So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

[BobRyan]

If you remember, Satan quoted scripture to Christ only he twisted it with just a word or two. But sadly he knows scripture better than most Christians which is why this is one of the main reasons we need it as Paul taught. We have to be able to fight the "fiery darts of Satan" he will be so good, the entire world will wonder after him and the angels he brings along with him. That's the true deception that will envelop the entire world. People expecting are some monster but as Daniel teaches, he destroys "wonderfully". That's why when the true Christ comes back people will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

That's also why in Matthew 24 Christ says during that time, if someone says here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not. And why he says he comes at an hour most do not expect. What's an hour most do not expect? When you think he's already here. Paul teaches people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, God's wrath. That's how it's going to be. And that's why even if it doesn't happen in our lifetimes, we should always be on watch.


Christ says it simply -those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. He says in our patience we are to possess our souls. Some will also be delivered up at this time for a testimony. And it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them because the gospel must be preached to the nations and then the end will come.

I don't really like labels but I believe Christ returns at the 7th trump. And I don't believe God's wrath will harm us. He knows who are his and who isn't. And yes, I am pre-mill.

ok so it is pretty hard to argue with that.

 

[BobRyan]

OK, a very important prophecy is Daniel's 70 weeks. That prophecy is ideal in helping someone identify Jesus Christ the Messiah. That is critical to the gospel.

I agree. A person ignoring that prophecy at the time of John the baptizer - would be at "high risk". My whole point is that Bible warnings ignored DO have great consequence if we really understand them. If we don't understand them ... they appear to have no consequence at all because the "detail" is missing from our understanding that would show any consequence.

But in the OP the person of today already accepts Christ and is a born-again Christian.

It might not have helped 95% of those that came to the Lord but if it helped some who were scribes and pharisees, then you can see that it is profitable. That prophecy also helps you understand that there is a gap from the time of the Lord's crucifixion to the the 70th week. That could have comforted Christians for the last 2,000 years.

How would that have helped them... if it is even true at all?

Finally, that prophecy makes it very clear that it is all about Jerusalem.

How does not noticing that - have any effect at all on someone who is already a born-again Christian?

Instead of being incredibly vague with the end time prophecies, why not pick one specific one and see if it would be profitable for believers.

I have opened the door to all the basic scenarios asked if someone can find one that matters for the Christian in my OP scenario.

Your question though is the opposite, does it matter if we ignore it? Does it matter if God ignores you?

That is not a valid comparison. Pick any of the scenarios you don't agree with (Post-mill for example) in the OP for end-times and then make the claim that to ignore that one is the same as God ignoring you. That is not a logical connection in any case.

You are asking if it makes any difference if you ignore what God has spoken, .

My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.

My argument here is that if your chosen scenario is stuck at the "well I guess it would not matter to the OP scenario person's fate/outcome" -- then you have chosen a scenario that is out of step with all of scripture.. might want to re-think it.

 

[parousia70]

NEVER call any of Gods Word an untruth!

I agree... However, the Christians for centuries who claimed the end was near, when it factually was not, hand the skeptics and atheists the free gift of ammunition to disbelieve the claims of Christians about ALL of it.

Shocking that this does not bother you in the least.

But judging from many aspects; Biblical and the current situation, WE are the generation who will.

Said well meaning, learned and wise Christians from every generation prior to ours...who were all 100% wrong.

EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM WAS 100% WRONG.

What makes you so special to think that in spite of that track record of 100% failure rate, that you are totally different in your ability to assess things better than the MILLIONS of Christians who came before you and said the same thing you are saying, and therefore you are right??

Humility > Arrogance

 

[JacksBratt]

They would have to already be doing just that. They would have to already be reacting to new information and responding quickly, alert, paying attention.

A person used to drunk driving is not going to suddenly become an expert driver when road conditions become hazardous.

I agree..

One thing though... The book of Revelation.. is the only book that promises that the reader will be blessed by reading it.

 

[ZNP]

I agree. A person ignoring that prophecy at the time of John the baptizer - would be at "high risk". My whole point is that Bible warnings ignored DO have great consequence if we really understand them. If we don't understand them ... they appear to have no consequence at all because the "detail" is missing from our understanding that would show any consequence.

7 “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty and people seek instruction from his mouth.

How would that have helped them... if it is even true at all?

If you realized at the time of Jesus crucifixion that this was the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would be cut off, then praying over that verse could have caused some to repent and receive Jesus.

How does not noticing that - have any effect at all on someone who is already a born-again Christian? I have opened the door to all the basic scenarios asked if someone can find one that matters for the Christian in my OP scenario.

