LDS why is the BOM in King James English

[He is the way]

All these alleged Israelites that supposedly came to America, did they bring OT scriptures with them? If not, why not?

They did bring Old Testament scriptures with them.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Bible does NOT say that the angel Moroni is Satan. The Bible does not say that Jesus did NOT visit other sheep not of that fold who were in the Americas. You are just telling us what your opinion is.

The bible does not say that Jesus went to the Americas---the bible does not say that Moroni is an angel of God---that is only the opinion of the LDS.

The bible does say:

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Moroni was never tested by anyone to see what side he was on. We must go by what the bible says and all prophets and angels of God, pointed to the scriptures and Jesus. Moroni degraded the scriptures as being corrupted and pointed to JS now being more accurate than the bible because of the info the angel gave. That right there fits an angel of Satan, not an angel of God and is therefore not my opinion, but the opinion of the bible. You are free to choose whatever you want to believe in, as am I.

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe in true prophets and the true Christ of the Bible who is one with the Father in glory and perfection as He so stated:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So do I, which has nothing to do with JS or Moroni.

 

[He is the way]

The bible does not say that Jesus went to the Americas---the bible does not say that Moroni is an angel of God---that is only the opinion of the LDS.

The bible does say:

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Moroni was never tested by anyone to see what side he was on. We must go by what the bible says and all prophets and angels of God, pointed to the scriptures and Jesus. Moroni degraded the scriptures as being corrupted and pointed to JS now being more accurate than the bible because of the info the angel gave. That right there fits an angel of Satan, not an angel of God and is therefore not my opinion, but the opinion of the bible. You are free to choose whatever you want to believe in, as am I.

It is actually your opinion. Moroni was not the one who said that plain and precious things were taken from the Bible. That is found in 1 Nephi. I have my own proof that the Book of Mormon is true. And as I have said, I believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is actually your opinion. Moroni was not the one who said that plain and precious things were taken from the Bible. That is found in 1 Nephi. I have my own proof that the Book of Mormon is true. And as I have said, I believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The true Jesus was the creator of all---from nothing. He was the actual only Son of God. That God the Father was from everlasting to everlasting always God and so was His Son and that Son was of the same substance as His Father. The Father was never a human man born of humans. The Son, having creating all things, was the creator of Lucifer. He also became human, not to become a God, for He already was God, but to save His creation and give all the saved eternal life with Him., Not just a few whom He exalts above all others, and those others can not be with Him. If this is the same Jesus you worship---then you are worshipping the true Jesus.

Moroni is said to be a captain of the Nephites, resurrected as an angel. So you have not an angel, created by God as a messenger, but s spirit of the dead captain. We are told to not listen to the spirits of the dead. Angels are created by God---as Lucifer was created---by Jesus, the creator of all through the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are not the spirits of the dead. Those spirits are from Satan, as Saul spoke to the spirits of Satan, not actually Samuel.

 

[He is the way]

The true Jesus was the creator of all---from nothing. He was the actual only Son of God. That God the Father was from everlasting to everlasting always God and so was His Son and that Son was of the same substance as His Father. The Father was never a human man born of humans. The Son, having creating all things, was the creator of Lucifer. He also became human, not to become a God, for He already was God, but to save His creation and give all the saved eternal life with Him., Not just a few whom He exalts above all others, and those others can not be with Him. If this is the same Jesus you worship---then you are worshipping the true Jesus.

Moroni is said to be a captain of the Nephites, resurrected as an angel. So you have not an angel, created by God as a messenger, but s spirit of the dead captain. We are told to not listen to the spirits of the dead. Angels are created by God---as Lucifer was created---by Jesus, the creator of all through the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are not the spirits of the dead. Those spirits are from Satan, as Saul spoke to the spirits of Satan, not actually Samuel.

Where does the Bible state that the Father and the Son are of the same substance? You do not worship the true Christ of the Bible. He is one with the Father in glory and perfection.

 

[Peter1000]

The "other sheep" could simply be the Gentiles, Jesus did not preach to them in His ministry, save one incident of some Greeks who came to Jesus.

The Bible records only that Jesus appears in Jerusalem and Gallilee after resurrection.

Whether road to Damascus appearance to Paul was simply in vision is sort of vague; Paul's companions heard a voice but didn't see a light, or vice-versa, or heard but didn't understand...

