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LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

BigDaddy4

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No churches are NOT more open with their finances.
You seriously need to stop this "lying for the lord" and "defend the prophet at all costs" kick you've been on lately. You may be fooling yourself, but you're not fooling any of us.
How much does your church pay their clergy?
I do know, but it's none of your business.
Do you know where your tithing money goes?
Yes I do. I get an annual report of all tithes and offerings and where the money is spent. If I have questions on either, I can talk to the Elder in charge of finances (who just happens to be a personal friend as well). When I served as an Elder at a different church, it was the same. I knew down to the penny what our pastors made.
 
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He is the way

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I can't tell you how much went to pay janitorial staff, either, but these sorts of things were never the question. You made an assertion about LDS giving, and it was shown to be false.

And as Hrairoo has already shown in this thread, there are plenty of paid leaders in the LDS religion. You just don't call them clergy, nor their salary a salary.

And just by the way, I think it's a good thing that clergy are paid, in most cases. All this worry and unnecessary angst about 'priest craft' is just another thing that JS and Co. made up to try to bolster their phony baloney claims to authority.

Are some Christian clergy paid too much? Without a doubt. But most are not making very much at all. For instance, the average Catholic priest's salary (chosen because the RCC is the largest, richest Church in Christianity, and they're probably the one that most westerners think of when they think of a church with a clearly defined clergy) in the USA appears to be around $31,000 a year, which is well below the average salary in every U.S. state (note: I couldn't find a reported national average for this year, only widely varying estimates depending on who was doing the counting and what they included as part of their estimate).



What? Where did I claim that 100% of tithing done in Christian churches goes to the poor? I never claimed that, and that was never what we were arguing about in the first place.

Geez Louise...so things don't go your way after you claim things about LDS tithing vs. Christian tithing, and your response is to try to trap me by claiming that I've said something I didn't say, and then tailoring your argument to that?

Why do you have to be so dishonest? Doesn't your religion teach you not to lie?
Why didn't you use the total tithes in both cases. the 2.2 billion was NOT the total tithing paid to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints from 1986, yet you used the total tithes paid into Christian churches. We pay in 6 billion a year. Apples to apples:

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by members. We pay in about 6 billion a year.
6 billion divided by 6,721,032 = $892
44 billion divided by 213,000,000 = $207
 
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BigDaddy4

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Are some Christian clergy paid too much? Without a doubt. But most are not making very much at all. For instance, the average Catholic priest's salary (chosen because the RCC is the largest, richest Church in Christianity, and they're probably the one that most westerners think of when they think of a church with a clearly defined clergy) in the USA appears to be around $31,000 a year, which is well below the average salary in every U.S. state (note: I couldn't find a reported national average for this year, only widely varying estimates depending on who was doing the counting and what they included as part of their estimate).
I suspect that the $31k does not include their housing allowance, which could be equal to or greater than their salary. From my experience as an Elder, salary and housing allowance were tracked separately. But that was in a different denomination than Catholicism.
 
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He is the way

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You seriously need to stop this "lying for the lord" and "defend the prophet at all costs" kick you've been on lately. You may be fooling yourself, but you're not fooling any of us.

I do know, but it's none of your business.

Yes I do. I get an annual report of all tithes and offerings and where the money is spent. If I have questions on either, I can talk to the Elder in charge of finances (who just happens to be a personal friend as well). When I served as an Elder at a different church, it was the same. I knew down to the penny what our pastors made.
Well I can get an annual report of where all of my tithing is spent also. Nothing there shows how your church is more open.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Well I can get an annual report of where all of my tithing is spent also. Nothing there shows how your church is more open.
As a non-profit organization, my church will supply the annual report to anyone who asks for it - member or not. Can yours say the same?
 
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BigDaddy4

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The LDS church will buy shopping malls and other ventures as a means to help keep people employed (as it seemed to be suggested by He Is The Way's non-answer in post #384), but won't pay their local ward or stake leaders and administrators, child care providers, or janitorial staff. You know, jobs that would actually help the local members? That's some backwards thinking, imo.
 
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He is the way

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As a non-profit organization, my church will supply the annual report to anyone who asks for it - member or not. Can yours say the same?
The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints gives a financial report twice year. I wonder which is more detailed.
 
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mmksparbud

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Why don't you post how much of your tithes go to pay clergy? I know how much of out tithes go to pay clergy 0%. What percent of your tithes go to the poor? Can you find out where your tithing money goes? I can find out where my tithing money goes.

Because these threads are about LDS, Not SDA---trouble enough trying to find others, do not need to waste time on my own. We do get sent reports, yearly, on where the church money goes. I don't keep them on file. Now--p-if y0u are through sidetracking---you should be ab le to find out where your money goes.
 
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mmksparbud

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If we are talking about total tithes, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by members. We pay in about 6 billion a year.
6 billion divided by 6,721,032 = $892
44 billion divided by 213,000,000 = $207

That is total tithes.


Yah, but the question is----where does the 6 billion go?
 
