The 4 Beasts & the 4 Horsemen.

[Helmut-WK]

From Wikipedia

Yes, I know. There is no mention of a common leader of Benelux - because, as I have said, there is no such leader.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, I know. There is no mention of a common leader of Benelux - because, as I have said, there is no such leader.

The presidency of the Benelux is held in turn by the three countries for a period of one year. The Netherlands hold the presidency in 2020.

 

[Joyous Song]

About Daniel, The honest truth is we haven’t worked in Danial in years and much of that book was about His time. Even when its about our time, these passages are often difficult to understand without looking in the Hebrew, and reading it in Hebrew sometimes.

As to the passages we are discussing, we would like to discuss this further, but we are right now working on Isaiah 28 and we are just starting. So though this seems a fascinating study, I’m afraid we will not be able to put forth a effort worthy of your own.

Hopefully some day we can hit up Danial again, but until then we’ll give you on rain check for this study.

 

[Joyous Song]

Revelation, at least the early books we are working on (we have posted Chapter one of the Scriptures site). So these study we can respond to. Marilyn C, posted:


The problem with this exegesis: John sees the lamb slain before the throne of God. He is the one that has the right to one the seals and thus enact the document - I'm next to certain it is about giving the authority over the world to the one opening the seals.

First off John is told whom called out these first four messages:


And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev.6.1


One of the four beast: Face of the Father, Face of the Mother, Face of the Son, and The Bride of Christ. These are those four beast so when we go to interpret Revelation.6 each seal must be linked, with proof to one of these four creatures.

We gave the quote Christ stated that set this seal into motion and Christ is the Face of Father’s Son! He is the only one who can have that face! So he can both open that seal, and call out or this text makes no sense! Yet it was not Christ physically but in His Church conquering happens this next passage came to pass:


And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 2


The horse is white, this means victory because the Gospel will be victorious in what it needs to be. He that sat on it might not be Christ, it may be that papacy. The bow: Judah is my bow, and Israel is my arrow. Zech.9.13. Peter, a Jew lead the Church initially, so this may denote Peter. Then its Peter who gained the crown of Life when he gave up his life for Christ! Yet all Pope, Jew and gentile origin are upon the seat of Peter, thus the last pope is Patros Romanous!

Therefore we agree:

Whoever the first horseman is - he is not Christ.

It is His Church led by Her Jewish Pope initially, and this Jewish pope is still at her root. It is His Church that went forth to conquer and to conquer the world with His Gospel yet this same Church was called to do so Through the Face of the Son- Christ. This is closer to our study and perhaps if I had had more time before posting last week, I might have done a better job of shrinking this down to a manageable size without loosing so much too much detail, and truth.

 

[Joyous Song]

Marilyn C, post: No, you are misled by the fact that it is green in the other NT verses.

Actually χλωρός or chlōros means primarily green with yellow and pale as alternate meaning. And though pale, means feeble by European standards this book was written by a Jew. I found a study on this very topic, by the way you might find interesting: HEBREW/ARAMAIC WORD STUDY – PLAGUE

Marilyn C, post: There is no reason to focus on "green" (which has many symbolism: Money, environment, Islam, ...) instead of yellow or gray. And if you think of an English term that describes the color, "pale" or "color of a corpse" are probably the best candidates.

As the study we posted stated Pale works just as well for our interpretation if you prefer pale. This still fits a plague and Covid-19 has many strange behaviors that might suggest a heavenly origin:

It just seems to have shown up out of no where

Immunity does not last thus a vaccine might not work

People can get this with no outward signs at all and spread this.

It highly infectious, more infectious that any other virus we face to date.

It may or may not be the virus of this seal. One quarter of the world, or a nation of Judah or Ephraim must die from this virus, so the jury is still out at least till this virus runs it course.

Still we see in the fourth seal clearly a infectious virus like Covid-19 so if its another one, that pretty scary if you think of it.

As for the other seals, these are also called out by the Four living Creatures but we haven’t worked out that link for the other three of a yet or if they are calling in unison after seal four. This is why we opened this up to discussion curious what others might see.

 

[Helmut-WK]

The presidency of the Benelux is held in turn by the three countries for a period of one year. The Netherlands hold the presidency in 2020.

