To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

[Hazelelponi]

Well, most people already made up their mind about the doctrine they hold already, so I don't see any point in rebutting.

My objective is more to understand how people form their doctrine.

I'm a Calvinist... but not a cessationalist..

I guess I mainly base that on my own experiences, as well as hearing things coming out of the mission field, first hand accounts of missionary Pastors and the miraculous things that they experienced.

It doesn't seem to be the same level perhaps as demonstrated by the Apostles, but it does indeed still appear to occur. People speak of missionaries knowing to meet a certain person by revelation, or a newly saved individual feeling led to go to a town they've never been in before to meet with a person, without knowing why only to find a missionary.

Others have their lives saved by taking a certain direction over another in an area of high persecution, or being led to stay in an area only to find it's the only safe place for them to stay.

I think great caution needs to be used when considering accounts, as certainly I believe there is also a counterfeit spirit also based on real world accounts and testimony...

But in most areas these days there isn't the need of the powerful moving of the Spirit, as because of the Spirit of God many areas are quite safe, so we won't see nor experience the same types of things.

I don't believe God does things needlessly, i.e. He doesn't demonstrate His power just to prove Himself powerful (He's God and has nothing to prove) there's always a reason and that reason is to lead people to Himself... so the little things that seem so powerful and miraculous in one area, might not be seen in other areas of the world..

But God absolutely still moves in great power among His people.

I also think we need to consider what the Spirit of prophecy is, and what it is not, as well as what tongues are, verses what it is not...

Tongues biblically isn't mumbo jumbo it's actual languages that real people can actually understand, as seen in Acts.. Mumbo jumbo is false, while an Indian walking into an American church and hearing the gospel in his own language is speaking in tongues, biblically.

The Spirit of Prophecy is a teaching spirit, and people like Charles Stanley, Paul Washer, Wayne Grudem among others have that gift even if they never demonstrate the ability to foretell the future...

So on and so forth...

Our world is so much different in some ways than it was 2000 years ago, and in others much the same.

I do think so many people hyperfocus on the miraculous and things God does in power, and overlook the relationship between them and God, which is what all of it's about in the first place.

Ted Cruizes father gave an account in 2015 leading up to the primary elections in which he spoke of Cruizes family and pastor and some elders all praying together for God's will in Ted Cruize's presidential run.

He spoke of God telling them in that prayer session they needed to seek God's face, and not His hand.

They errantly extrapolated their desires on what that meant, and decided it meant that Cruize was going to be the next president.

When I heard this account, the second I heard it I knew Cruize wasn't going to be the republican nominee... because anyone with Biblical knowledge knows that when your seeking God's hand your seeking a manifestation of God's power, and if your seeking God's face your seeking the relationship.

So when God told Ted Cruize he needed not to seek the power of God for presidency, but rather foster a deeper relationship with Him, Mr. CRUIZE ignored God's call to him completely...

Which is, sadly, a problem with many Christians today. God is saying to them to deepen their relationship with Him and they seek nothing more than God's power to achieve their own ends, regardless of what those ends are, healing, powerful ministries that rake in the dough, powerful job positions, it's all about God's power and if they don't get what they want they walk away - because they don't want the relationship.

It's why Jesus said that for those who seek signs none will be given them but the sign of Jonah.

We are definitely in that generation, more so than the first generation that was marked first by the relationship that led to them being willing to die for their faith.

When the relationship exists in its fullest potential, I do think very real signs are still a mark... if and when God desires it so.

When I was saved it was as if all of heaven opened up and poured down on me... but it didn't stop me using my mind, and the gift God gave me to develop a greater understanding of His Word, and that did prevent me from attendance at a charismatic church, even though I'm not a cessationist. Doctrine is what was everything to the Apostles, not expressions of God's power...

 

[Saint Steven]

I have a sense that you worship at a word of faith church, or learn that doctrine from bethel church.

I Guess You might have read bill johnson book heaven on earth?

That's part of the story. I did actually read that book. I was raised Evangelical though.

 

[Guojing]

That's part of the story. I did actually read that book. I was raised Evangelical though.

I think that book by bill Johnson summed up the beliefs of word of faith Churches Regarding signs and wonders

I am currently attending one too. I started to sense a “disturbance in the force” last year when I realised they kept singing songs from bethel.

After I got a chance to read that book, the correct title should be "When Heaven Invades Earth", I began to see where the senior pastor preaching about tongues and healing came from.

 

[Guojing]

I'm a Calvinist... but not a cessationalist..

I guess I mainly base that on my own experiences, as well as hearing things coming out of the mission field, first hand accounts of missionary Pastors and the miraculous things that they experienced.

It doesn't seem to be the same level perhaps as demonstrated by the Apostles, but it does indeed still appear to occur. People speak of missionaries knowing to meet a certain person by revelation, or a newly saved individual feeling led to go to a town they've never been in before to meet with a person, without knowing why only to find a missionary.