That Jesus appeared in America is speculation - He COULD HAVE appeared in Tokyo and preached to Godzilla, He might have appeared on Venus and preached to extraterrestials - where does it all end?

C. S. Lewis wrote in Perelandra of the unfallen "Adam and Eve" on Venus - but that was science fiction.

And so does some JS WRITINGS seem to be to me.

The Bible does not say that Jesus DID NOT appear all over the world to Toltecs and Mayans and Siberians; but it does say that Heaven has received Him until the restitution of all things, which I feel has not happened yet.[/QUOTE]

The "other sheep" could simply be the Gentiles, Jesus did not preach to them in His ministry, save one incident of some Greeks who came to Jesus.

John 10:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Key words for our discussion is "they shall hear my voice". Yes there were a couple of special incidents inn the bible that Jesus talked with gentiles, but "they" collectively did not hear his voice. Another reason that the gentiles did not "hear his voice", is because Jesus was sent to the House of Israel, and from that people should the gentiles be taught the gospel, but not Jesus particularly.

Interestingly enought, and think about this, the people of the BOM were of the House of Israel. They were not from Judah (Jews), but they were from Joseph. So Jesus had an interest in them as well as the House of Israel in Jerusalem.

There are other places were his sheep are too, and it is plausible that he visited other places on the earth that have not come to our knowledge yet. Remember the lost tribes of the House of Israel.

The key is: they, the House of Israel, his sheep in several folds, will hear his voice and they shall evetually be one fold with one shepherd.

So the other sheep are not gentiles or Tokyo or Venus, because they are not of the House of Israel, but the BOM people in the America's, yes, they are of the House of Israel.

 

[Peter1000]

And yet all other forms of Egyptian have been found and deciphered. It's impossible to find what never existed.
Science has nothing to do with an angel of light---2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

How could you possibly make such a declarative statement that "all forms of Egyptian have been found and deciphered. Scholars with 50 years experience in the tombs of Egypt would not dare to make such an absurd statement.

I know you want to prove Mormonism false, but when you make such silly statements, it jus makes you look false.

It's called the bible. The tablets were written by God, the first set was broken by Moses when he saw the Israelites worshipping another God---the 2nd set He brought down the mountain in the sight of all the people, amongst whom were the mixed multitude, so not only all the Jews saw them.

Many people saw the "ten commandments" on tables of stone, but only a very few got to handle them and see the writing. The tablets were put in the arc of the covenant, and the arc was in the Holy of Holies. The only man that could go into the Holy of Holies was the High Priest. So very few chosen people saw the tablets up close and personal. (or even the original 5 books of Moses also in the arc of the covenant. Very few people saw or hefted these originals. So says the bible, unless you can show me a scriptures that proves me wrong.

What we have now is what Jesus and the disciples and all first Christians had. They never declared the scriptures insufficient for our salvation, just the opposite. ENOUGH of the scriptures from the Dead Sea scrolls have been shown to be 99.9% the same as what we have today---and those date to 250 years before Christ. Nothing that JS wrote was needed for our salvation. If your faith were in God, you would not have JS and your church would not exist, nor would your priesthood. You must maintain him as your dictator of doctrine in order to keep the church going---no JS---not believes no church no priesthood. All other Christians, except for the Catholics, if their founders or heads were proven false---their believes still stand for they are found in the bible. There are differences in interpretations of what is there, but they are there---yours are not. The Pope is the final word for Catholics, JS the last word about the bible and your new prophet may come up with something different (like polygamy).

What has this got to do with the BOM people in the Americas. They were of the House of Israel and they needed prophets of God too, just like the rest of Israel. Their words are written in the BOM.

Again your 99.9% accurate for dead sea scrolls is impressively misleading. You must know that except for the book of Isaiah, most of the other books in the dead sea scrolls only amount to a fraction of the whole book . Which amounts to maybe 20% of the bible. (I could be wrong about the %) It is certainly no where near 100%.

 

[Peter1000]

Other sheep are all those who hear His voice and follow---all others, of course, being Gentiles.

Your other sheep, the gentiles, were not of the House of Israel. They did not hear his voice. They heard the voice of the apostles, but not him.

At the least my interpretation of "other sheep" has more evidence of being true than your evidence of "other sheep". I agree it is controversial, but my interpretation is as good as yours.