Link evidence for that.

And the secretary of Benelux is no leader. Benelux has no leader, compare the trade agreement of USA, Canada and Mexico: This does not mean the three countries have a common leader.

 

[Helmut-WK]

Marilyn C, posted:

The problem with this exegesis: John sees the lamb slain before the throne of God. He is the one that has the right to one the seals and thus enact the document - I'm next to certain it is about giving the authority over the world to the one opening the seals.

This was not Marylin, it was me who wrote that.

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev.6.1

The context suggest it was the first creature (the Greek word denotes a "living one", not a wild beast).

We gave the quote Christ stated that set this seal into motion and Christ is the Face of Father’s Son!

What? Jesus is not just the face of the Son, but the Son Himself!

So he can both open that seal, and call out or this text makes no sense!

Why do you think that it makes no sense that the voice was not the voice of Christ, but the voice of the first of the creatures (the lion, Rev 4:7) next to the throne of God? To reckon the four creatures as God implies we should replace the Trinity doctrine at least by a sort of Quarternity doctrine (four, not three, or even more). Do you really intend to teach that?

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 2

I doubt that any first century reader read the text like this. They knew about the white robes a military leader got wen he went out to fight for Rome (and of course he was sent out to conquer). The consequence of such a sending is war (the second seal!).

Whoever the first horseman is - he is not Christ.

It is His Church led by Her Jewish Pope initially

There is no Jewish Pope, what do you try to tell? And either the Revelation was quite misleading for first century readers, or the Church as the first horseman implies it is the Church that takes away the peace from earth. Again: Do you understand what you are affirming?

 

[Helmut-WK]

Marilyn C, post

Again, you mix things up. It was not Marylin, it was me

Actually χλωρός or chlōros means primarily green with yellow and pale as alternate meaning.

According to linguistic textbooks that cite colors as an example how languages group reality in different ways, "alternative meaning" is the wrong term. There is only one meianing, and "green, yellow, grey" or "pale" are approximations in English terms to that meaning.

And though pale, means feeble by European standards

Not in every European languages. Replace "European" by "English", please.

this book was written by a Jew. I found a study on this very topic, by the way you might find interesting: HEBREW/ARAMAIC WORD STUDY – PLAGUE

I disagree with this page on one point: While it was definitely not enough to read just one newspaper to get an unbiased view, you could arrive at a rather unbiased view by reading several different newspapers. And regarding the new SARS-COV-2 virus, the cause of covid-19, we have different media accessible. I got informed by the Korean KCDC (because I was in Korea at a crucial point), German television, John Hopkins (worldometer) and discussions in a Christian German social media, with discussions including people from Switzerland, Austria and even some other countries. But who only listen to Fox probably will be as "unbiased" as one who read only one newspaper.

As the study we posted stated Pale works just as well for our interpretation if you prefer pale. This still fits a plague

I almost said the same.

and Covid-19 has many strange behaviors that might suggest a heavenly origin:

It just seems to have shown up out of no where

No virus comes literally "out of nowhere". A new virus usually comes from some animal. When there is close contact to humans, and some "compatibility" in metabolism, a virus that exists in animals may start to reproduce in humans. Usually he will "optimize" his spreading with some mutations. The new covid-19 plague comes from bats, presumly through some interim host. Whether it got into Wuhan on a meat market or whether it escaped from a lab, we will most probably never know (Trump will never admit he was wrong in suggesting an lab accident, the Chinese will never admit there was such an incident).

Immunity does not last thus a vaccine might not work

There are plenty of viruses where vaccine only works for some time. As to covid-19, it is still unclear how long immunity will last. Some persons may have tested as "false positives" ...

People can get this with no outward signs at all and spread this.

Again, this is not the4 first virus with such a feature.

It highly infectious, more infectious that any other virus we face to date.

At least there are viruses we know of that are more infectious. AFAIK know Ebola is one of them.

It may or may not be the virus of this seal. One quarter of the world, or a nation of Judah or Ephraim must die from this virus, so the jury is still out at least till this virus runs it course.