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Leaf473

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What makes a stronger case for me, is on the church's official website, the apologetics I found was that "translated" doesn't mean writing something from one language into another. No, all this time, when Joseph Smith said he translated something, he meant that he got revelation from God. You tell me if that sounds disingenuous or not.
yes, that sounds very disingenuous to me.

and thanks for all the info about Joseph's "translation" process.
 
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dzheremi

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Why didn't you use the total tithes in both cases.

Because I can't invent data that I do not have? I don't have an LDS-specific total for tithes paid in the USA, probably because the LDS themselves are not forthcoming about their finances.

the 2.2 billion was NOT the total tithing paid to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints from 1986

It was given as the total given by LDS Charities since 1985, as reported by LDS Charities itself/themselves in the linked article from Deseret News. I am not making any other claim than this, since that's as far as the source can lead us.

yet you used the total tithes paid into Christian churches.

No I didn't, as I noted several posts ago. From post #401 (bolding by me):

Assuming wikipedia is correct, there are 6,721,032 LDS in the United States. Assuming that they are responsible for 100% of the $63 million the LDS are calculated to have given per year since 1985 (which is not realistic, but sure does simplify the math, so let's go with it; we'll do the same with Christians later, to make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, but everyone reading this should keep in mind that the same caveat applies to the Christian data, as the survey from which that total was taken wasn't a survey of every congregation or parish of every particular Church in the country; it was meant instead as a representative sample)​

Just like I would assume, therefore, that many were missed in the Christian polling (since the quoted stat of $50 billion was for "about ten million tithers", which is approximately 4.6% of the total number of Christians in the USA) -- perhaps due to not fitting nicely into the American religious landscape (I note that other stats from the same page reference Protestants specifically, so I'm assuming it's Protestant/Catholic-biased, and hence leaves out many who might describe themselves as neither) -- I would assume that perhaps many Mormons would be left out of the Deseret News article. But again, we can only go with the data that we actually have.

We pay in 6 billion a year.

In the USA only? What's your source on this?

Because alright, let's look at it that way.

If $63 million is an accurate enough yearly figure (again, drawn from the Deseret News article's reporting of LDS Charities' own self-reported total of $2.2 billion given since 1985), then we'd have 0.0105, or about 1%, of the total yearly tithes going to charity. (In the post in the other thread, I was going based off another article from NBC News that said that the LDS earn $7 billion, not 6, but we'll go with your figure for this calculation, since it makes the total given a little bit better -- 0.0105 vs. 0.009.)

Apples to apples:

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by members. We pay in about 6 billion a year.
6 billion divided by 6,721,032 = $892
44 billion divided by 213,000,000 = $207

Again, you haven't shown it to be "apples to apples" unless we know that the six billion is from the US Mormon population only. What little I've been able to find suggests that this is not the case:

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - If the Mormon church were a business, wealthy adherents like Mitt Romney would count as its dominant revenue stream.

Its investment strategy would be viewed as risk-averse.

It would also likely attract corporate gadflies protesting a lack of transparency. They would call for less spending on real estate and more on charitable causes to improve membership growth - the Mormons’ return on investment.

Those are a few of the conclusions that can be drawn from an analysis of the church’s finances by Reuters and University of Tampa sociologist Ryan Cragun.

Relying heavily on church records in countries that require far more disclosure than the United States, Cragun and Reuters estimate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations.​

---

I've bolded the part that specifically points out that this total estimate is based on extrapolations from what can be found outside of the USA, which at least heavily implies that it is a worldwide total, though it does not specifically break down the $7 billion figure into USA vs. non-USA tithing, so we can't be sure from this source alone how that works out.

If you have something more detailed than this, I think we'd all like to see it. After all, you've been trying to make the case today in your conversation with BigDaddy4 that the LDS religion is actually transparent with its finances. What better way to prove it than to show us all the real numbers, if you have them, and a breakdown of them in such a way as proves your assertions to me.
 
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Hrairoo

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Anyone who listens to the general conference broadcast.
So I have to listen to it? I can't get a written report?

That is the statistical report. It doesn't publicize the church's earnings, nor does it talk about costs or payments for things. It lists off church membership numbers, new churches and new temples, active missionary numbers. It's not a financial report.
 
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Leaf473

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It is a meeting you have with the Bishop at the end of every year. The clerk prints out a record of all of your contributions with dates and amounts and asks you to confirm if this is a full tithe.

From the church's website, the article "Why Tithing Settlement?"
A print out, you say?
I think that's interesting, then, that an individual LDS is not simply trusted to tell the truth about their income and giving.

***********
on a somewhat related note, I grew up in churches that were big on tithing 10%.
as an adult, I came to realize that it's not really a new testament teaching.
(many of my Christian brothers and sisters will disagree with that, and that would be an interesting subject for another thread.)

as I see it now, we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and so belong completely to God, including all of our money.
so it's a matter of asking God,
"how much of this money, which all belongs to you already, do you want me to contribute to the maintenance of the building where I go for Christian fellowship?"
 
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