Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism

[JSRG]

No. Not irrelevant at all.
The Bible that we have has an obvious Damnationist bias. Who did that? The folks that "gave" us a Bible, obviously. Which doctrinal view of the final judgement did they hold?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

The scriptures that we use to defend UR are the ones that slipped past the editors. (correctores)

You mean the "correctores" that were mentioned in a quote that appears fake? I pointed out the reasons to believe that this quote wasn't authentic. If you're going to continue to base your argument on its supposed quote of Nestle, why don't you provide evidence that Nestle actually gave that quote, such as demonstrating exactly where in his works this quote can be found?

Then again, even if that quote is real and is correct, it still doesn't support your argument. Here is, again, the (most likely fake) quote you produced:

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

So what were the views which the church had just sanctioned in Nicaea? What was sanctioned at Nicaea was that the Father and the Son were of the same substance, in refutation to Arianism (there were other canons made, but they were largely of the ecclesiastical variety rather than actual theological considerations). So even if this quote was real and was accurate, the changes in question would have been done to promote Nicaean Christology, not anything regarding punishment.

 

[Saint Steven]

• Marcus Minucius Felix - Octavius 34-35 - (226-260 A.D.)

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be Restored For Punishment... Nor Is There Either Measure Nor End To These Torments. That Clever Fire Burns The Limbs And Restores Them, Wears Them Away And Yet Sustains Them, Just As Fiery Thunderbolts Strike Bodies But Do Not Consume Them"

.

Hard to imagine anything more sadistic and cruel than what is described in your post. Could you love a God that did that to your loved ones?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Unfortunately amigo every heterodox religious group around, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, UPCI, INC, WWCG etc. make the same empty claims that the "HOLY SPIRIT" supports, approves etc their particular group. Your claims can no more be supported than theirs. Logical fallacy "Unfalsifiable."

Ah, but our touchstone is the goodness of God, which is unimpeachable. And not only that, we have the resurrection of Christ as the guarantee that all shall be raised. So it's really a solid and straightforward deductive matter. Good God + He Saves + Resurrection = Saves All. Not that hard der Alte.

I've been reading this language for 37+ years.
πολλοι ερουσιν μοι εν εκεινη τη ημερα κυριε κυριε ου τω σω ονοματι προεφητευσαμεν και τω σω ονοματι δαιμονια εξεβαλομεν και τω σω ονοματι δυναμεις πολλας εποιησαμεν
και τοτε ομολογησω αυτοις οτι ουδεποτε εγνων υμας αποχωρειτε απ εμου οι εργαζομενοι την ανομιαν Matt 7:22-23

Very good, but without the Spirit it's still the dead letter.

I didn't know the meaning of a word was determined by one hyperbolic usage. I guess we must also assume Simon was literally a stone.

How is 'age' a hyperbolic usage? It's less than eternity. Can't hyperbolise eternity lol.

“everlasting” and “eternal” are defined as “neither had a beginning of existence, nor can ever cease to be what it is.”

That's all well and good, Origen maintains that the eternal is an attribute of God, and that we only gain eternity by virtue of His being in us. The everlasting fire therefore can only be 'of' God, and not something separate from Him. So as we know God is love, the eternal fire must be His essence/ presence of burning love.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hard to imagine anything more sadistic and cruel than what is described in your post. Could you love a God that did that to your loved ones?

I'm guessing Minucius Felix had a stoic upbringing, a distant and unloving father, and probably not a real warm and friendly guy...good name though!

 

[Der Alte]

Ah, but our touchstone is the goodness of God, which is unimpeachable. And not only that, we have the resurrection of Christ as the guarantee that all shall be raised. So it's really a solid and straightforward deductive matter. Good God + He Saves + Resurrection = Saves All. Not that hard der Alte.

Gobbledy gook doesn't really respond to or address my post. Unfortunately you have not provided any scripture to support your syllogism.

Very good, but without the Spirit it's still the dead letter.

Meaningless bloviation.

How is 'age' a hyperbolic usage? It's less than eternity. Can't hyperbolise eternity lol.

A finite period is less than eternity ergo hyperbolic.

That's all well and good, Origen maintains that the eternal is an attribute of God, and that we only gain eternity by virtue of His being in us. The everlasting fire can only be of God, and not something separate from Him. So as we know God is love, the eternal fire is His heart of burning love.

More meaningless bloviation. The point is Origen affirmed that aionios life "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed,"" is immortal" etc. Thus "eternal punishment" likewise "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed" and "is immortal" etc.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Gobbledy gook doesn't really respond to or address my post. Unfortunately you have not provided any scripture to support your syllogism.

These are axiomatic. God is good. Do you need scripture to support that?!!
Wow, basic stuff der Alte.

Meaningless bloviation.

If you say so. The letter kills, only the Spirit gives life. You do know that this is a criticism of phariseeism, I hope?

A finite period is less than eternity ergo hyperbolic.

Hyperbole is as exaggeration, not minimisation.

