prior to the coming of Christ and the GWT.

It shows me exactly why Amils and Premils differ and will continue to differ.

This let's me heave a sigh of relief, however, that IF (notice I said IF in order to be objective) Premils are correct in the way we interpret it, then it won't take until after the return of Christ for Amils to see the error in their interpretation - because when the abyss is opened and these things begin to take place, Amils will begin questioning their interpretation.

So, to get back to what DavidPT was saying,

1. The abyss must have been opened for the beast that will receive its power, its seat (kingdom of Satan in the world) and great authority from Satan, to ascend out of it.
2. The beast must have ascended from the abyss in order for saints to be martyred for their refusal to receive its mark or the number of its name.
3. The saints of chapter 20 who were seen at the beginning of the thousand years, were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast, receive its mark or the number of its name.

It just so happens that in THE passage in the Revelation which CLOSES with talking about the harvest, we read:

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice,

Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them.

THE PASSAGES CLOSES WITH THE HARVEST and THE WRATH OF GOD:

And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud,

Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.
And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia. (Revelation 14:6-20)

The above scenario, (which we must bear in mind has been revealed to us by the Lord), agrees with many other statements in the Old and New Testaments, for example:

Daniel's prophecy, which I highlight and bold below:

Daniel 7: 17-27
These four great beasts are four kings; they shall arise out of the earth.
But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
Then I wanted to know the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, very frightening, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of bronze; who devoured, broke in pieces, and stamped the rest with his feet;
and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth speaking very great things, whose look was greater than his fellows.

I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them
until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
And he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth, and shall trample it and crush it.
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.

And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

It's the saints who are given into his hand for a time, times and a half a time - because it's the saints who are said to be "worn out" (Hebrew: b'la, afflict) by this beast, and in verse 21 we read that Daniel saw this beast making war against the saints, and prevailing against them.

In Revelation 13, the beast has 10 horns and makes war against the saints and overcomes them.

Besides the above, there are many other (a) prophecies made; and (b) statements made in both the Old and New Testaments which collide with the notion that (a) we are living in the one-thousand year period NOW; and (b) that the 42-month reign of the beast is upon us and has been upon us since Pentecost.

Therefore, as you can see, the notion (whatever you want to call it) that we Premils have that the martyrdom of the saints who refuse to receive the mark of the beast or the number of its name, will take place in the final 42 months preceding the Lord's return, is neither extra-Biblical, nor absurd, nor insane.

If Revelation's 42-month reign of the beast = 2,000 years + (x years), then Daniel's "time, times and a half a time" = 2,000 years + (x years) also, and the abyss was opened on the day of Christ's resurrection, or on the day of Pentecost, circa A.D 30-33; and the Greek word used to denote a one-thousand year period in the Revelation is faulty, and Satan has been both bound and "not bound" all at the same time for 2,000 years + (x years).

The saints of chapter 20 who were seen at the beginning of the thousand years, were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast, receive its mark or the number of its name - which you agreed only occurs at the close of the age immediately before Christ's return.

I don't see how you can use the words "absurd", "insane" and "extra-Biblical" to describe Premils and what we believe - because according to you there will be saints martyred at the close of the thousand years for their refusal to worship the beast or receive it mark, but they live and reign with Christ from the beginning of the one thousand years. ie a symbolic millennium before they were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive its mark.

 

[BABerean2]

So no one has a choice in when it happens?

It will shock many people when it does happen.

Many do not understand that Dispensationalists need a Pretrib removal of the Church, so that God can go back and deal with Israel under the Old Covenant system. It is one of the pillars of the doctrine. Like a three legged stool, the doctrine collapses without it.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God Doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Zao is life]

Why would you disagree with that if you agree that they depend on each other? I believe being cast into the pit symbolically represents the concept of their power being reduced and restrained (not completely taken away). If the beast has had its power reduced and restrained then it only follows that would be the case for the dragon as well, in my opinion.

David, you are a futurist and a literalist. I am neither. So, everything you said there is all based on the assumption that everything (or at least almost everything) in the book of Revelation will occur only in the future and is based on the assumption that the text must be literal unless it's spelled out for us that it's figurative or symbolic.

Our approaches to interpreting the book are so different that it is impossible for us to ever agree on everything in the book as long as that is the case.

You said "I fully realize Amils also place the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age as well". No, that is not true. Only an amil futurist would do that. But, there are also partial preterist amils, historicist amils and idealist amils (like me and sovereigngrace).

My view is that the references to "42 months", "a time, times and half a time" and "1260 days" are all symbolic for the NT time period because that time period started around the time of Christ's first coming or possibly when He ascended. I'll explain this, so read on first before commenting on this, please.

If you look at Rev 12 you can see Jesus ascends to heaven and there is war in heaven and Satan is cast out. We talked about this and you seemed to agree that the timing of Satan being cast out of heaven was when Jesus ascended. If you continue reading in Rev 12 you should see that he then immediately went out to make war against "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.". That lines up with this:

Rev 13:1-9
13 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Rev 12 speaks of the dragon, Satan, being cast out of heaven when Christ ascended and then going to make war with God's people (Christians). Notice in this passage from Rev 13 that it talks about the beast waging "war against God's holy people". Is there any basis for thinking that the dragon making war against God's people, as mentioned in Rev 12, and the beast waging war against people, as mentioned in Rev 13, are speaking of different time periods? I don't believe so. Remember, the beast gets its power from the dragon, so they work together.