Archeology certainly is in a position to say it and does! The Spaniards destroyed the pagan temples of human sacrifice and it was still going on so you are the one being silly for not being able to see the obvious. There is a ton of info about them even back at the time of JS. Spain and other countries had reams of stuff from the time of their explorations. A lot of libraries in the US also had some of those books, the ones that scholars wanted, anyway. The Mayan are who part of my family descended from in Honduras and I did spend some time in research of them. Even down to Costa Rica, where I was born, there.

You are aware that there have be archeological events that have uncovered about 3% of the Ulmec and Mayan cities. 3% is nothing. So no Archeology can only say a small portion of what the Ulmec and Mayan peoples were all about. JS was shown a thousand times more.

There certainly were not tons of information about the Mayan people in New York in 1829.
Yes, in dusty old out of sight libraries of Spain and even Brittain, but nobody was reading about them and ony a few scholars knew anything in 1829, 300 + years after Cortez. It was pretty much a forgotten place until an explorer John Lloyd Stephens came out of Central America and wrote a 2 volume book about the area in 1842, was there any interest in that region again. In 1842, the indian was considered lower than a dog, and to have such a high level of sophisticated society was laughable to the scholars, and JS was in their sights as the stupidest person in the world for saying that there was descendents of Indians that one time dotted the land with millions of peope and cities of cement and rich with intelligence and writings and religion, the Christian religion, that he was the laughing stock of the country.

Until Stephens comes out of the jungles of Central America and says, it is all true.

Archeology will eventually find JS knew a lot about these people, and if you live long enough, you too will be amazed and will have to choose whether to believe and be baptized or stay aloof of the truth.

If your Jesus had the power to go there---He apparently had no power over what the people did about His being there. Our Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years and not only the whole of the Middle East was changed, but the whole world within just the lifetime of the oldest disciple. Your Jesus, in 250 years, had no visible effect on the population of even one local tribe. So, he is either highly inept, or it just plain never happened. It's obviously not the same Jesus---the differences are many and have been described several times.

Since you only know a smidgen of anything Ulmec or Mayan, you can't say anything about what happened after Chrst visited the people of the BOM. So what you say is without knowledge, or truth.

 

[mmksparbud]

How could you possibly make such a declarative statement that "all forms of Egyptian have been found and deciphered. Scholars with 50 years experience in the tombs of Egypt would not dare to make such an absurd statement.

I know you want to prove Mormonism false, but when you make such silly statements, it jus makes you look false.

They have deciphered all 3 forms of Egyptian writing. They have found no other type of Egyptian writing. And when you claim a language that does not exist, it is you that sound silly and make you look false.

Many people saw the "ten commandments" on tables of stone, but only a very few got to handle them and see the writing. The tablets were put in the arc of the covenant, and the arc was in the Holy of Holies. The only man that could go into the Holy of Holies was the High Priest. So very few chosen people saw the tablets up close and personal. (or even the original 5 books of Moses also in the arc of the covenant. Very few people saw or hefted these originals. So says the bible, unless you can show me a scriptures that proves me wrong.

The point being that actually millions saw Moses come down the mountain with the tablets---very few ever saw any golden plates and there are records of them saying they saw them through "spiritual eyes"
God did not then take back the tablets, take them to heaven, or bury them. They were hidden by priests to prevent their capture and destruction by invaders many centuries later.

What has this got to do with the BOM people in the Americas. They were of the House of Israel and they needed prophets of God too, just like the rest of Israel. Their words are written in the BOM.

Again your 99.9% accurate for dead sea scrolls is impressively misleading. You must know that except for the book of Isaiah, most of the other books in the dead sea scrolls only amount to a fraction of the whole book . Which amounts to maybe 20% of the bible. (I could be wrong about the %) It is certainly no where near 100%.

The BOM is only true as far as the LDS are concerned. There is no proof that a whole tribe of Israelites came to the Americas---there is some writings found that indicate there were an occasional Hebrew that landed here with others--As I said, many think Columbus was Jewish and he certainly did have Jews on board and also the Spaniards had Jews. But nothing indicating some big tribe of them.
Isaiah is one of the most important books---and it definitely is 99% the same---that is enough to know that the rest of the books are virtually the same as today which means they are the same that Jesus read for they are dated from 250 years before Christ. Christ and the disciples never said anythi9ng about missing parts of the scriptures that are important to our salvation. The bible says we have all we need for our salvation. Anything else that might be missing, is of no real importance---it matters nothing to our salvation that David had more wars that he won written about in some other books.

