King of the North, Prince of the Covenant?

[Jamdoc]

thanks, sometimes it's just hard to sort through all these prophetic characters that mostly use symbols

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[mkgal1]

Then Jesus wasn't even answering their questions about the signs of his coming.
They asked Him what to look for for His RETURN
not just random events that happen in the near future.

Not in my Bible, they didn't (I doubt that's what your Bible says as well).

IOW...."coming" =/= "return"

"Luke 21 BSB" Luke 21 BSB

 

[Jamdoc]

Not in my Bible, they didn't (I doubt that's what your Bible says as well).

IOW...."coming" =/= "return"

"Luke 21 BSB" Luke 21 BSB

Okay coming, still the same chronological problem happens. Did the Jesus come to earth and gather His elect after 70AD?
cause I've never heard of a 70AD rapture.
what Jesus taught was that the abomination of desolation would occur, as described by Daniel, and from daily sacrifices STARTING until the temple is cleansed is 2300 days. From the daily sacrifices STOPPING and the abomination of Desolation being set up is 1290 days, until what is not explicitly stated, but Jesus says that after the AoD is great tribulations, then His coming in the clouds immediately after. Was there a coming in the clouds within 1290 days of the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of Herod's temple?
Cause that's the only way your position would make sense.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ViaCrucis]

Isn't 9:27 referring to the abomination of desolation though?

The explicit and direct meaning of what is being said here refers to the desecration of the Temple that occurred under Seleucid rule--namely a sacrifice to Zeus made in the Holy of Holies. This abominable act of desecration was, in essence the spark that ignited the Maccabean Revolt, which led to the overthrow of Greek rule and the establishment of an independent Jewish nation. The Jewish celebration of Hanukkah is the celebration of the miracle of lights and the re-dedication of the Temple. This is the feast Jesus is celebrating in John 10:22.

Jesus speaks of this same event from Daniel in order to point to what will happen to Jerusalem, which occurred during the First Jewish-Roman War. A group of Jewish Zealots forcefully took the city and the Temple, even murdering the priests so that the Temple ran red with blood. The contemporary historian, Flavius Josephus, speaks of these things. The Zealots apparently even took the sacred objects of the Temple and smelted them down. And then under Titus, the city was besieged, and the Romans then slaughtered many throughout the city.

It was a horrific event. And Jesus absolutely predicts what would happen, and that is why He gives warnings and signs to look out for. He tells His followers to pay attention, and then to flee from Jerusalem, because what happened was an absolute slaughter and blood bath. The Temple was desecrated, then destroyed. That's why Jesus points to Daniel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

The explicit and direct meaning of what is being said here refers to the desecration of the Temple that occurred under Seleucid rule--namely a sacrifice to Zeus made in the Holy of Holies. This abominable act of desecration was, in essence the spark that ignited the Maccabean Revolt, which led to the overthrow of Greek rule and the establishment of an independent Jewish nation. The Jewish celebration of Hanukkah is the celebration of the miracle of lights and the re-dedication of the Temple. This is the feast Jesus is celebrating in John 10:22.

Jesus speaks of this same event from Daniel in order to point to what will happen to Jerusalem, which occurred during the First Jewish-Roman War. A group of Jewish Zealots forcefully took the city and the Temple, even murdering the priests so that the Temple ran red with blood. The contemporary historian, Flavius Josephus, speaks of these things. The Zealots apparently even took the sacred objects of the Temple and smelted them down. And then under Titus, the city was besieged, and the Romans then slaughtered many throughout the city.

It was a horrific event. And Jesus absolutely predicts what would happen, and that is why He gives warnings and signs to look out for. He tells His followers to pay attention, and then to flee from Jerusalem, because what happened was an absolute slaughter and blood bath. The Temple was desecrated, then destroyed. That's why Jesus points to Daniel.

-CryptoLutheran

But He's also giving it as a sign that happens just before His return. This is why I can't take preterists or partial preterists seriously because it makes Jesus look like He's not answering the question but ducking around it and telling them about something not connected to His return by almost 2000 years.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ViaCrucis]

But He's also giving it as a sign that happens just before His return. This is why I can't take preterists or partial preterists seriously because it makes Jesus look like He's not answering the question but ducking around it and telling them about something not connected to His return by almost 2000 years.

He isn't talking about His return yet at that point in the Olivet Discourse. The Lord begins talking about His future Parousia when He tells us that of that day and hour no one knows except the Father.

There are no signs to look out for concerning when He will return, because the whole point Jesus is making is we can't know when He will return. If there were signs showing when He is coming, then we could therefore know when He returns. But we can't. We instead have to be like the wise virgins who bring enough oil to wait out the night, we have to be like a faithful servant and wisely invest our talent, we have to be faithful to Christ caring for the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the poor, the naked, and the stranger.

The signs Jesus mentions point to the destruction of the Temple.

The disciples ask, what to look out for to know when the Temple will be destroyed, when the Lord's coming will be, and the end of the age. Jesus clearly separates the destruction of the Temple from the conclusion of history and His return as judge of quick and the dead. He gives things to look for concerning the destruction of the Temple, but concerning His return and the end of the age He is very clear that we--nobody--knows. So we have to be vigilant and faithful at all times since we don't know when it will happen.

Jesus isn't ducking around anything, He is answering their question. Jesus wasn't talking about His return or the end of the age, He says the day will come when the stones of the Temple will no longer be standing, this is what prompts the disciples to ask their question. The way they ask their question brings all these things together, but Jesus unpacks the question and answers:

He first tells them not to panic when they see wars, rumors of wars, conflicts, disasters, these are simply birth-pangs, the sorrows of a fallen world crying out.