Luke 12:42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? If you are a servant of the Lord it is required that you know "the proper time". It was the apostles that asked the Lord about the Proper time, He didn't rebuke them, instead He gave us very specific words. "If you see the fig tree put forth its leaves" -- seeing the jews return to Israel was both an end time word and also a word of encouragement that would strengthen the faith of those who heard this. The Lord said that the end of this age would be like the days of Noah. One year Time's man of the year was the Earth because of the extinction of species taking place all over the earth and the attempt to create "an ark" to preserve seeds from every species alive. That also would strengthen your faith.

My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.

My point is you have to be more specific, give me an example of a "does not matter" teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree... However, the Christians for centuries who claimed the end was near, when it factually was not, hand the skeptics and atheists the free gift of ammunition to disbelieve the claims of Christians about ALL of it.

to some extent but the same thing could be said of false Messiahs that showed up before John the baptizer announced the Messiah. Yet he did not view that argument as having sufficient weight to stop his own announcement of the Messiah.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.

My point is you have to be more specific, give me an example of a "does not matter" teaching.

I gave the pre-trib pre-mill rapture example about 3 times.

So for example
Today at 9:47 AM #93

And here is one where I show that the common form of post-trib pre-mill rapture does not matter

Yesterday at 11:47 PM #61

 

[Douggg]

But if the person in the OP pays no attention to Matt 24... in fact carefully avoid it since it speaks of end - times -- and just chooses to be a good born-again Christian who stays out of the weeds, out of the difficult confusing topics... just ignores everything... stays born-again and keeps reading those 4 books of the Bible

Then which scenario puts him "at risk" ?

(Bob wrote) "Then which scenario puts him "at risk" ?"


Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The scenario which Jesus can appear at a time he thinks not. Which apparently, if the hypothetical person is ignoring the end times passages - he thinks not, with that (ignoring) state of mind.


Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[ZNP]

BobRyan said: ↑
My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.



I gave the pre-trib pre-mill rapture example about 3 times.

So for example
Today at 9:47 AM #93

And here is one where I show that the common form of post-trib pre-mill rapture does not matter

Yesterday at 11:47 PM #61

The only "end time prophecy" I was able to discern from those two posts was this:


Matt 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
You appear to dispute the Lord's word saying it wouldn't matter if you knew when the thief was coming.

It seems to me then the real question is what can the householder do to prevent his house from being broken into? I would think that question would make a great thread.

 

[Jamdoc]

I went back and read your OP because I guess I didn't properly understand it.



Your questions are interesting because they are effectively what almost every Christian is actually doing. Even those who study prophecy are doing the same thing to prepare for the return of Jesus - nothing.

Noah's Ark is sitting there. The ramp has come down. The animals are loading.

Do you think you should walk up the ramp, I say?

Oh no. I only need to read my Bible is the response.

Good luck with that, I say.

What happens if one ignores all the end-time stuff?

I said in my earlier response to you:
1. You would basically die an early death due to war, or;
2. You might join Islam due to trickery.

I forgot to mention that if you don't join Islam then you will be killed. The parable of the foolish virgins suggests that 50% of Christians get in trouble. Under my scenario that means they will join Islam. They couldn't recognize a fake Jesus.

For some reason, you don't feel those items represent increased risk.

Well, when it comes to prophetic things such as great tribulations. There really are no physical preparations you can do.
are you going to take up arms to defend yourself?

he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.

Yeah.. not likely.
Stockpile food and provisions to hunker down and hide? Probably not as well, as when this happens, you'll have to flee, you won't have a safe space to hole up. Nowhere that anyone knows about will be safe, you'd have to be so far off the grid, in an age of total surveillance technology.

No.. all you really can do is spiritually prepare to endure and not renounce your faith, don't love your life unto death, and witness to people. But your greatest testimony may be your death for not renouncing Jesus.

 

[ZNP]

Well, when it comes to prophetic things such as great tribulations. There really are no physical preparations you can do.

Prove it. Your entire thesis hinges on this statement being true, yet this statement contradicts the Lord's word that if you knew when the thief were coming you would prevent your house from being broken into.

Your example of Noah is a case in point. He was warned of the coming flood. He built a boat to save his family. He realized that after the flood all the animals would be killed as well, so he made his boat big enough to hold all the animals. He knew the thief was coming and he did something about it to make sure his house wasn't broken into.

 

[Jamdoc]

Good points made there - but the person in the OP already suffers from people who oppose Christianity and can read in the gospels where Christ was opposed - so that person would expect that opposition "exists" and would already admit that he/she has no control over the fact that more opposition would or would not come in the future that they are not reading about.

So as long as the person is a born-again Christian - what future scenario do you propose where "not knowing about it" puts them at some sort of risk??

Because one thing is very clear - no knowing about the flood in Noah's day - then living to see that event happen... put them at great risk.

