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LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

Leaf473

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It would be possible for a person to give to the church anonymously.
how would anonymous tithing be done?

if they are paying tithes online, that would probably be done with a credit card so it couldn't be anonymous.
if the church's website will accept Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, that would have the potential for anonymous giving.
is that kind of system in place?

can an LDS simply put cash into the donation box outside of the Bishop's office when no one is around?
 
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Hrairoo

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You should have also stated that tithing settlement is voluntary. People sign up for it if they want to go.
Okay... The fact of the matter is if you're a full tithe payer, you're going to want to check the church's records against your own, to make sure they have all of your funds accounted for. So, of course you'll sign up for the tithing settlement at end of year. The only reason you wouldn't is if you're not paying tithing, in which case, I don't see how you could get a temple recommend. If you were a clerk at some point for the Bishopric or the Stake, then you should know how this works. It's not like the clerk and Bishop never interact. They're both there when the donations are put into the church's accounts.
 
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He is the way

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thank you for the answers.

so a person can declare their own worthiness in a temple recommend interview, but the bishop may not believe them.

the temple recommend is not based on the person's own declaration, then, but on the Bishop's examination.

so, and again I mean this gently, it doesn't sound to me like
let a man/woman examine himself/herself
like 1 Corinthians 11 talks about.
Actually it is not the bishop that a person should worry about but it is God. It reminds me of the story in
(New Testament | Acts 5:1-12) of Ananias and his wife Sapphira. In this case Peter was the examiner.
 
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He is the way

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how would anonymous tithing be done?

if they are paying tithes online, that would probably be done with a credit card so it couldn't be anonymous.
if the church's website will accept Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, that would have the potential for anonymous giving.
is that kind of system in place?

can an LDS simply put cash into the donation box outside of the Bishop's office when no one is around?
A person could put money in an envelope and mail it to the bishop. I have not been a bishop so I could not tell you how this money is processed. I do know that not all of the donations are from members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.
 
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He is the way

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Okay... The fact of the matter is if you're a full tithe payer, you're going to want to check the church's records against your own, to make sure they have all of your funds accounted for. So, of course you'll sign up for the tithing settlement at end of year. The only reason you wouldn't is if you're not paying tithing, in which case, I don't see how you could get a temple recommend. If you were a clerk at some point for the Bishopric or the Stake, then you should know how this works. It's not like the clerk and Bishop never interact. They're both there when the donations are put into the church's accounts.
A person does not have to pay a full tithe to go to tithing settlement. They can declare that it is not a full tithe. Members do not need to have a temple recommend to be members. I know one person that attended church with his wife for many years before becoming a member. I paid tithing for many years before I got a temple recommend.
 
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Ironhold

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I was a finance clerk for a year or so.

A person could put money in an envelope and mail it to the bishop. I have not been a bishop so I could not tell you how this money is processed. I do know that not all of the donations are from members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

Here in the United States, the church requires both online *and* physical records to be kept.

How it works is that a member of the bishopric and a second authorized person - usually the finance clerk - open each envelope individually. They note in the computer system who gave the donation, what they're donating to, and then manually inspect the enclosed amount to ensure that it matches up. For example, if a person said they put $50 in cash, there's a count to ensure that there's actually $50 in cash.

This is done for every single envelope received that day.

Once the total count is done, a final manual count is done to ensure that the amount of cash received matches what the system says it should be, and that all of the checks / money orders / et cetra sync up as well.

Once this is all done and everything is entered into the computer with appropriate digital signatures, a digital notice is sent back to Salt Lake. The computer then spits out an assortment of documents, some of which need physical signatures. Specific documents, the white tithing slips, and certain other documentation are then placed in an envelope and placed inside a designated filing cabinet. These documents are audited every six months, and IIRC anything & everything may be audited as far out as two years from date.

On the physical end, the money and payments are placed in a bank deposit envelope along with copies of certain record documents, both ones printed by the system and created by an NCR paper ledger. The two people who prepared everything must then take the sealed envelope to the designated drop point, which 9 times out of 10 will be the night drop box at a specific local bank that the church has set up an account with. For purposes of operational security, I won't explain the rare instance on open comms.

how would anonymous tithing be done?

if they are paying tithes online, that would probably be done with a credit card so it couldn't be anonymous.
if the church's website will accept Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency, that would have the potential for anonymous giving.
is that kind of system in place?

can an LDS simply put cash into the donation box outside of the Bishop's office when no one is around?

There isn't a cash donation box. There's supposed to be a record kept of everything.

Story time -> When I was the finance clerk, news broke that the State of California Democratic Party had been robbed blind by their top finance official. The party's internal financial security standards were so weak that she was able to pilfer millions of dollars from them, and the only reason they caught it was because checks started bouncing. The audit standards I had to abide by as a branch finance clerk were stricter than an entire state-level political party was operating under.

