Learning To Love

[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 10:24 . . Nobody should seek only his own good, but also the good of others.

That's not saying it's wrong to seek your own good; just wrong to seek it at the expense of another's good; viz: selfish ambition might be an acceptable modus operandi in professional sports, politics, and big business; but it's totally unacceptable in one's association with fellow believers for whom Christ died.

And there's nothing new in that; I mean after all; it's just another way of expressing the so-called golden rule; which states: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." (Matt 7:12)
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[K2K]

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● 1Cor 10:24 . . Nobody should seek only his own good, but also the good of others.

That's not saying it's wrong to seek your own good; just wrong to seek it at the expense of another's good; viz: selfish ambition might be an acceptable modus operandi in professional sports, politics, and big business; but it's totally unacceptable in one's association with fellow believers for whom Christ died.

And there's nothing new in that; I mean after all; it's just another way of expressing the so-called golden rule; which states: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." (Matt 7:12)
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Could that verse "● 1Cor 10:24 . . Nobody should seek only his own good, but also the good of others."
mean that we should seek the Lord for the good of others?

I think that often people read it and believe it means lean own their own understanding for the good of others, but that is not really seeking is it? I mean our own understanding is sometime we have so we don't have to seek our understanding but we should be seeking the Lord for His understanding, right?

 

[WebersHome]

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Could that verse "● 1Cor 10:24 . . Nobody should seek only his own good, but also the good of others." mean that we should seek the Lord for the good of others?

The context is 1Cor 10:23-33, which wraps by saying: "Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

No doubt a whole Sunday-morning sermon could be devoted to that passage in regard to how people are turned off to the gospel by the thoughtless ways they're treated by someone reputed to be a Christian.
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[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 10:27-29 . . If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you "This has been offered in sacrifice" then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours.

If we go ahead and dine in someone's home knowing in advance the food is either dedicated to, or blessed by, a pagan deity, or that when they say grace around the table it will be to a god other than our own, or to a sacred personage that we do not accept; then our host is quite possibly going to come to the conclusion that his religion is just as valid as ours if we don't decline.

» But please, when declining; be kind, gentle, thoughtful, tactful, and diplomatic about it, i.e. considerate of the other person's feelings about their religion just as we wish for them to be considerate of ours.
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[K2K]

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The context is 1Cor 10:23-33, which wraps by saying: "Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

No doubt a whole Sunday-morning sermon could be devoted to that passage in regard to how people are turned off to the gospel by the thoughtless ways they're treated by someone reputed to be a Christian.
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If you not seeking "your own good" then are you not seeking the Lord's "good"? And if seeking His 'good' then His words and instructions, right?

But, it is a bit unclear as to whether you are seeking His voice concerning what is good. It does seem like you are actually seeking your own 'good' interpretation.

Now, concerning the "Sunday-morning sermon" should not have the preacher sought the Lord's voice and guidance so that the preacher is bring the message that the Lord personally asked him to?

And concerning the gospel, the good news, is it not that we can hear from the Lord Jesus Christ personally so we don't have to lean on our understanding of what is 'good' but rather we can hear His instruction and understanding of what is the 'good' and right thing to do?

Was not Saul a Pharisee of many years, zealous for God and doing what he thought was good? So Saul was traveling down a road to destruction when he heard a voice of the One he did not know, saying "Who are you Lord."

Do you know who I am talking about when I say we need to listen to Him to know what is 'good' and loving?

 

[K2K]

» But please, when declining; be kind, gentle, thoughtful, tactful, and diplomatic about it, i.e. considerate of the other person's feelings about their religion just as we wish for them to be considerate of ours.

This is a "Christian Forum" is it not?

And specifically this part of the forum is about "Discipleship: following Jesus"

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice, and He also told the Jews they searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. It has also been noted that only God is good and that God is love, and we know the Jesus Christ is the Word of God and is God.

So what part of searching the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life instead of seeking the Lord is part of being a "Christian"??? It is certainly not being a disciple of Jesus Christ. His sheep hear His voice. They are all taught of God.

And if, and since, hearing from Jesus Christ our Lord via His Holy Spirit talking to our spirit, what more loving thing can I do for someone than to point them to Him. Not only do they get eternal life if they believe in HIM, but also they get more in this life! They get things like wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. So the absolutely best and most loving thing I can do for a person is point them to our Lord Jesus Christ so they might be discipled by Him personally. That is what Christianity is - knowing Him personally - listening to Him - being discipled by Him.