Our God is able to keep His word intact and has---yours keeps loosing or hiding his.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your other sheep, the gentiles, were not of the House of Israel. They did not hear his voice. They heard the voice of the apostles, but not him.

At the least my interpretation of "other sheep" has more evidence of being true than your evidence of "other sheep". I agree it is controversial, but my interpretation is as good as yours.

No---you do not understand. People who have never heard the name of Jesus have heard His voice--they hear Him in their minds and heart and they follow. There are those in other countries who had dreams about Him, had messages that they followed and lead other to believe also. It is not a matter of my opinion or yours, but what actually happens, how God works.

You are aware that there have be archeological events that have uncovered about 3% of the Ulmec and Mayan cities. 3% is nothing. So no Archeology can only say a small portion of what the Ulmec and Mayan peoples were all about. JS was shown a thousand times more.

There certainly were not tons of information about the Mayan people in New York in 1829.
Yes, in dusty old out of sight libraries of Spain and even Brittain, but nobody was reading about them and ony a few scholars knew anything in 1829, 300 + years after Cortez. It was pretty much a forgotten place until an explorer John Lloyd Stephens came out of Central America and wrote a 2 volume book about the area in 1842, was there any interest in that region again. In 1842, the indian was considered lower than a dog, and to have such a high level of sophisticated society was laughable to the scholars, and JS was in their sights as the stupidest person in the world for saying that there was descendents of Indians that one time dotted the land with millions of peope and cities of cement and rich with intelligence and writings and religion, the Christian religion, that he was the laughing stock of the country.

Until Stephens comes out of the jungles of Central America and says, it is all true.

Archeology will eventually find JS knew a lot about these people, and if you live long enough, you too will be amazed and will have to choose whether to believe and be baptized or stay aloof of the truth.

They now have the above ground scans and satellites scans that they can see where there are hundreds mire stuff down there without even digging up the ground. Point being, when the Spaniards arrived---these people were still practicing human sacrifice, no archaeological evidence exists that there was some major change to their lifestyle at the time that this was supposed to have happened. If Jesus came and was here for many years as you say---He had absolutely no effect on anyone. That is not how Jesus works---He changes the world when He goes to work! There is no sign of Christianity before the Spaniards. I have no doubt whatsoever that JS will never be proven right about this. I trust what my God says in His word. What others imagine about the world has nothing to do with my salvation.

Since you only know a smidgen of anything Ulmec or Mayan, you can't say anything about what happened after Chrst visited the people of the BOM. So what you say is without knowledge, or truth.

I know one thing, my "smidgen" is volumes more than JS actually knew. What He says is not of God and guess what----even Satan and his angels know the history of this world---they were there. I know that when Jesus left this world, He went and sat down at the right hand of God and He then became our High Priest, that is what His word says.

 

[He is the way]

They have deciphered all 3 forms of Egyptian writing. They have found no other type of Egyptian writing. And when you claim a language that does not exist, it is you that sound silly and make you look false.



The point being that actually millions saw Moses come down the mountain with the tablets---very few ever saw any golden plates and there are records of them saying they saw them through "spiritual eyes"
God did not then take back the tablets, take them to heaven, or bury them. They were hidden by priests to prevent their capture and destruction by invaders many centuries later.




The BOM is only true as far as the LDS are concerned. There is no proof that a whole tribe of Israelites came to the Americas---there is some writings found that indicate there were an occasional Hebrew that landed here with others--As I said, many think Columbus was Jewish and he certainly did have Jews on board and also the Spaniards had Jews. But nothing indicating some big tribe of them.
Isaiah is one of the most important books---and it definitely is 99% the same---that is enough to know that the rest of the books are virtually the same as today which means they are the same that Jesus read for they are dated from 250 years before Christ. Christ and the disciples never said anythi9ng about missing parts of the scriptures that are important to our salvation. The bible says we have all we need for our salvation. Anything else that might be missing, is of no real importance---it matters nothing to our salvation that David had more wars that he won written about in some other books.

Our God is able to keep His word intact and has---yours keeps loosing or hiding his.

Egyptians speak a continuum of dialects.

From: Languages of Egypt - Wikipedia

 

[mmksparbud]

Egyptians speak a continuum of dialects.

From: Languages of Egypt - Wikipedia

I talking about the ancient ones---

 

[He is the way]

I talking about the ancient ones---

What makes you think there was only a few dialects in ancient times?

 

[mmksparbud]

What makes you think there was only a few dialects in ancient times?