A person does not have to pay a full tithe to go to tithing settlement. They can declare that it is not a full tithe. Members do not need to have a temple recommend to be members. I know one person that attended church with his wife for many years before becoming a member. I paid tithing for many years before I got a temple recommend.

If a person has specific circumstances, circumstances to which I was not personally privy, then they can be designated as "exempt". I wouldn't know who was or wasn't until at the end of each year when I was tasked with officially registering in the system who declared themselves to be a full or partial tithe-payer.
 
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Hrairoo

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I never said any of what you're refuting.

A person does not have to pay a full tithe to go to tithing settlement. They can declare that it is not a full tithe.

Oh good. Because what I said was if you're paying a full tithe, you would want to go for a tithing settlement.

I also didn't say anyone who wasn't paying a full tithe wouldn't want to go to the tithe settlement meeting. I said the only reason you wouldn't go to tithing settlement is if you weren't paying tithing AT ALL. You know, because there would be no donations or records to settle if you'd never paid any.

As far as making a case for tithing settlement being "voluntary" you're not giving any feasible reason why someone wouldn't sign up for it if they paid any tithing at all.

Members do not need to have a temple recommend to be members. I know one person that attended church with his wife for many years before becoming a member. I paid tithing for many years before I got a temple recommend.

Oh great. Because I never said anything about a temple recommend being necessary for membership. The implication is right in church doctrine: if you do not have a valid temple recommend(meaning, if you have not kept yourself in line with the requirements at least), then you cannot have eternal life/exaltation. That is, you cannot enter into the highest kingdom. From what I recall, shooting for a lower kingdom and doing the bare minimum is frowned upon. The members are encouraged to get their endowments done and they are encouraged to remain worthy enough to enter into God's house.

If you build any more strawmen, misrepresenting my position again, I will refrain from pointing them out to you but the conversation between us will end there, as well.
 
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dzheremi

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This Mormon system of tithing seems set up for abuse. They won't let you in their super-special VIP temples unless you settle your account with them. What are they -- God's mafia? And this happens on a regular basis, such that you have to go through it yearly? How is that not just spiritualized extortion? "Gee, that's a pretty nice eternal family you've got there; it'd be a shame if something were to happen to it..."

This is not like any church I've ever been in. Most emphasize accepting donations from cheerful givers, not in exchange for anything but helping to foster the sense of community that ideally should be found in their congregation/parish, so that we're all working towards the same goal (this is why where the money is going will be explicitly printed in the parish or diocese bulletins in many churches). Like when I gave a very small amount for the building of the Church of St. Bishoy in Albuquerque, I got to see them physically building it, so I knew it wasn't going to anything weird, because I could see how it went into building the iconstasis, installing the altar curtain, etc. (standard parts of Coptic Orthodox churches). Or when I gave a reasonable amount to the Monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite in NY, it was because I believe in what they are doing, and also because I had budgeted enough money for a hotel during my stay (since I had no idea how it would be once I got there; what if there wasn't room for me, etc.), so I gave that money over willingly and with gratitude that they housed me and fed me for my time there. There was never any sense in any of these situations of "You have to pay up because if you don't you'll get fewer blessings" (something I haven't read in this thread, but have seen talked about by many ex-Mormons), and there certainly wasn't this idea that the amount or frequency of your giving to your church community in any way affects your ability to gain eternal life, since it's Christ Who offers that to us, not any bishop! That's just crazy talk.
 
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Hrairoo

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From my experience, @dzheremi , the church puts a lot of stock into the authority of the church having the proper keys and power of the true priesthood given by God. So, obedience to the leaders and the humility to be led is extremely important. I was always taught that even if a leader was preaching something against God's will, if you followed him obediently, you would not be punished, because God wants you to obey and trust his leadership no matter what.

Secondly, there is a lot of weight put upon works being necessary and constant repentance for any sinful thought or deed in order to be worthy. So, there is a lot of guilt pressuring LDS to obey. You can see it as extortion for being with families in heaven forever but as an LDS, you wouldn't realize that was happening, even as you constantly feel this pressure to do better, to be better, to meet the standards. After all, you made these covenants with God, so, these are eternal promises you're potentially breaking.
 
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mmksparbud

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It's all pretty much the same for us. We keep strict records so the individual has them for their tax returns. It just depends on us to give the 10%, nobody knows if what you give is exactly 10%, offerings are whatever you can do, those are kept record of also for tax purposes. I think that pretty much how any church that collects tithes and offerings do it. It is all far less than the Israelites used to do. They gave everything that the Egyptians had given them in order to get the sanctuary built. We gave extra for when we need a new church build also and the General Conference adds in from their building fund. All offering envelopes have places to check for how much to go to what you want. All our pastors are paid the same, no matter how big, or small, their congregation is, by the General Conference. That is what tithe is used for, to pay the pastors to be full time pastors. It is what the apostles ended up doing---so that no disciple had to wait on tables, but be full times preachers of the word. The wives usually have to work to help out. But I thought bishops were not paid by the LDS, so what is tithe used for?
 