If you have another religion, fine. But I am still going to do the loving thing and point your to Jesus Christ. And for that purpose the Scriptures are helpful. They explain that the word is near you. In your heart and on your lips, and that is the word of God which we are preaching, right?

 

[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 11:33-34 . . My brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

The command doesn't frown upon things like church banquets, men's' breakfasts, ladies' luncheons, and/or potlucks per se. What it's criticizing is a lack of congregational unity. Here's some comments leading up to that verse.

"Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

. . .Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat The Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you." (1Cor 11:17-22)

Their lack of courtesy and unity during church functions was nothing short of hypocrisy seeing as how The Lord's supper speaks of sacrifice rather than selfishness, elitism, and hoarding. In other words; seeing as how Christians all share in Christ's blood equally-- and deserve Hell equally --then everyone should be given equal treatment at church regardless of age, gender, skin color, intelligence, income level, nationality, what side of the tracks they live on, or social status.

None of Christ's body parts are untouchable as if Christianity is a caste system; nor are any expendable. God forbid that there should be some sort of value system in a gathering of people for whom Christ suffered and died equally for each one. That just wouldn't be right: it would be an insult to the principles underlying The Lord's supper.

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all of you." (Matt 26:27)

If Christians are all drinking from the same cup, then they should all be, at the very least, eating the same food and not be overly concerned about where they sit and/or who they sit next to and/or who they're seen with. And they should also make double sure that everyone gets enough to eat and that no one gets left out and nobody gets more than his fair share. And they should all sit down together at the same time. I just hate it when people don't wait for each other. Some get back to the table and start in gulping, slurping, clattering, and clanking while others from their table are still in line.

And they should also take into consideration the possibility that a number of their congregation are in assistance programs like TANF and SNAP. In other words; don't just bring enough food from home for yourself; but, if you're able, bring enough for those among you who can't bring anything at all. And for heaven's sake, don't bring a side dish of gourmet food along just for yourself. Leave your special gourmet stuff at home. There's just no excuse for flaunting your "sophistication" around church thus giving everyone the impression that everyone else's tastes are below yours.
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[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 12:24-27 . . God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no schism in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

It's sad that congregations have been reduced to the level of an invasive species in some churches by over-achieving, ambitious types passing themselves off as pastors, deacons, and elders. Churches like that might just as well start selling tickets to their sermons and Sunday schools; and set up red carpets outside so the rank and file might crowd up like the Oscars; where they can ooh and ahh over the Cadillac Escalades and Lexus LX10's driven by their church's managers; admire their fashions, cheer, kiss derrieres, lick shoes, pose for selfies, and ask for autographs.

John Q and Jane Doe pew warmers aren't expendable commodities; nor do they constitute a fan base. You have to figure that, maybe not all but, at least a number of them have been placed in Christ's body by the very same Holy Spirit that places people in a church's hierarchy. God forbid that church managers should begin to think of their congregations as just numbers.

I once attended a mega Baptist church in San Diego that hired a hot shot business man that we all had to address as "reverend" to help them increase their membership. Why would they do that when there was 4,000+ members on the books already? Well; I'll tell you why. They had an ambitious building program in mind that couldn't proceed without more money in the church's coffers; so they needed to increase their tax base, so to speak. Well; Mister HotShot got the church's numbers up, and the managers got their building program. My wife and I bailed. We wanted no part of it.

NOTE: After the church's managers got the congregation deeply in debt to finance the building program, they all took new positions elsewhere, including the pastor, leaving his flock holding the bag. That was the most disappointing church I ever attended. It treated the congregation like so many head of livestock: just dollars per pound on the hoof and cheap labor easily exploited.
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[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 14:1a . . Pursue charity

The Greek noun for "charity" in that command is agape (ag-ah'-pay) which, in most cases, is a very easy kind of love to practice. Though agape may, or may not, include the sentiments of fondness and/or affection like the Greek word phileo (fil-eh'-o), it always exemplifies benevolence; defined by Webster's as the disposition to do good, i.e. kindness, consideration, generosity, courtesy, lenience, tolerance, patience, sympathy, assistance, civility, friendliness, etc.

"Agape does no harm to its neighbor." (Rom 13:10)

In a nutshell, agape love allows us to be nice to people without particularly liking them. For example:

"I say to you, love your enemies" (Matt 5:44)

The Greek verb for "love" in that command is agapao (ag-ap-ah'-o) which refers to the practice of agape. In other words: it's agape in action.