More meaningless bloviation. The point is Origen affirmed that aionios life "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed,"" is immortal" etc. Thus "eternal punishment" likewise "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed" and "is immortal" etc.

Yes, and the quality or attribute of 'eternality' is of and from God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Meaningless bloviation.

bloviate
/ˈbləʊvɪeɪt/

verb
INFORMAL•US

1. talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

Do you see a bloviated speck in my eye der Alte?

 

[Der Alte]

bloviate
/ˈbləʊvɪeɪt/
verb
INFORMAL•UStalk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.
Do you see a bloviated speck in my eye der Alte?

More meaningless bloviation which does not address the topic or my posts. I have no objection if you want to start a thread on the attributes of God.
The topic of this thread is "Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism" I quoted from Origen, who was a ECF, where said ECF multiple times defined "aionios" as eternal, everlasting etc. Now how does that reply to the topic? Since according to Origen, who OBTW is the UR-ite poster boy for UR, "aionios life" means as life that "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed,"" is immortal" that same definition must apply to "aionios" in "aionios kolasis" thus refuting universal reconciliation. The topic of this thread.
Do you have any response which applies directly to what I have posted here versus more bloviation on the attributes of God?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

More meaningless bloviation which does not address the topic or my posts.

Thank you for illustrating the definition of bloviation by your reply.

The topic of this thread is "Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism" I quoted from Origen, who was a ECF, where said ECF multiple times defined "aionios" as eternal, everlasting etc. Now how does that reply to the topic? Since according to Origen, who OBTW is the UR-ite poster boy for UR, "aionios life" means as life that "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed,"" is immortal" that same definition must apply to "aionios" in "aionios kolasis" thus refuting universal reconciliation. The topic of this thread.
Do you have any response which applies directly to what I have posted here versus more bloviation on the attributes of God?

The response I gave was that there is no problem with aionios meaning eternal, whether in Origen or elsewhere. However, it is context-dependent, and cannot be translated as eternal every time. Other common translations are 'age' and 'world', depending on context. This is indisputable.

Where it is rendered 'eternal', it is signifying an attribute of God, as it is also axiomatic that only God is eternal. And since we have assurance that God is love and God is good, a conclusion cannot be reached that sinful man is tortured forever. So I can only surmise that the primitive fathers on this matter were likely engaging in rhetorical and pedagogical practices such as oeconomy for affect.

Now, I don't agree with that approach, but I see it's easy to be tempted into 'fire and brimstone' preaching with certain types who don't respond to the revelation of grace, honour and love.

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for illustrating the definition of bloviation by your reply.

Wrong! But that is not unusual.

The response I gave was that there is no problem with aionios meaning eternal, whether in Origen or elsewhere. However, it is context-dependent, and cannot be translated as eternal every time. Other common translations are 'age' and 'world', depending on context. This is indisputable.

Wrong again, nothing but your unsupported opinion. I have often heard that "'aionios' only means 'eternal' if it refers to God or His attributes. etc" The problem with that is not nobody, not no how has ever shown a study by a lettered Greek scholar, or two, who provides scholastic evidence to back up his study.
As I have shown in my aionios/aion thread aionios is clearly defined as eternal in at least 24 verses and by at least 22 ECF.
How do I explain the fact that in five, and only five, occurrences in the NT is "aionos" translated as world? The other 67 times it is translated "eternal"/"everlasting?" Figurative! Much as the Greek word "kosmos" which means world is used at least 14 times to refer to something which could not be the entire planet. Hyperbole'.

Shrewd Manager"Where it is rendered 'eternal', it is [1] signifying an attribute of God, as it is also [2] axiomatic that only God is eternal. And since we have assurance that [3] God is love and God is good, a conclusion cannot be reached that sinful man is tortured forever. So I can only [4] surmise that the primitive fathers on this matter were [5] likely engaging in rhetorical and pedagogical practices such as oeconomy for affect." ​

#1 and #2 Nothing but your unsupported opinion.
#3 Bleeding heart sentimentalism.
#4 and #5 Speculation and unsupported bloviation.

Now, I don't agree with that approach, but I see it's easy to be tempted into 'fire and brimstone' preaching with certain types who don't respond to the revelation of grace, honour and love.

More of same. Your sentimentalism, speculation, assumptions, presuppositions and border line ad hominems do not refute or disprove anything I have said.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Shrewd Manager"Where it is rendered 'eternal', it is [1] signifying an attribute of God, as it is also [2] axiomatic that only God is eternal. And since we have assurance that [3] God is love and God is good, a conclusion cannot be reached that sinful man is tortured forever. So I can only [4] surmise that the primitive fathers on this matter were [5] likely engaging in rhetorical and pedagogical practices such as oeconomy for affect." #1 and #2 Nothing but your unsupported opinion.
#3 Bleeding heart sentimentalism.
#4 and #5 Speculation and unsupported bloviation.