There are many sites you can explore=---this is just one of them. Look it up yourself.
Not that you wi8ll agree with what any of them say.


There are three types of phonograms in hieroglypics: uniliteral or alphabetic signs, where one hieroglyph (picture) represents a single consonant or sound value; biliteral signs, where one heiroglyph represents two consonants; and triliteral signs where one hieroglyph represents three consonants. There are twenty-four herioglyphic signs in the Egyptian alphabet and these are the phonograms most commonly used. But since there was never a purely alphabetic system, these signs were placed alongside other phonograms (biliterals and triliterals) and ideograms. Ideograms were often placed at the end of a word (spelled out in phonograms) to clarify the meaning of that word and, when used in this way, we refer to them as "determinatives." This assists in two ways: the addition of a determinative helps to clarify the meaning of a particular word, since some words look similar or identical to each other when spelled out and written down only in the phonograms; and beacuse determinatives stand at the end of the word they can indicate where one word ends and another begins. (193)
Ancient Egyptian Writing

 

[Peter1000]

So do I, which has nothing to do with JS or Moroni.

It has to do with everything "if" Moroni is a true angel sent from the presence of God, and JS is a true prophet to restore the true church of Jesus Christ, as fortold by the bible.

 

[mmksparbud]

It has to do with everything "if" Moroni is a true angel sent from the presence of God, and JS is a true prophet to restore the true church of Jesus Christ, as fortold by the bible.

Bible says no such thing. That's just what y0u want to believe.

 

[He is the way]

There are many sites you can explore=---this is just one of them. Look it up yourself.
Not that you wi8ll agree with what any of them say.


There are three types of phonograms in hieroglypics: uniliteral or alphabetic signs, where one hieroglyph (picture) represents a single consonant or sound value; biliteral signs, where one heiroglyph represents two consonants; and triliteral signs where one hieroglyph represents three consonants. There are twenty-four herioglyphic signs in the Egyptian alphabet and these are the phonograms most commonly used. But since there was never a purely alphabetic system, these signs were placed alongside other phonograms (biliterals and triliterals) and ideograms. Ideograms were often placed at the end of a word (spelled out in phonograms) to clarify the meaning of that word and, when used in this way, we refer to them as "determinatives." This assists in two ways: the addition of a determinative helps to clarify the meaning of a particular word, since some words look similar or identical to each other when spelled out and written down only in the phonograms; and beacuse determinatives stand at the end of the word they can indicate where one word ends and another begins. (193)
Ancient Egyptian Writing

So you do not believe it is possible for a people to develop their own language similar to another language they once used? It does make sense to me.

 

[mmksparbud]

So you do not believe it is possible for a people to develop their own language similar to another language they once used? It does make sense to me.

However, what the Jews did during the Babylonian exile is a picture of what happens in a culture, esp. theirs. There were several languages spoken in both kingdoms. The Babylonians spoke Aramaic--the Jews learned Aramaic to the point they forgot their own language---the proof of that is in the Targums. They were copies of the scriptures by scribes, maintaining the same stringent rules regarding the copying of scriptures, these were translated by the scribes from Hebrew to Aramaic---however, what they always did, when the scriptures were read in the temple, first in the original Hebrew, then they would read them in the Aramaic. They never corrupted their own language with another, They were kept separate. These Targums date from the timer of the exile. Here is just one of them:
TgOnk Gen. 1-6

They did not change their own language but learned both, or just one. There was no reformed Egyptian.

 

[He is the way]

However, what the Jews did during the Babylonian exile is a picture of what happens in a culture, esp. theirs. There were several languages spoken in both kingdoms. The Babylonians spoke Aramaic--the Jews learned Aramaic to the point they forgot their own language---the proof of that is in the Targums. They were copies of the scriptures by scribes, maintaining the same stringent rules regarding the copying of scriptures, these were translated by the scribes from Hebrew to Aramaic---however, what they always did, when the scriptures were read in the temple, first in the original Hebrew, then they would read them in the Aramaic. They never corrupted their own language with another, They were kept separate. These Targums date from the timer of the exile. Here is just one of them:
TgOnk Gen. 1-6

They did not change their own language but learned both, or just one. There was no reformed Egyptian.

You said: "There was no reformed Egyptian."

Not in Egypt, but we are not talking about Egypt are we? We are talking about a language handed down and altered by the descendants of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites. It isn't like you would find that language in some other part of the world.