Love in either form; whether agape or phileo, is the impetus of many of Christ's commandments. Christians whose conduct lacks agape haven't even got to first base yet; in point of fact, they're not even all that civil.
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[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 16:14 . . Do everything in love.

The Greek word translated "love" in this instance is agape (ag-ah'-pay) which doesn't necessarily indicate fondness or affection, but always indicates benevolence; defined by Webster's as the disposition to do good, e.g. generosity, charity, altruism, compassion, and sympathy, i.e. thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, hospitable, considerate, tactful, diplomatic, accommodating, cooperative, kind, courteous, lenient, tolerant, patient, helpful, civil, and friendly, etc.

In context; "everything" probably refers to the business of managing a church.

If a church officer's management practices tend to be more Machiavellian than Christian, then maybe he really ought to consider stepping down and finding himself a seat in a pew rather than a chair on the board. I mean it; this is not something to take lightly. 1Cor 16:14 isn't optional; it's mandatory.
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[K2K]

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● 1Cor 11:33-34 . . My brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

The command doesn't frown upon things like church banquets, men's' breakfasts, ladies' luncheons, and/or potlucks per se. What it's criticizing is a lack of congregational unity. Here's some comments leading up to that verse.

"Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

. . .Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat The Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you." (1Cor 11:17-22)

Their lack of courtesy and unity during church functions was nothing short of hypocrisy seeing as how The Lord's supper speaks of sacrifice rather than selfishness, elitism, and hoarding. In other words; seeing as how Christians all share in Christ's blood equally-- and deserve Hell equally --then everyone should be given equal treatment at church regardless of age, gender, skin color, intelligence, income level, nationality, what side of the tracks they live on, or social status.

None of Christ's body parts are untouchable as if Christianity is a caste system; nor are any expendable. God forbid that there should be some sort of value system in a gathering of people for whom Christ suffered and died equally for each one. That just wouldn't be right: it would be an insult to the principles underlying The Lord's supper.

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all of you." (Matt 26:27)

If Christians are all drinking from the same cup, then they should all be, at the very least, eating the same food and not be overly concerned about where they sit and/or who they sit next to and/or who they're seen with. And they should also make double sure that everyone gets enough to eat and that no one gets left out and nobody gets more than his fair share. And they should all sit down together at the same time. I just hate it when people don't wait for each other. Some get back to the table and start in gulping, slurping, clattering, and clanking while others from their table are still in line.

And they should also take into consideration the possibility that a number of their congregation are in assistance programs like TANF and SNAP. In other words; don't just bring enough food from home for yourself; but, if you're able, bring enough for those among you who can't bring anything at all. And for heaven's sake, don't bring a side dish of gourmet food along just for yourself. Leave your special gourmet stuff at home. There's just no excuse for flaunting your "sophistication" around church thus giving everyone the impression that everyone else's tastes are below yours.
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Very important stuff to consider

Eph 4:1-6 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

What is would point out that the parts about unity of the Spirit and one Lord.

If He is my Lord, meaning I get instructions from Him, and your Lord also meaning you get instructions from Him, then we do indeed have one Lord with the Spirit passing down instructions from Him to our spirit. So we are one with Him.

If both however we are not getting our instructions Him but are just leaning on our own understanding, then we are not one in unity with Him.

There were a groups of religious people back then which who did not actually hear from the Lord but acted according to their own understanding and discussion took place which brought Jesus to the cross, and many similar things such as that to those who believed.

There is a church which the Lord has specifically asked to attend. He has had me at times change churches, and even go check out other Christian churches. When I go I expect to find other Christians, who like me hear the voice of the Lord, and I sometimes do. I love spending time with fellow Christians who do actually hear from the Lord. Perhaps my favorite ministry the Lord had me in was a healing ministry where about 40 of us came together, broke bread, talked, and then prayed for people who came in for healing, and everyone in the ministry heard from the Lord. They had to. The first thing we did before bring in a person for prayer was ask the Lord for a word from the Lord and write it down. So you had to hear to even be a part of it, and that produced wonderful times.

I would really like to be coming here to this ministry "Christian Forums" and be finding the same type of people I find there in the Christian healing ministry. We could talk about hearing Him, being taught by Him and the things He told us via His still small voice, the miracles we saw from listening to Him and doing what He asked. It would all be great fun, like in that Christian healing ministry, if only His people would listen to His voice and stop leaning on their own understanding.