Thanks for sharing, I would consider you as a partial continualist/cessationalist, as I have explained earlier in this thread here To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

 

[Saint Steven]

I think that book by bill Johnson summed up the beliefs of word of faith Churches Regarding signs and wonders

I am currently attending one too. I started to sense a “disturbance in the force” last year when I realised they kept singing songs from bethel.

After I got a chance to read that book, the correct title should be "When Heaven Invades Earth", I began to see where the senior pastor preaching about tongues and healing came from.

Have you had/sought the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Or still trying to understand it. I've been through all this. I made the transition from Evangelicalism, where it was warned against. I knew there was more. I didn't buy the standard stance against it.

I thought your earlier posts were to refute mine, but perhaps you are seeking answers.

 

[Guojing]

Have you had/sought the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Or still trying to understand it. I've been through all this. I made the transition from Evangelicalism, where it was warned against. I knew there was more. I didn't buy the standard stance against it.

I thought your earlier posts were to refute mine, but perhaps you are seeking answers.

As I said, I don't participate in forums to refute others. Its more to understand how others form their doctrine.

As for the Baptism of the HS, I am a tongue speaking Charismatic, but for now, I think tongue speaking is no longer necessary for that.

 

[Saint Steven]

As I said, I don't participate in forums to refute others. Its more to understand how others form their doctrine.

As for the Baptism of the HS, I am a tongue speaking Charismatic, but for now, I think tongue speaking is no longer necessary for that.

I agree.
We (as a church body) are here to guide people into that experience, but it is not a requirement, or expectation. And I have known some believers that don't speak in tongues but have other MUCH NEEDED manifestations of the Spirit.

And even in the book of Acts, we see other manifestations listed as EVIDENCE of the filling with the Spirit. Examples below.

We are not told how many had which evidence.
- In Acts nineteen, did everyone speak in tongues and prophesy?
Or did some speak in tongues and some prophesy?
- In Acts ten, did everyone speak in tongues and praise God?
Or did some speak in tongues and some praise God?

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. ...

 

[Guojing]

I agree.
We (as a church body) are here to guide people into that experience, but it is not a requirement, or expectation. And I have known some believers that don't speak in tongues but have other MUCH NEEDED manifestations of the Spirit.

And even in the book of Acts, we see other manifestations listed as EVIDENCE of the filling with the Spirit. Examples below.

We are not told how many had which evidence.
- In Acts nineteen, did everyone speak in tongues and prophesy?
Or did some speak in tongues and some prophesy?
- In Acts ten, did everyone speak in tongues and praise God?
Or did some speak in tongues and some praise God?

Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. ...

My suspicion on why WOF or other Bethel friendly church insist on starting with tongues is because it is the easiest to "fake".

Tongues began as known foreign languages at Acts 2, and there was no clear indication of any change.

But by now, most charismatic churches latched on to what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2-4 and taught that it is now a heavenly "shaba laka la" language.

As for other gifts, its much harder to fake them.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Guojing
I should also mention that manifestations are very downplayed at our church.
I actually had a new attender ask in bewilderment, "So, does anyone speak in tongues at this church?" - lol

I assured him that we did, and made a point to speak in tongues the next time we were in a prayer circle together. (thus giving him an environment of permission) We encourage others to enter in when we model our own freedom.

When I play an instrument on the worship team, if I raise my hands, I see hands suddenly go up all over the congregation.

 

[Saint Steven]

My suspicion on why WOF or other Bethel friendly church insist on starting with tongues is because it is the easiest to "fake".

Tongues began as known foreign languages at Acts 2, and there was no clear indication of any change.

But by now, most charismatic churches latched on to what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2-4 and taught that it is now a heavenly "shaba laka la" language.

As for other gifts, its much harder to fake them.

This is all very controversial, of course.
But to claim that tongues is being faked, infers a malicious activity of some sort.

And I agree that there are some individuals who fake it for their own reasons. (to fit in, or whatever) And others that fake it till they make it. (priming the pump) And still others that manifest incredibly right away, or even spontaneously with no foreknowledge of what it even is. There are a whole range of experiences.

And I see five different kinds of tongues in the Bible. Which I posted earlier. I'll look for it and re-post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

 

[Saint Steven]

Tongues began as known foreign languages at Acts 2, and there was no clear indication of any change.

There is always the possibility that someone who speaks the language being manifested is present to hear and understand it. But this is only one purpose of tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:2)

And the anti-tongues people use this as an argument against tongues. Requesting some sort of linguistic proof of what it is.

On occasion I will be out in public somewhere and hear a foreign tongue being spoken. It catches my attention because it sounds like tongues at church.

 

[Saint Steven]

As for other gifts, its much harder to fake them.

If you have an accomplice, raising the dead is easier than faking tongues. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

But by now, most charismatic churches latched on to what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2-4 and taught that it is now a heavenly "shaba laka la" language.