Given the enormous efforts to get a vaccine, and the rather low mortality (there are plenty of viruses that are more lethal than this), I doubt it will cause as many as 20% of the world population, even 10% seems to be a rather high estimate.

On the other hand: Given the environmental crisis with animals losing their natural habitat, we will face more close contacts with animals that may allow a new virus to enter humans. The probability of new pandemics is rising.

And even known plagues can become serious dangers: Multi-resistant bacteria may cause a pandemic. Such bacteria are "breeded" by too much antibiotics (in hospitals, on animal farms, or ion pharmaceutic factories in India or otherwise), if you allow some loose expression. The odds are high that you will encounter more pandemics in your lifetime. Covid-19 is a precursor of more to come ...

 

[Marilyn C]

About Daniel, The honest truth is we haven’t worked in Danial in years and much of that book was about His time. Even when its about our time, these passages are often difficult to understand without looking in the Hebrew, and reading it in Hebrew sometimes.

As to the passages we are discussing, we would like to discuss this further, but we are right now working on Isaiah 28 and we are just starting. So though this seems a fascinating study, I’m afraid we will not be able to put forth a effort worthy of your own.

Hopefully some day we can hit up Danial again, but until then we’ll give you on rain check for this study.

Hi Joyous Song,

What a great name. Now thanks for popping in and look forward to discussing with you some time.

 

[Marilyn C]

Link evidence for that.

That reference was from Wikipedia under the Benelux topic.

 

[Helmut-WK]

That reference was from Wikipedia under the Benelux topic.

Are you kidding? I read that Wikipedia article, and there was no mention of a leader. Or do you think there is a common leader (above Trump, Trudeau, and Lopez) of the USMCA? Or in any other multinational organization the USA are a member of?

 

[Marilyn C]

Are you kidding? I read that Wikipedia article, and there was no mention of a leader. Or do you think there is a common leader (above Trump, Trudeau, and Lopez) of the USMCA? Or in any other multinational organization the USA are a member of?

Helmut,

How about asking instead of ridicule and accusations. We are all here (I hope) to share & receive information from each other.

If you go back to Wikipedia & look at the Benelux topic you`ll find the information about the rotating Presidency down near the bottom of the article under the title of `Benelux Committee of Ministers.`

 

[Helmut-WK]

If you go back to Wikipedia & look at the Benelux topic you`ll find the information about the rotating Presidency down near the bottom of the article under the title of `Benelux Committee of Ministers.`

That is no leadership. Unless of course, you think there is a common leader (above Trump, Trudeau, and Lopez) of the USMCA. Or in any other multinational organization the USA are a member of. - That's not ridicule, is a serious analogy.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is no leadership. Unless of course, you think there is a common leader (above Trump, Trudeau, and Lopez) of the USMCA. Or in any other multinational organization the USA are a member of. - That's not ridicule, is a serious analogy.

Note it was NOT a leader of the individual nations in a Political sense but only for a `customs agreement.` This quote is from Wikipedia and the Benelux topic.

The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).

I really think you need to read more carefully what I say and what is written in the Benelux topic of Wikipedia.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Helmut-WK]

The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).

Yes, Benelux is a custom's agreement, like USMCA. Therefore the parallel I draw.

Neither within the EEC -> EC -> EU nor in any other organization does Benelux replace the three independent states. And as I said before, there is no common leader. The EEC started as a union of six, not four, the EU is now a union of 27, not 25.

So your sentence

Benelux comprises of Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemboug. There is one leader for the three.

is simply wrong. This is all I said, and your explanations and quotes are rather off-topic top the question whether there is a common leader.

 

[Helmut-WK]

horses____the four spirits of the heavens

white - the spirit of wisdom
Proverbs 4 - with wisdom and understanding - get a crown delivered

red - the spirit of counsel and might

Counsel and might take the peace away?

black - the spirit of knowledge
/lack of knowledge - or refuse it -and eat your food by weight in that land
and still not have enough

Just taking lack of knowledge instead of knowledge - so in analogy we should deduce the first horseman is the lack of wisdom?

The beast is not the little horn.

The little horn does not appear in Revelation.

In Daniel, it is a prophecy about Antiochus Epiphanes, and since this is not repeated in the NT, I conclude that the little horn thing does not refer to anything in our future.