There is also something written about white washed tombs.

 

[Isilwen]

Very important stuff to consider

Eph 4:1-6 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

What is would point out that the parts about unity of the Spirit and one Lord.

If He is my Lord, meaning I get instructions from Him, and your Lord also meaning you get instructions from Him, then we do indeed have one Lord with the Spirit passing down instructions from Him to our spirit. So we are one with Him.

If both however we are not getting our instructions Him but are just leaning on our own understanding, then we are not one in unity with Him.

There were a groups of religious people back then which who did not actually hear from the Lord but acted according to their own understanding and discussion took place which brought Jesus to the cross, and many similar things such as that to those who believed.

There is a church which the Lord has specifically asked to attend. He has had me at times change churches, and even go check out other Christian churches. When I go I expect to find other Christians, who like me hear the voice of the Lord, and I sometimes do. I love spending time with fellow Christians who do actually hear from the Lord. Perhaps my favorite ministry the Lord had me in was a healing ministry where about 40 of us came together, broke bread, talked, and then prayed for people who came in for healing, and everyone in the ministry heard from the Lord. They had to. The first thing we did before bring in a person for prayer was ask the Lord for a word from the Lord and write it down. So you had to hear to even be a part of it, and that produced wonderful times.

I would really like to be coming here to this ministry "Christian Forums" and be finding the same type of people I find there in the Christian healing ministry. We could talk about hearing Him, being taught by Him and the things He told us via His still small voice, the miracles we saw from listening to Him and doing what He asked. It would all be great fun, like in that Christian healing ministry, if only His people would listen to His voice and stop leaning on their own understanding.

There is also something written about white washed tombs.

Here's the thing. These forums are for all kinds of Christians. From Christians like you, to Christians like me, and everything in between and beyond! What I keep trying to tell you and you don't seem to understand is that not everyone does things like you and that's really okay.

You hear from Jesus and He tells you how to dress for that day, wonderful and good on ya! However, not everyone is like that. Not everyone believes as you do and I am one of those people. I don't need to hear from Jesus on how to dress that day, or how to shop or anything like that. I have a brain and I use it.

I believe God developed us with these brains so that we would use them and make our own decisions. That's my belief and not yours and as I said, that's okay. My best friend used to say that it takes all kinds of critters to make Farmer Vincent's fritters. In other words, it takes all kinds of people to make a community is his meaning.

 

[K2K]

Here's the thing. These forums are for all kinds of Christians. From Christians like you, to Christians like me, and everything in between and beyond! What I keep trying to tell you and you don't seem to understand is that not everyone does things like you and that's really okay.

You hear from Jesus and He tells you how to dress for that day, wonderful and good on ya! However, not everyone is like that. Not everyone believes as you do and I am one of those people. I don't need to hear from Jesus on how to dress that day, or how to shop or anything like that. I have a brain and I use it.

I believe God developed us with these brains so that we would use them and make our own decisions. That's my belief and not yours and as I said, that's okay. My best friend used to say that it takes all kinds of critters to make Farmer Vincent's fritters. In other words, it takes all kinds of people to make a community is his meaning.

Do you think He might have something to say about how you dress in heaven?

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”

And don't you think listening to someone who is called Wonderful Counselor, Wisdom, Teacher, Everlasting Father, the Word of God, and God might be someone who could help you develop that brain He gave you.


When I listen to Him I heard Him tell me "Karl, I love you", but even more than that I hear from Him and from the ministering angels He send to me that I can not even understand the depth of His love for me! And if me, why not others. There is nothing special about me. I mean it is written the God is love!

So considering God is love and I hear Him tell me He loves me and the angels say I can not possible understand the depth of His love for me - One of the most incredible verses in the Bible is Mal 1:4

I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

How is it that He actually hated Esau? What could have caused that? It is a scary thing to consider that it is possible that God, who is love, can actually hate someone. I wouldn't want that, so I try to make it a habit of listening to Him.

 

[Isilwen]

Do you think He might have something to say about how you dress in heaven?

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”

And don't you think listening to someone who is called Wonderful Counselor, Wisdom, Teacher, Everlasting Father, the Word of God, and God might be someone who could help you develop that brain He gave you.