Where does 1Cor.14 fit in your understanding of tongues?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

If you have an accomplice, raising the dead is easier than faking tongues. - lol

anyone can babble baby talk which in unintelligible, tongues today is no language at all unlike BIBLICAL tongues that ceased with the Apostles and were actual languages.

 

[Albion]

Tongues began as known foreign languages at Acts 2, and there was no clear indication of any change.

That's true.

But by now, most charismatic churches latched on to what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2-4 and taught that it is now a heavenly "shaba laka la" language.

That is also true.

As for other gifts, its much harder to fake them.

Right. That's why they are seldom mentioned when the claim is made that there has not been a cessation of the gifts. (It's almost always 'speaking in tongues' with an occasional mention of one or two of the others named in Corinthians).

 

[Guojing]

Where does 1Cor.14 fit in your understanding of tongues?

I believe in using clear scripture to interpret unclear scripture.

Tongues was first mentioned at Pentecost where it was a known foreign language (Acts 2:5 onwards)

When tongues was mentioned again in Acts 10, Peter stated in Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

So again Cornelius and the gentiles were speaking with known foreign languages.

But when it comes to 1 Cor 14, things get vague I agree. Paul seem to imply that tongues have become a personal prayer language, leading to churches interpret as the shaba la type.

But if you follow the principle of using clear to interpret unclear, I lean more towards tongues as known foreign languages.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I believe in using clear scripture to interpret unclear scripture.

Tongues was first mentioned at Pentecost where it was a known foreign language (Acts 2:5 onwards)

When tongues was mentioned again in Acts 10, Peter stated in Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

So again Cornelius and the gentiles were speaking with known foreign languages.

But when it comes to 1 Cor 14, things get vague I agree. Paul seem to imply that tongues have become a personal prayer language, leading to churches interpret as the shaba la type.

But if you follow the principle of using clear to interpret unclear, I lean more towards tongues as known foreign languages.

Tongues are definitely known languages and not todays charismatic babbling we see everywhere which is a cheap imitation.

And like Paul said ;

"I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. "

charismatic's would have us believe just the OPPOSITE lol..........

and he likens that way of thinking to that of INFANTS.

 

[Guojing]

Tongues are definitely known languages and not todays charismatic babbling we see everywhere which is a cheap imitation.

And like Paul said ;

"I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. "

charismatic's would have us believe just the OPPOSITE lol..........

and he likens that way of thinking to that of INFANTS.

Yes, I recalled recently, in this year when I felt my senior pastor wrongly interpreted 1 Cor 14:21. @Saint Steven, this is for you too since you asked me about 1 Cor 14.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

since Paul quoted from Isaiah 28:11-12

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

He concluded that Paul is saying "If you speak in tongues, God will give you rest."

Again I felt a disturbance in the force. When I read the entire context of Isaiah 28 again, the Israelites (the northern kingdom) were so hard-hearted and stubborn in breaching their covenant with God that God sent a judgment upon them (the Assyrian nation – who spoke in the Akkadian language – a foreign language that Israel would not have known) by bringing them into Assyrian captivity.

The northern kingdom of Israel rejected the rest and the covenant relationship from God, hence, God speak to them in foreign tongues, which again is a language.

The causality is hence

If you reject the rest, then God will speak to you in foreign tongues (the Assyrian language of Akkadian).

and NOT

If you speak in tongues, the "shaka la bala" type, God will give you rest.

If anyone is keen, this was the part of the sermon.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=598042527780569

 

[JohnT]

I believe in using clear scripture to interpret unclear scripture.

Wow! a WoFer using solid hermenutic principles! Wonders never cease!

When tongues was mentioned again in Acts 10, Peter stated in Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

So again Cornelius and the gentiles were speaking with known foreign languages.

Scripture says what you are saying:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another,.........

[STAFF EDITED]

 

[Guojing]

Wow! a WoFer using solid hermenutic principles! Wonders never cease!



Scripture says what you are saying:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another,.........



What are you talking about?

1. Shabbaaaaa began as an underground dancehall-influenced event, and has grown into a global new-youth centric movement.
2. The Sanskrit term Śabala can be transliterated into English as Sabala or Shabala, using the IAST transliteration scheme
3. Shabala means something in Buddhism, Pali, Hinduism, Sanskrit, Jainism, Prakrit, Marathi
4. Originating in the Ohio Farm Town of Mount Vernon a random individual refered to as "Shmonkle" coined the term "Shabala". It was random as hell but everyone agreed it totally kicked ass.

Number 4 is a direct quote from Urban Dictionary: shabala

I do not think any of those definitions fit, so I am asking if you are making stuff up?

I am trying to put myself in the shoes of a Charismatic, to understand his point of view. As I have concluded, I believe tongues are a known foreign language, but this is not a salvation issue.

So I am fine with others who think otherwise, since I used to think like them too.