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Hrairoo

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But I thought bishops were not paid by the LDS, so what is tithe used for?

Good question. All General Authorities(That is the Prophet, his first and second Counselors, the twelve apostles, the Presidents of the seventy, the Seventy themselves, and the Mission President) get paid a salary. Anyone lower is a volunteer and thus not paid. But that is a lot of people to pay.

620-May2019GAChart[1].jpg


I know that the tuitions for Brigham Young University(Utah, Idaho, and Hawaii) are subsidised by tithing from church members.

It goes to church building maintenance, funds for activities in your local ward, building temples. You can pay into fast offerings in addition to tithing(fast offering does not count as tithng) which is where you plan to fast and put the money you would have spent on your meal(s) into that offering. The church uses that to feed those who apply for meal assistance from the ward.

But in all honesty, the church doesn't publicize where the tithing money goes. Individual members may find out where their money goes but you have to request that information, it is not offered. I didn't know that I could ask while I was a member, so, it might be one of those things where most members are unaware that they can ask.
 
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He is the way

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I never said any of what you're refuting.



Oh good. Because what I said was if you're paying a full tithe, you would want to go for a tithing settlement.

I also didn't say anyone who wasn't paying a full tithe wouldn't want to go to the tithe settlement meeting. I said the only reason you wouldn't go to tithing settlement is if you weren't paying tithing AT ALL. You know, because there would be no donations or records to settle if you'd never paid any.

As far as making a case for tithing settlement being "voluntary" you're not giving any feasible reason why someone wouldn't sign up for it if they paid any tithing at all.



Oh great. Because I never said anything about a temple recommend being necessary for membership. The implication is right in church doctrine: if you do not have a valid temple recommend(meaning, if you have not kept yourself in line with the requirements at least), then you cannot have eternal life/exaltation. That is, you cannot enter into the highest kingdom. From what I recall, shooting for a lower kingdom and doing the bare minimum is frowned upon. The members are encouraged to get their endowments done and they are encouraged to remain worthy enough to enter into God's house.

If you build any more strawmen, misrepresenting my position again, I will refrain from pointing them out to you but the conversation between us will end there, as well.
I was not disagreeing with you, I was only trying to point out things that that you had not mentioned so people would not get the wrong impressions about tithing settlement.
 
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Hrairoo

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I was not disagreeing with you, I was only trying to point out things that that you had not mentioned so people would not get the wrong impressions about tithing settlement.
Ah, I understand.
 
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He is the way

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Good question. All General Authorities(That is the Prophet, his first and second Counselors, the twelve apostles, the Presidents of the seventy, the Seventy themselves, and the Mission President) get paid a salary. Anyone lower is a volunteer and thus not paid. But that is a lot of people to pay.

620-May2019GAChart[1].jpg


I know that the tuitions for Brigham Young University(Utah, Idaho, and Hawaii) are subsidised by tithing from church members.

It goes to church building maintenance, funds for activities in your local ward, building temples. You can pay into fast offerings in addition to tithing(fast offering does not count as tithng) which is where you plan to fast and put the money you would have spent on your meal(s) into that offering. The church uses that to feed those who apply for meal assistance from the ward.

But in all honesty, the church doesn't publicize where the tithing money goes. Individual members may find out where their money goes but you have to request that information, it is not offered. I didn't know that I could ask while I was a member, so, it might be one of those things where most members are unaware that they can ask.
Again not disagreeing, but the General Authorities are not paid by tithing money. They get their living allowance from proceeds of the church's financial investments.
 
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Hrairoo

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Again not disagreeing, but the General Authorities are not paid by tithing money. They get their living allowance from proceeds of the church's financial investments.
Ah yes. Like the City Creek mall that the church bought. "Let's go shopping!"
 
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He is the way

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BigDaddy4

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Again not disagreeing, but the General Authorities are not paid by tithing money. They get their living allowance from proceeds of the church's financial investments.
And where did your church get the money to make these "financial investments"? Is this financial information available to your members?
 
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Ironhold

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Ah yes. Like the City Creek mall that the church bought. "Let's go shopping!"

City Creek was one corner of a large block of downtown SLC that the church purchased in a bid to stop urban blight.

Other parts of the plan included such things as "knocking down select buildings in order to make room for green space" and "adding parking garages because there just isn't enough parking downtown anymore".

In other words, the whole project was meant to make life in the city better for everyone who lived there.
 
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He is the way

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And where did your church get the money to make these "financial investments"? Is this financial information available to your members?
Members can find out where their tithing money is spent. We do not have access to all of the financial records of the church.
 
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