Ever changed your mind?

[Scott Husted]

The gospel of Damnationism:
Receive the free gift of salvation. Otherwise God will incinerate you.

The claim of Damnationism:
Jesus died to save you from God.

If your going to be afraid of anybody God is a good place to start, but he has never been our adversary.

 

[Saint Steven]

If your going to be afraid of anybody God is a good place to start, but he has never been our adversary.

You might feel differently if you learned that you had been predestined to eternal conscious torment. And that only a select few were chosen to not suffer your fate. With no reason given for why this happened. A seemingly random selection.

 

[Scott Husted]

our own reasoning is where Truth is crucified ...

First example can be found in the phrase, the woman thou gavest me she did give me and I did eat ... a third ... in a line of questions ...

 

[Scott Husted]

You might feel differently if you learned that you had been predestined to eternal conscious torment. And that only a select few were chosen to not suffer your fate. With no reason given for why this happened. A seemingly random selection.

Reason with man become unclean reason with God well, you get the picture ...

 

[Saint Steven]

Reason with man become unclean reason with God well, you get the picture ...

The common doctrine of the narrow way (Damnationism), means countless billions will be lost with no hope of escape. Eternal conscious torment.

The Annihilationists say the lost souls will be incinerated in short order. A seemingly more "humane" solution to the "problem".

Universal Restoration says that the plan is to restore all of creation. To set everything right.

There is biblical support for all three of these views of the final judgment. But reason tells me that the God that expects me to love my enemies would do no less with his own enemies.

 

[Scott Husted]

The common doctrine of the narrow way (Damnationism), means countless billions will be lost with no hope of escape. Eternal conscious torment.

The Annihilationists say the lost souls will be incinerated in short order. A seemingly more "humane" solution to the "problem".

Universal Restoration says that the plan is to restore all of creation. To set everything right.

There is biblical support for all three of these views of the final judgment. But reason tells me that the God that expects me to love my enemies would do no less with his own enemies.

Often God appears as one who holds others to higher standard then he does himself ...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

A huge percentage of Christianity is Charismatic and Pentecostal. You just trashed the whole lot. Have you no fear of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? (attributing the work of God to Satan) What Jesus calls the unpardonable sin.

Many have culture shock and find out that they are not comfortable with a Charismatic and Pentecostal church. That's fine, it's not for everyone. Some think a church service should resemble a funeral, instead of a celebration. If that's what you are comfortable with, you should do it. But don't trash those who want to get excited about God.

and you have no idea as usual regarding the unpardonable sin.

 

[Cormack]

However, none of it are private ideas, but truth God has shown to me,

Good morning, @venksta. So you’re telling me it’s not a private idea of yours because it’s a private revelation of yours. “God has shown” you something privately, but the only way you’re able to communicate the new private revelation of God is by changing the meaning of language in the Bible. That’s not super convincing. If God’s the author of both Bible truth and your private beliefs I’m sure he’d at least use phrases like “tree of life” consistently.

I'll reply back at a later time, once I have better words to use to share about this.

I’m not sure you’re ever going to cash that check, although I’d read with interest if you tried.

We had a family friend, who happened to be a Jehovah's Witness. My mother, not knowing better at the time, asked if he could teach me the bible in secret,

If that’s the case then you’re aware of how mighty and well versed witnesses can appear to be around the Bible. The Watchtower will take any opportunity or partial Bible verse to try and gain authority over your material wealth, and spiritual control of your thoughts, feelings and ultimate destiny.

Many of the witnesses themselves are turned into unwitting tools, whilst the Watchtower group denies them “the only Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.“

How does the Watchtower group enslave the minds of so many people to their philosophy? By their private revelation and misuse of biblical language. We are more guarded than that, right?

Deciding that decision making is like Russian roulette is a decision you’ve made. The gun only goes off in your face when you try to reason that reasoning is bad, that’s the loaded chamber.

Christians don’t make decisions arbitrarily, they make decisions based upon principles. Like principles you’ll find in Gods word. If a person thinks that choices are like a random game of death, that only tells me that their choices are not informed by principles.