It depends, if the except that they will be persecuted and understand that Jesus told them they would be, and they don't lose faith, and they are faithful unto death as Jesus described for the church in Smyrna, ultimately they'll be fine. The only real risk here is losing faith and renouncing Jesus. Matthew 10:33

 

[parousia70]

Your example of Noah is a case in point. He was warned of the coming flood. He built a boat to save his family. He realized that after the flood all the animals would be killed as well, so he made his boat big enough to hold all the animals. He knew the thief was coming and he did something about it to make sure his house wasn't broken into.

Noah Knew the Prophesy about the impending Flood was FOR Him.

I know the Prophesy of the impending Flood is NOT for me... should I go build an Ark anyway, Just in case?

 

[Jamdoc]

Prove it. Your entire thesis hinges on this statement being true, yet this statement contradicts the Lord's word that if you knew when the thief were coming you would prevent your house from being broken into.

Your example of Noah is a case in point. He was warned of the coming flood. He built a boat to save his family. He realized that after the flood all the animals would be killed as well, so he made his boat big enough to hold all the animals. He knew the thief was coming and he did something about it to make sure his house wasn't broken into.

Did Jesus tell us to build anything stockpile anything?

No.

What'd He tell us to do? Endure, witness, give testimony (and the words will be given to you at the time (Luke 21:12-15) don't love your life unto death.

Revelation 12:11

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

These are the instructions that Jesus gives in Matthew 24:
1. Don't be deceived by false messiahs (Matthew 24:4-5)
2. Don't flip out, these things must come to pass. (Matthew 24:6)
3. Endure (Matthew 24:13)
4. Give testimony, from the heart, don't practice what you're going to say, let the spirit speak for you (Luke 21:12-15)
5. Preach the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14)
6. When you see the Abomination of Desolation from the book of Daniel, if you're in Judea (modern day nation of Israel) flee into the mountains, don't even go back for provisions or belongings just flee. So any "prepping" you do is in vain in that situation Also pray that it's not in the winter or on the sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20)
7. Again don't be deceived or follow false messiahs (Matthew 24:23-26), Jesus tells you how He's going to return as the real deal (Matthew 24:27-31)
8. Watch for your Lord to return (Matthew 24:42-45)
9. Look up and lift your head up when He does ( Luke 21:28)
10. Watch and Pray unceasingly (Luke 21:36)
11. Don't give in and join the persecutors. This one carries a death sentence from Jesus (Matthew 24:48-51)

So the most important instructions are to watch, pray, don't be deceived, don't join the persecutors, and for the most part... DON'T try to prepare, don't try to prepare what you're going to say if you're arrested, don't try to prepare supplies for going off the grid.

 

[parousia70]

Also pray that it's not in the winter or on the sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20)

What difference would that make today?

 

[ZNP]

Did Jesus tell us to build anything stockpile anything?

No.

We were told that in this age He would build the church. We are building with Him. Paul laid the foundation and each one of us is building on this.

We were told to stockpile oil in our lamps. The foolish virgins are those who do not have enough oil in their lamps when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[fewme]

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

 

[Jamdoc]

What difference would that make today?

Well, fleeing into the mountains in winter would be more difficult, but mostly, I'm just repeating what Jesus said

 

[Jamdoc]

We were told that in this age He would build the church. We are building with Him. Paul laid the foundation and each one of us is building on this.

We were told to stockpile oil in our lamps. The foolish virgins are those who do not have enough oil in their lamps when the Bridegroom comes.

That's a parable, not a literal instruction. The literal instructions He gave, I recounted, and one of them is to not even go back for your clothes or your goods when the time comes to flee, you just go.

Luke 17:31-32

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

In other words, don't look back, just escape.

 

[keras]

I have opened the door to all the basic scenarios asked if someone can find one that matters for the Christian in my OP scenario.

Isaiah 26:20-21 is a direct instruction for us.
When the Lord strikes the earth with His fiery wrath, we must take shelter.
Just for the 24 hours of that literal Day. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17.

wolf! wolf!
ha ha ha, there was no wolf

Woops! The great Day of the Lord comes; burning like a furnace, all the arrogant and evil peoples will be as stubble, burned to ashes. Malachi 4:1-3

www.spaceweather.com, September 2; information on the extreme likelihood of a Coronal Mass Ejection striking the earth.

Said well meaning, learned and wise Christians from every generation prior to ours...who were all 100% wrong.

EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM WAS 100% WRONG.

What makes you so special to think that in spite of that track record of 100% failure rate, that you are totally different in your ability to assess things better than the MILLIONS of Christians who came before you and said the same thing you are saying, and therefore you are right??

All I can say is that whatever has happened and will happen, is all part of God's Plan.
It is unfortunate that so many have been mistaken in their prognostications, but they were sincere in the beliefs, as I am.
One day it will all happen, or our Bibles are wrong.
Your vehement opposition to this idea, is a sad reflection of your unbelief of the Prophetic Word.