When I listen to Him I heard Him tell me "Karl, I love you", but even more than that I hear from Him and from the ministering angels He send to me that I can not even understand the depth of His love for me! And if me, why not others. There is nothing special about me. I mean it is written the God is love!

So considering God is love and I hear Him tell me He loves me and the angels say I can not possible understand the depth of His love for me - One of the most incredible verses in the Bible is Mal 1:4

I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

How is it that He actually hated Esau? What could have caused that? It is a scary thing to consider that it is possible that God, who is love, can actually hate someone. I wouldn't want that, so I try to make it a habit of listening to Him.

I know He loves me, of that I have no doubt!

 

[Isilwen]

When I listen to Him I heard Him tell me "Karl, I love you", but even more than that I hear from Him and from the ministering angels He send to me that I can not even understand the depth of His love for me!

One other thing I am noticing about your posts, you seem to be reassured and directed at every turn. You seem to need a lot of direction.

I know He loves me because I have faith in His love for me. It is rare that I need any kind of reassurance. When I do, I read the Bible and I can see the love as he went to the cross for me. That there is love.

This is my favorite verse in the Bible and is usually in my signature:

NIV John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

That is love and goes back to Jesus dying on the cross for me, you and everyone! When I doubt, and it's rare, that is the verse I to turn to. Then my doubt melts away.

So, maybe because I don't need much in the way of direction and reassurance is the reason why I don't have this drive to hear from Jesus as you do. There are Christians very much like me, they have faith that He loves them and that's enough. There are Christians like you, who need to hear it and that is your reassurance. Neither way is wrong and neither way is better than the other.

In my job as an EMT I have what are called standing orders, standing operating procedures and standing operating guidelines. These orders, procedures and guidelines tell me how my job is to be done when something happens that needs to be taken care of medically. I have read these orders I know what they are. If I need to refresh my memory I go back and look again. I don't need to be told what to do everytime I need to treat a patient. The Bible is very much like that to me. It is a book of standing orders, procedures and guidelines. I don't need to hear what to do, it is all right there in the Bible. If I need to refresh my memory I go back and look again or as I read my Bible frequently I reread those orders, procedures and guidelines.

 

[WebersHome]

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● 1Cor 16:15-18 . .You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it. I was glad when Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus arrived, because they have supplied what was lacking from you. For they refreshed my spirit and yours also. Such men deserve recognition.

Paul and his associates depended pretty heavily upon the hospitality of local believers for accommodations and daily necessities. Congregations do well to follow the examples of Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus either by opening their homes to missionaries or by funding their stay in a motel, providing them with some pocket money, and possibly a rental car. (Universal gift cards would be good too.)
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[K2K]

One other thing I am noticing about your posts, you seem to be reassured and directed at every turn. You seem to need a lot of direction.

I know He loves me because I have faith in His love for me. It is rare that I need any kind of reassurance. When I do, I read the Bible and I can see the love as he went to the cross for me. That there is love.

This is my favorite verse in the Bible and is usually in my signature:

NIV John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

That is love and goes back to Jesus dying on the cross for me, you and everyone! When I doubt, and it's rare, that is the verse I to turn to. Then my doubt melts away.

So, maybe because I don't need much in the way of direction and reassurance is the reason why I don't have this drive to hear from Jesus as you do. There are Christians very much like me, they have faith that He loves them and that's enough. There are Christians like you, who need to hear it and that is your reassurance. Neither way is wrong and neither way is better than the other.

I really like the above post. There are a number of things I would like to address in it, but I understand where you are coming from. I know a lot of Christians have a very similar idea about the Lord and how we should respond to Him. It has a lot to do with 'freedom in Christ' and we do have freedom in Christ. He made us and in so doing gave us the freedom to make choices in our life.

Where you and I disagree is on how best to make our choices and use our freedom in Christ.

For example you concluded that I "seem to be reassured and directed at every turn".

I would certainly like to be reassured and directed at every turn! Specifically, by the Lord my God, I would like reassurance and direction at every turn.

Yet you seem to think that is a bad thing, while I believe that it is a good thing. So we might look at why we differ in this aspect. I will tell you why I think we differ on whether or not we should get direction from God at every turn or not? I think we differ because of our pride.

Is not God smarter than you?

Now I think God is smarter than me, so I have to conclude that seeking Him for what to do at every turn is much better than leaning on my own understanding. Further more, from listening to Him that line of thinking has proven to be correct and if anything it is vastly understated! It turns out the He is not just smarter than me, but rather that He is sooooo much smarter than me that I can not even grasp the difference in His and my ability to think. What could I compare the difference in intellectual capacity too? It I compare the difference to my ability to think and my cats, I have massively understated it.