^^^^^ Again if decision making is as random or as dangerous as Russian roulette, then your decision to believe that idea would be Russian roulette too. You cut off the branch you’re sitting upon.

But that is an early example of different people's perspectives in my life, putting the truth of Christ in bondage. Also being a fearful child, did not help with thinking about asking questions. I just went with what I was told, by people I believed in.

How do families, friends and neighbours keep us as fearful children? By anger, guilt, conspiracies of silence, by being unapproachable. The fact is that reasoning with those people makes life into a struggle because they’re wicked people. They can’t read a Bible without reading their own wickedness into its pages, for which “the truth of Christ is in bondage.“

The flip side of that is there are people who speak freely, debate openly, learn carefully and can be reasoned with because they see the value in reason. Gods gift of reason made inside of every man is loved, not shunned. However, if a person sees no value in reason they can’t be reasoned with, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[venksta]

Hi @Cormack ,

After honey badger replied, after my initial reply, I realized what a fool I was, as I was slow to listen but quick to speak. I'm very grateful you have all pointed out these issues with what I had to say. I have rarely shared in these parts of the forums. I am aware now I am not a child in spiritual maturity, but an infant, who thought he could dialogue with spiritual mature adults. Thank you for giving me a place to share, even if foolishly, but be corrected with truth.

Blessings to you brother.

 

[Cormack]

Hi @Cormack ,

After honey badger replied, after my initial reply, I realized what a fool I was, as I was slow to listen but quick to speak. I'm very grateful you have all pointed out these issues with what I had to say. I have rarely shared in these parts of the forums. I am aware now I am not a child in spiritual maturity, but an infant, who thought he could dialogue with spiritual mature adults. Thank you for giving me a place to share, even if foolishly, but be corrected with truth.

Blessings to you brother.

That’s a fair reply. God bless us and stay in touch, we’re all maturing together.

 

[Saint Steven]

Often God appears as one who holds others to higher standard then he does himself ...

That's why I don't buy the angry volcano god characterization of God we were taught in church. It doesn't add up. Unfortunately most Christians are happy to accept this character assassination, shrugging when they say, "It's in the Bible." Besides, "Who is the clay to tell the potter what he can do?" Thus painting God as a cosmic tyrant with a complete lack of self-control. And then we turn around and recite the fruit of the Spirit. "Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." None of which describe the caricature of God we have been given. Isn't the Spirit from whom the fruit comes a part of God? (yes) Then comes the explanation of a Janus-faced god of love and justice. As if this somehow balances everything out. We want God to love us but give our enemies hell. And we conveniently forget that mercy is an optional verdict when justice is delivered. And that God's love and mercy are unfailing.

 

[Saint Steven]

and you have no idea as usual regarding the unpardonable sin.

There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.

 

[Cormack]

Then comes the explanation of a Janus-faced god of love and justice.

Consider justice in light of Gods wrath and an eternal duration in hell.

Are finite crimes deserving of an infinite punishment? Surely they’re not. Atheists have argued this way for years and we reject their reasoning, why?

Of course an eternal punishment isn’t reasonable in light of a finite crime if the crimes duration is the only thing under consideration, but what about the magnitude of the crime?

It can take a conman hours or years to swindle someone, but a killer only needs 1 second to fatally stab somebody. Which was the greater crime? The taking of a life clearly, but that happened in an instant.

We could reason that the magnitude of crimes against God (however short lived) deserve an eternity of punishment because the offended party is of infinite greatness.

Perhaps the duration isn’t why hellfire is eternal, but rather the magnitude of the crime demands an eternity of punishment.

That line of reasoning resonated with me for many years. Does it hold strong though? Not biblically or logically. Biblically it’s the furthest thing from both the Bible portrait and our own lived experience with Jesus, Jesus who waits on our rebellion, protects us, saved us and nurtures our faith daily.

Logically is a real kicker though.

If the only just punishment for the rebel sinner is an eternal duration of hellfire, then nobody will have justice done, God can never say “it is finished,” because the punishment is never finished.