Then He tells them what will happen to them, they would face harassment and persecution.

He warns against false messianic claimants and false predictions.

He points out what signs there are concerning the destruction of the Temple.

And then He discusses His return, by saying no one knows the day or hour, that it will be as in the days of Noah where people were going about their lives as normal when suddenly, without warning, the flood came. In the same way, Jesus says, two will be in a field one is taken and one is left, etc. So the coming of the Son of Man will be, when He comes in judgment it will happen without warning. Therefore we are to be as the wise virgins, to be as the faithful servant. We are to be faithful to Christ our Lord, to be about our Lord's work and business as His Church until the day He comes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Jamdoc]

He isn't talking about His return yet at that point in the Olivet Discourse. The Lord begins talking about His future Parousia when He tells us that of that day and hour no one knows except the Father.

There are no signs to look out for concerning when He will return, because the whole point Jesus is making is we can't know when He will return. If there were signs showing when He is coming, then we could therefore know when He returns. But we can't. We instead have to be like the wise virgins who bring enough oil to wait out the night, we have to be like a faithful servant and wisely invest our talent, we have to be faithful to Christ caring for the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the poor, the naked, and the stranger.

The signs Jesus mentions point to the destruction of the Temple.

The disciples ask, what to look out for to know when the Temple will be destroyed, when the Lord's coming will be, and the end of the age. Jesus clearly separates the destruction of the Temple from the conclusion of history and His return as judge of quick and the dead. He gives things to look for concerning the destruction of the Temple, but concerning His return and the end of the age He is very clear that we--nobody--knows. So we have to be vigilant and faithful at all times since we don't know when it will happen.

Jesus isn't ducking around anything, He is answering their question. Jesus wasn't talking about His return or the end of the age, He says the day will come when the stones of the Temple will no longer be standing, this is what prompts the disciples to ask their question. The way they ask their question brings all these things together, but Jesus unpacks the question and answers:

He first tells them not to panic when they see wars, rumors of wars, conflicts, disasters, these are simply birth-pangs, the sorrows of a fallen world crying out.

Then He tells them what will happen to them, they would face harassment and persecution.

He warns against false messianic claimants and false predictions.

He points out what signs there are concerning the destruction of the Temple.

And then He discusses His return, by saying no one knows the day or hour, that it will be as in the days of Noah where people were going about their lives as normal when suddenly, without warning, the flood came. In the same way, Jesus says, two will be in a field one is taken and one is left, etc. So the coming of the Son of Man will be, when He comes in judgment it will happen without warning. Therefore we are to be as the wise virgins, to be as the faithful servant. We are to be faithful to Christ our Lord, to be about our Lord's work and business as His Church until the day He comes.

-CryptoLutheran

This is so untrue, Matthew 24:29 explicitly says just after the tribulations of those days He gives the cosmological signs from Joel 2 and describes coming in the clouds.
He outright gave signs to watch for, we won't know the day or hour, but we will know the season, figuratively speaking.

 

[mkgal1]

Okay coming, still the same chronological problem happens. Did the Jesus come to earth and gather His elect after 70AD?

Scripture doesn't say "come to earth". That's not the biblical meaning of "coming".

Quoting Hank Hanegraaff:

When I say that Jesus is coming again, remember that every time you hear the word “coming” in Scripture you don’t have to assume that that has to do specifically with the Second Coming of Christ. Sometimes it does because Hebrews says that Jesus is coming a second time. However, it doesn’t always have to do with the Second Coming because “coming” is used as a judgment metaphor in Scripture as well. So when Jesus said to Caiaphas in the court that’s condemning him to death “But I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven,” a biblically illiterate person might have missed the import of his words, but Caiaphas and the council did not. If ever there was a razor-sharp metaphor, this was it, and it cut Caiaphas and the court condemning Christ to the quick. They understood that in saying He was the Son of Man that would come on the clouds of heaven, Jesus was making an overt reference to his coronation as the Son of Man in Daniel’s vision. You’ll remember that vision in Daniel 7. ~ https://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_o...H-aai5mmmnqWvjqNC8EQ0LdwASCI2-HW5DATlYuFg_2LE​

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Jamdoc]

Scripture doesn't say "come to earth". That's not the biblical meaning of "coming".

Quoting Hank Hanegraaff:

When I say that Jesus is coming again, remember that every time you hear the word “coming” in Scripture you don’t have to assume that that has to do specifically with the Second Coming of Christ. Sometimes it does because Hebrews says that Jesus is coming a second time. However, it doesn’t always have to do with the Second Coming because “coming” is used as a judgment metaphor in Scripture as well. So when Jesus said to Caiaphas in the court that’s condemning him to death “But I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven,” a biblically illiterate person might have missed the import of his words, but Caiaphas and the council did not. If ever there was a razor-sharp metaphor, this was it, and it cut Caiaphas and the court condemning Christ to the quick. They understood that in saying He was the Son of Man that would come on the clouds of heaven, Jesus was making an overt reference to his coronation as the Son of Man in Daniel’s vision. You’ll remember that vision in Daniel 7. ~ https://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_o...H-aai5mmmnqWvjqNC8EQ0LdwASCI2-HW5DATlYuFg_2LE​

You can play semantics all you want. 70AD didn't have Jesus coming in the clouds and gathering His elect.

 

[mkgal1]

You can play semantics all you want. 70AD didn't have Jesus coming in the clouds and gathering His elect.

This isn't a literal sighting of Jesus soaring through the clouds. It's apocalyptic
language in reference to Daniel 7