We find out in the Scriptures that even Jesus Christ, the One who is the perfect image of the invisible God, did not think knowing the depths of God something that could be understood. So He response to the conclusion was to say and do only what the Father told Him!!!! Jesus Christ was in fact seeking "reassurance and direction at every turn," and He was receiving it!!!

Now, you point to the cross. Do you not know that Jesus asked the Father to remove that cup from Him? Never-the-less He made a choice to do the will of the Father. Jesus Christ had a choices to make and if you think you have been given freedom to choice don't you think Jesus, the only begotten Son, had been given the freedom to choose? He choose to be lead by the Father all the way to the cross!! He wanted out of it, and could have gotten out of it. He could have called on any incredible number of angels and had all His foes destroyed right then and there, but He made a choice to do and say only what the Father told Him.

I fall massively short of Jesus Christ. I sadly only hear from the Lord about a dozen different times a day. So while you think I feel the need for regular assurance and direction, I don't actually seek it nearly as much as I should. I would like to, but being a person I fall massively short of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The thing is, I have a better understand of how far I fall short of doing and saying only what He tells me than Christian who feel like they don't need to seek His voice for reassurance and instruction do.

You are correct in thinking 'I need regular instructions from Him' but you are wrong in thinking that any of us seek and get those instructions like we should!!!

We usually go about leaning on our own understanding, thinking we don't need God, that we are good and loving people to the right things. That is just pride. Of us it is written, 'If you being evil" Of Him it is written "only God is good". Yet somehow we conclude that we have learned how to be good.

My friends, have you not read that your best works are like dirty filthy rags to the Lord? Quite trying to live by your best works and start seeking the Lord and His words for you personally! God is love, not you! So if you can, seek Him and His voice so you might listen to Him at every turn.

Then He will no longer hide from you, and you will get instructions at every turn! That's a good thing!

Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you,
And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
How blessed are all those who long for Him.
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you.
Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher.
Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

 

[K2K]

.
● 1Cor 16:15-18 . .You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it. I was glad when Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus arrived, because they have supplied what was lacking from you. For they refreshed my spirit and yours also. Such men deserve recognition.

Paul and his associates depended pretty heavily upon the hospitality of local believers for accommodations and daily necessities. Congregations do well to follow the examples of Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus either by opening their homes to missionaries or by funding their stay in a motel, providing them with some pocket money, and possibly a rental car. (Universal gift cards would be good too.)
_

Why did Stephanas devote themselves to the service of the saints? Could it have been that the Lord told them to, and they listened?

Let me ask you - Where does your help come from? Have you not read something about your help coming from above?

Who do you see as your provider? Is there nothing you read about God providing for you?

It is in the Law that we must love our neighbor, but the how we are to personally know what part we are to play except by listening to God, who is love?.

Is not this section called "Discipleship: Following Jesus" but where is that in your discussion?

A disciple hears the voice of his Lord, and Jesus said He leads His sheep out with His voice. Paul wanted to know only one thing from the Galatians, 'Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law or by hearing with faith?"

So I guess I really only need to know one thing from you: "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law of by hearing with faith?

 

[Isilwen]

I really like the above post. There are a number of things I would like to address in it, but I understand where you are coming from. I know a lot of Christians have a very similar idea about the Lord and how we should respond to Him. It has a lot to do with 'freedom in Christ' and we do have freedom in Christ. He made us and in so doing gave us the freedom to make choices in our life.

Where you and I disagree is on how best to make our choices and use our freedom in Christ.

For example you concluded that I "seem to be reassured and directed at every turn".

I would certainly like to be reassured and directed at every turn! Specifically, by the Lord my God, I would like reassurance and direction at every turn.

Yet you seem to think that is a bad thing, while I believe that it is a good thing. So we might look at why we differ in this aspect. I will tell you why I think we differ on whether or not we should get direction from God at every turn or not? I think we differ because of our pride.

Is not God smarter than you?

Now I think God is smarter than me, so I have to conclude that seeking Him for what to do at every turn is much better than leaning on my own understanding. Further more, from listening to Him that line of thinking has proven to be correct and if anything it is vastly understated! It turns out the He is not just smarter than me, but rather that He is sooooo much smarter than me that I can not even grasp the difference in His and my ability to think. What could I compare the difference in intellectual capacity too? It I compare the difference to my ability to think and my cats, I have massively understated it.