So, if Rev 12 and Rev 13 are speaking of the same time periods, as I believe, then that means the dragon (Satan) and the beast started making war with Christians right after Jesus ascended to heaven. Obviously, that didn't just happen for 42 months, so the 42 months has to be symbolic. It shouldn't be that hard to believe that the time periods mentioned in the book are symbolic when so much of the rest of the book is clearly symbolic. But, I know you, with your tendency to see things literally, have a very hard time seeing it that way.

You are probably wondering at this point how I can think that the dragon and beast can make war with God's people if they are in the pit. Remember, I don't see being bound in the pit as meaning they can't do anything at all. Their power is restrained to an extent, but not completely taken away. They can't stop the spread of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit, but they can still persecute Christians. Remember, the binding of Satan has to do with him deceiving people and bringing them all together as one against Christ, not with him persecuting believers.

One last thing for now because this post it quite long at this point. You probably assume the beast coming out of the sea is the same as the beast coming out of the pit, but if that was the case then why doesn't it say the beast comes out of the pit instead of out the sea? There must be a difference between the sea and the pit, so I see no reason to assume that the beast coming out of the sea equates to the beast coming out of the pit.

That's enough for now. I have more to say on this, but feel free to respond to what I've said so far and then we can go from there.

Thank you for explaining your view so well, Spiritual Israel!

I think we are getting down to the crux of the matter.

As you have correctly pointed out, the reason why Premils and Amils will continue to disagree, is because Premils believe that the 42 months cannot begin until the abyss is opened, "locusts" come out of the abyss, and we literally see the rise of this end-time final empire, and see how it makes war against the saints and overcomes them, and how this ties in with Daniel's prophecy about the beast that is destroyed by the stone cut out without hands wearing out the saints of the most high and they (the saints) are given into his hand for a time, times and a half a time.

I'm going to quote that scripture further down, to compare it with Revelation 13.

But first, let's get back to what DavidPT said in another post, (according to Premil):-

1. The abyss must have been opened for the beast that will receive its power, its seat (kingdom of Satan in the world) and great authority from Satan, to ascend out of it.

2. The beast must have ascended from out of the opened abyss in order for saints to be martyred for their refusal to receive its mark or the number of its name.

3. The saints of chapter 20 who were seen at the beginning of what the Greek refers to as a one-thousand year period, were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast, or its image, or receive its mark, or the number of its name.

I'm going to compare this with the verses in the Revelation which are found in the same chapter which speaks about the harvest, which verses precede the verses speaking about the harvest, before I go on to Daniel:

-------------------------------------------------------​

Introducing THE verses in the Revelation which speak about the harvest, we read:

"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice,.."

(Note: The Two witnesses are said to be martyred by the beast ascended out of the abyss when they complete their testimony, and they are martyred 3 1/2 days before the resurrection - and the beast itself is said to reign over every nation and kindred and tongue and people; and in Matthew 24 Jesus stated that "this gospel of the kingdom must first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come).

"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice,

Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

THE PASSAGES CLOSES WITH THE HARVEST and THE WRATH OF GOD:

"And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud,

Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia." (Revelation 14:6-20)

-----------------------------------------------------------------​

The above scenario, (which we must bear in mind has been revealed to us by the Lord), agrees with many other statements in the Old and New Testaments, for example (only one example to shorten this already lengthy post), Daniel's prophecy, which I highlight and bold below:

Daniel 7: 17-27
"These four great beasts are four kings; they shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.

Then I wanted to know the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, very frightening, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of bronze; who devoured, broke in pieces, and stamped the rest with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth speaking very great things, whose look was greater than his fellows.

I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth, and shall trample it and crush it.

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.

And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him."

[ In verses 11-12 of the same passage, it states: "Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.

And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." ]

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In Daniel, it's the saints who are given into the beast's hand for a time, times and a half a time - because it's the saints who are said to be "worn out" (Hebrew: b'la, afflict) by this beast, and in verse 21 we read that Daniel saw this beast making war against the saints, and prevailing against them."

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In Revelation 13, the beast that has ascended out of the opened abyss has 10 horns and makes war against the saints, and overcomes them. The same beast makes war against the two witnesses, overcomes them, and kills them.

(Besides the above, there are many other (a) prophecies made; and (b) statements made in both the Old and New Testaments which, to a Premil, collide with the notion that (a) we are living in the one-thousand year period NOW; and (b) that the 42-month reign of the beast is upon us and has been upon us since Pentecost). But let me continue, and then close this post:

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In view of the above, if Revelation's 42-month reign of the beast = 2,000 years+ (+ x years), then Daniel's "time, times and a half a time" = 2,000 years+ also, and the abyss was opened on the day of Christ's resurrection, or on the day of Pentecost, circa A.D 30-33; and the Greek word used to denote a one-thousand year period in the Revelation is faulty, and Satan has been both bound and "not bound" all at the same time for 2,000 years+.

Premils therefore believe that the saints who were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast or receive its mark (and who are seen by John living and reigning with Christ from the beginning of what the Greek refers to as a one-thousand year period), were martryred at the close of this age, after the abyss was opened and the beast rose from out of the abyss, during the 42 months preceding the return of the Lord.

We cannot therefore see how these saints can live and reign with Christ in a symbolic millennium before the beast ascended out of the abyss and martyred them.

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So, it's a question of who is (unwittingly and without realizing it) "mentally adjusting the meaning" of many passages of scripture to fit in with their understanding: Premils, or Amils?

 

[iamlamad]

Anyone who claims those who do not believe in the Pretrib doctrine will be "left behind" at the return of Christ has turned their doctrine into a cult.
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Hebrews 9:28 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(no one from any "cult"wrote this. My guess is, Paul wrote it.)

Are you LOOKING for and expecting His coming - like tonight?
Can you honestly say yes to this?

For those that cannot say yes, then Jesus is not coming for you. It is scripture.