If the finite crime doesn’t deserve infinite punishment, then God wouldn’t doom people to hell forever,

If the finite crime does deserve infinite punishment, then God can never see justice done.

So, that’s a small part of how Christians change their mind, in my experience. I don’t see “reasoning with men” as wicked or immoral because God has put godly men in our midst, He’s given us all a spiritual family. People aren’t roadblocks to knowing God, they’re made in His image and part of how we know Him better.

 

[Saint Steven]

Logically is a real kicker though.

If the only just punishment for the rebel sinner is an eternal duration of hellfire, then nobody will have justice done, God can never say “it is finished,” because the punishment is never finished.

If the finite crime doesn’t deserve infinite punishment, then God wouldn’t doom people to hell forever,

If the finite crime does deserve infinite punishment, then God can never see justice done.

So, that’s a small part of how Christians change their mind, in my experience. I don’t see “reasoning with men” as wicked or immoral because God has put godly men in our midst, He’s given us all a spiritual family. People aren’t roadblocks to knowing God, they’re made in His image and part of how we know Him better.

Right.
Hell is not a remedy for sin. Restoration is though.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.

Is Jesus walking this earth performing miracles ?

 

[Saint Steven]

Is Jesus walking this earth performing miracles ?

I'm not surprised that you disagree.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.

 

[Scott Husted]

That's why I don't buy the angry volcano god characterization of God we were taught in church. It doesn't add up. Unfortunately most Christians are happy to accept this character assassination, shrugging when they say, "It's in the Bible." Besides, "Who is the clay to tell the potter what he can do?" Thus painting God as a cosmic tyrant with a complete lack of self-control. And then we turn around and recite the fruit of the Spirit. "Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." None of which describe the caricature of God we have been given. Isn't the Spirit from whom the fruit comes a part of God? (yes) Then comes the explanation of a Janus-faced god of love and justice. As if this somehow balances everything out. We want God to love us but give our enemies hell. And we conveniently forget that mercy is an optional verdict when justice is delivered. And that God's love and mercy are unfailing.

That's why I refer to the God at the beginning of the Bible as not being God but our perception of God. Logically speaking why would God have to save you from himself, or save you from what he will do to you if you don't let him save you.

He told two of his disciples that wanted to call fire down that they didn't know what spirit they were of, which had more to do with their perception of God rather than something with the characterization of wind.

For me the end of the book of Revelation is a launching point to live in and walk out the love of the truth in the here and now ...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'm not surprised that you disagree.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.

a text without the context is a pretext for a proof text.....................

 

[HatGuy]

Recently I read a book titled All you want to know about Hell, it explained 3 famous historic perspectives on the nature, duration and purpose of hellfire.

The three viewpoints were that the fires of hell torment (traditional hell,) the fires consume (annihilationism,) and lastly that the fires refine (universalism.)

Long story short (although the author argued well in favour of each and every perspective) I ended up changing my mind on the topic of hell.

Growing up in a non Christian household I’ve made spiritual changes before, but those changes were always in the general direction of a widely agreed upon Christian orthodoxy.

Changing my mind in the past and accepting the deity of Christ, salvation by grace or the inerrancy of the Bible were big decisions to me personally, but in the grand scheme of things those choices are still rubber stamped by billions of people worldwide (unlike holding to what feels like a novel perspective on hell.)

So, like the short story above, my question is have you ever changed your mind on the subject of faith, morals and worldview to go in an unexpected new direction?

A lot. Sometimes in unorthdox directions, which can be worrying and also liberating. But as long as we don't get dogmatic about our new view, I think we do okay

 

[Saint Steven]

Logically speaking why would God have to save you from himself, or save you from what he will do to you if you don't let him save you.

Exactly.
But for the most part, Christians won't even entertain such questions, thinking them irreverent or blasphemous, I suppose. And I understand why they might feel that way. But when the thought presented itself to me, I at least wanted to consider if there was some validity to it. And indeed, I discovered that there was. There were a collection of scriptures that really intrigued me. Why did the Bible say that? There was something going on here under the surface. For example:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,