We find out in the Scriptures that even Jesus Christ, the One who is the perfect image of the invisible God, did not think knowing the depths of God something that could be understood. So He response to the conclusion was to say and do only what the Father told Him!!!! Jesus Christ was in fact seeking "reassurance and direction at every turn," and He was receiving it!!!

Now, you point to the cross. Do you not know that Jesus asked the Father to remove that cup from Him? Never-the-less He made a choice to do the will of the Father. Jesus Christ had a choices to make and if you think you have been given freedom to choice don't you think Jesus, the only begotten Son, had been given the freedom to choose? He choose to be lead by the Father all the way to the cross!! He wanted out of it, and could have gotten out of it. He could have called on any incredible number of angels and had all His foes destroyed right then and there, but He made a choice to do and say only what the Father told Him.

I fall massively short of Jesus Christ. I sadly only hear from the Lord about a dozen different times a day. So while you think I feel the need for regular assurance and direction, I don't actually seek it nearly as much as I should. I would like to, but being a person I fall massively short of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The thing is, I have a better understand of how far I fall short of doing and saying only what He tells me than Christian who feel like they don't need to seek His voice for reassurance and instruction do.

You are correct in thinking 'I need regular instructions from Him' but you are wrong in thinking that any of us seek and get those instructions like we should!!!

We usually go about leaning on our own understanding, thinking we don't need God, that we are good and loving people to the right things. That is just pride. Of us it is written, 'If you being evil" Of Him it is written "only God is good". Yet somehow we conclude that we have learned how to be good.

My friends, have you not read that your best works are like dirty filthy rags to the Lord? Quite trying to live by your best works and start seeking the Lord and His words for you personally! God is love, not you! So if you can, seek Him and His voice so you might listen to Him at every turn.

Then He will no longer hide from you, and you will get instructions at every turn! That's a good thing!

Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you,
And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
How blessed are all those who long for Him.
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you.
Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher.
Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

There is no pride in my post. You have read that into my meaning. Also, did I not say neither way is wrong and neither way is better than the other?

I get my instruction from the instruction manual, the Bible. I get my reassurance from the Bible where it says there is no greater love, than to lay down one's life for their friends and I read that Jesus gave His life on the cross.

So why would you say, yet you seem to think that is a bad thing, while I believe that it is a good thing? I didn't say it was a bad thing. I said neither way is wrong and neither way is better than the other.

I am accepting of the way you do it as that is the way you do it. That is not pride, that is accepting that you do something differently than me.

I have been saying that these is no one way to do this thing we call Christianity. We do hear His voice, but we hear it in the Bible from the scripture that we read, which you choose not to accept as a way that someone can hear His voice, as the words written are inspired by God.

So, from this point forward my response I guess to you will have to be we will agree to disagree because you seem not willing to accept that there are different ways of doing this and your way or my way is neither wrong or the only way.

 

[K2K]

As Christians we need to love people!! So there are things in the OP and this thread which are important to understand. Yet understanding comes from the mouth of God and not us leaning on our own understanding!!!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Prov 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

I believe there is a problem in the OP and in this thread as presented!

I worked in a Christian healing ministry for 5 years. Christians came in needing healing! Mostly they did not come in for physical healing, in fact many didn't consider God could or would heal they physical problems, so often as not I found out about the physical problems from the Lord talking to me instead of the person telling me. Yet I am not talking about physical problems right now.

I am talking about well meaning Christians destroying other peoples lives because they are not listening to the Lord!!!!!!!!!

I am going to give you 2 examples, but this happens all the time. The 'this' I am talking about is one Christian telling the other Christian what they must do instead of sending the to the Lord to find out what He needs for them to do. It is making it about works of the Law instead of about hearing Jesus Christ.

First example - because I worked in the healing ministry I was asked by the Lord to help in another ministry at times, which was available to people in the church. There was a class meant to teach and help people get some deep healing, and at the end of that class some ministry was done. I was helping with the ministry at the end. I was working with a young man that was well connected at the church and considered a future leader. I think we ministered to about 4 people that day but right, and were probably into the third person when about a minute before are next person came in the Lord started getting chatty with me.