Looky here, the following testifies against you:

1. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (Jn 17:3)
   
2. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Tim 1:17)
   
3. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 Jn 4:7)

Bleeding heart sentimentalism lol. Sounds more like someone has a phd in bloviation to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Looky here, the following testifies against you:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (Jn 17:3)

1. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Tim 1:17)
2. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 Jn 4:7)

Bleeding heart sentimentalism lol. Sounds more like someone has a phd in bloviation to me.

[/QUOTE]
Exactly how is this supposed to address my post?
I like your quote of 1 Tim 1:17 it shows conclusively that "aionios" means "eternal" versus the nonsensical term "age during."
The King eternal [aionios] ...immortal. And OBTW it is translated "King eternal" in the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation of the NT.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Der Alte]

The everlasting fire is unquenchable. It will destroy the old man, the sin, the doubt, the despair, the decay. God will mete out a life sentence to the dead.

Please quote a verse, 2 or more would be better, which clearly and unequivocally states this?

 

[Saint Steven]

God is good.

Yes. And hell is the polar opposite of that. There is no hell in the love of God.

Psalm 36:7
How priceless is your unfailing love, O God! People take refuge in the shadow of your wings.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Yes. And hell is the polar opposite of that. There is no hell in the love of God.

• Saint Cyprian of Carthage - The Treatises of Cyprian - Treatise 5 (V) -
An Address to Demetrianus - 24.
(200-258 A.D.)
"An Ever-Burning Gehenna Will Burn Up The Condemned, and A Punishment Devouring With Living Flames; Nor Will There Be Any Source Whence At Any Time They May Have Either Respite Or End To Their Torments.
Souls With Their Bodies Will Be Reserved In Infinite Tortures For Suffering."
• Saint Justin Martyr - The First Apology of Justin - Chapter 52 - (100-165 A.D.)
"For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, And Shall Send Those Of The Wicked, Endued With Eternal Sensibility, Into Everlasting Fire With The Wicked Devils."

• St. Irenaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies 4:28:2 (130-189 A.D.)
"Thus also The Punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise his advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; Being Not Merely Temporal, But Eternal. For to whomever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire” [Mt 25:41],
These Will Be Damned Forever!"
• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus - Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 3.
(170–235 A.D.)
3. ..... "And To The Lovers Of Iniquity Shall Be Given Eternal Punishment. And The Fire which is Un-quenchable and Without End Awaits These Latter, and a certain Fiery Worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, But Continues Bursting Forth From The Body With Unending Pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; No Death Will Deliver Them From Punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them."
• Clement of Rome - (35-99 A.D.)
''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, Nothing Will Rescue Us From Eternal Punishment.''
• Second Clement 5:5
''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord,
while we have yet time for repentance.''
• Second Clement 8:4
''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.''
• Second Clement 8:5
• Justin Martyr - First Apology of Justin - God's Care for Men - Chapter 28 (XXVIII)
(100-165 A.D.)
"For among us The Prince of The Wicked Spirits is called The Serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into The Fire with his host, And The Men Who Follow Him, And Would Be Punished For An Endless Duration, Christ Foretold."

 

[Der Alte]

...
How is 'age' a hyperbolic usage? It's less than eternity. Can't hyperbolise eternity lol....

Allow me to explain how hyperbole works. I say someone is as big as a house. They are not literally that big, I have exaggerated, ergo hyperbole. "Aionios" means "eternity" so using it to refer to something less than eternity is hyperbole,.

 

[returntosender]

• Saint Clement - Second Clement - (35-99 A.D.)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds Are Punished With Terrible Torture In Unquenchable Fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'

.

I appreciate the work you did putting this topic together and I am sorry it was thrown into a ditch to be trampled on by a few disgruntled universalists.
I am sure many found it very enlightening.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Allow me to explain how hyperbole works. I say someone is as big as a house. They are not literally that big, I have exaggerated, ergo hyperbole. "Aionios" means "eternity" so using it to refer to something less than eternity is hyperbole,.

Aion means eon, which is a finite indeterminate duration - an age or epoch. It may connote eternity in the appropriate context, which would be a hyperbolic sense, usage or rendering. If you set your mind on things aboveliation, you'll be able to avoid the things belowviation.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I appreciate the work you did putting this topic together and I am sorry it was thrown into a ditch to be trampled on by a few disgruntled universalists.
I am sure many found it very enlightening.

Thank you.

The Quotes of The Holy Church Father Speak For Themselves.

.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I appreciate the work you did putting this topic together and I am sorry it was thrown into a ditch to be trampled on by a few disgruntled universalists.
I am sure many found it very enlightening.

It's so endearing when people engage in indirect insults. But what's really surprising is how you think threats of eternal damnation can be 'thrown in a ditch'. Is there something lofty and noble about the 'buy our product or burn forever' message? Or is it the pretty pictures of the fathers and the stylish delivery of the damnation message that so inspires you? Interested in where you see the holiness in damnation.