I am always trying to listen to Him at those times but suddenly His voice had an urgent and very concern sound to it. He was telling me something like "Karl, this next person coming in has a very big problem and it is with the church. He is well-know in the church and you are going to have to handle this very carefully. Listen to me very closely and go slow, because I need this problem handled. The person is blaming Me, but only because He doesn't understand. I need you to help him understand, so listen close."

Ok - that indeed caught my attention and I was trying to put it all together as the person came in. I had never seen him before, but the future leader I was with knew the person really well. It turns out that he had a job in the office of the church.

Now the Lord kept talking to me, though I was not sure exactly what was up yet. When I got a chance the Lord had me ask the person what they were hoping to do with their life - that released the information and disclosed the problem, and it was a very serious problem.

This was a very sharp young man who had a dream, a vision, and a hope. He had hoped to become an engineer. He wanted to go to college, but he also wanted to to the right thing. One of the pastors at the church, meaning well, had gotten him a job in the office of the church to "help" him. He had recently gotten married, so that pastor seeing that he was a sharp young man and seeking that he was a Christian wanting to do the right thing talked man into taking a job serving at the church!

HUGH MISTAKE!!!! This young man married man who wanted to be an engineer and was smart enough to be an engineer was now working at an extremely low paying job so him and his wife were stuck in a small room in her parents home. He was mad at the Lord - and you know what I could understand why. He had been in that situation for over a year and it was tearing him up and his marriage apart, all because he was serving the Lord according to what this well-meaning a "wise" pastor had told him.

That pastor never told him to seek the voice of the Lord!! But serve the Lord according to what the pastor had told him was the message given to this young smart promising man, and it was wrecking his life.

The Lord told me to ask him specifically, "Do you think the Lord could make use of an engineer?"

With those words I had been told to ask by the Lord Himself, that man got life back in him! There is a bit more to that side of the story. I believe it got that man back on track, got him understanding, and I believe helped stop him being mad at God. I believe he got a great lesson about hearing from the Lord and not just doing things because some pastor told you. A good lesson to learn.

Yet I want to bring up one other thing before the next testimony. I had taken a class with that specific pastor about two years earlier. In that class that pastor told us who he wisely choose who worked for him at the church and he didn't mention anything about hearing from the Lord when choosing who worked at the church. So I had asked him then, 2 years earlier, if he shouldn't seek the voice of the Lord before hiring someone, and he dismissed that question with prejudice. Now he had ruined this young man's life in the name of God, and the Lord had just used me to correct the problem.

People - your best works are just filthy rags to the Lord - you have to hear from him.

So now the next story and it is almost exactly like the first but it went further and is more personal to me.

A while ago the Lord told gave me a message, somewhat vague or perhaps not, to someone. The message was about a ring in the fire. And yes, there was a ring in the fire. That man was making arraignments to propose marriage to, as it turned out, a niece of mine. They got married and in a huge wedding. I heard $30,000 was spent on just the wedding, and they looked like the perfect couple. It should have worked out, but a pastor got in the way!!

The young man was a Christian and wanted to serve the Lord. The pastor at his church had told the young man that he should leave his job and move closer to the church and they would make a minister of him. So he was not living with his new wife. The marriage never got going because of the silly stupid advice from some idiotic pastor who didn't listen to the Lord.

Ok, that is no way to talk about a man of God, but if he was indeed a man of God he would have listened to the Lord and not literally broken up their marriage!! My Lord does not do that type of thing!! And if you even read the Bible you know that a husband is supposed to cling to his wife! Yet even well schooled and well meaning pastor do them!!

People - you need to seek the Lord and get to know Him. He is love, not even your pastor is love. The pastor or priest at your church has a job to do and it involves listening the Lord our God Jesus Christ and if they don't do that they cause problems no matter how much they talk about love! They need to listen to love - God is love - so listen to Him and quit leaning on your own understanding.


BTW - There are pastors who faithfully listen to the Lord. In that first story about the pastor and engineer. The head pastor at that church does hear from the Lord. In fact, the pastor who didn't hear from the Lord when hiring people once told the whole congregation how he had come to sit in the back of the service and was asking the Lord what he was supposed to do next with the head pastor pointed to him at the back during a service and told him that they had to talk after the service. It turns out that the pastor who did not listen to the Lord and even dismissed the idea of listening to the Lord when hiring people had in fact gotten his job because the head pastor at the church did listen to the Lord when hiring, and he knew that but didn't follow the example before him.

Jesus is the true head pastor and He set an example of listening and doing only what the Father told Him. Should we follow His example?